Oculus Rift Development Kit 2 announced, up for preorder (based on Crystal Cove)

I'm probably going to call it a day on my video uploads, although I'll be back tomorrow. My internet connection has been flaking out all day, I wonder if AT&T is throttling my connection because it's the end of the month.

In any case, some notes on the metroid video I posted last page. I typed this up for another forum, so I'll just quote myself:

Some things to note: This wraps around your periphery in VR, so a lot of the screen isn't actually visible. There is more pop-in in these recordings than I see in VR. Really, when I'm looking forward, I only see as far as the edge of Samus' mask extends. This makes seeing it in VR a bit better than what you see on the screen, as you're seeing too much of the "magic" pulled back. The popping-in world is only noticeable if I'm looking around

The edge controls are god-awful in VR. Moving to the edge of the screen to move your body just feels terrible in VR. It's what keeps me from playing more. None of the control schemes feel right. It actually highlights a lot of the ways in which VR control needs to differ. I need another thumb stick to rotate my body, or I need body tracking, or something. You want as much decoupled as you can. I use the basic control method because it has the biggest bounding box, it makes me feel like my aim is decoupled from my gaze, but I really need to decouple my body orientation from my aim as well. It's soooo close to being right.

It's easy to lose the sensor bar in VR, which is a problem with pretty much every wii game in VR. You might notice the screen jumping back numerous times in the video. I'm doing that by hand, by clicking an Xbox thumb stick in my lap. It resets the head calibration, because the thing is subject to a lot of drift in tridef 3D. If I just stand still and look left and right a bit, I'll eventually be looking to my left when I look forward. Hence the need to reset the orientation. Despite being able to reset the orientation, it's natural for your body to unconsciously drift towards the direction you think it should be facing. I'm basically constantly fighting it, as my natural instinct is to basically turn in my chair without realizing it. In VR, with the headset on, all concepts of orientation outside of the game vanish. It's only a few minutes before I'm no longer facing the wii sensor bar and the game basically breaks. Capturing this video was a constant fight for me.

Despite all this, there are times when everything clicks, and it's basically that Nintendo On video from several years back. It's very compelling. I wish I could play a full metroid game like this, with the faults I'm describing eliminated. I tried to show off some of the cooler aspects of VR with the video, like firing in a different direction than I'm looking. I don't know if it's noticeable, but when I'm doing the platforming, I can actually look down at where I'm landing, making it easier to judge my jump. The subtle improvements in camera control in every game - even 2.5D stuff like Sonic Colors - is a huge improvement in every game, across the board. We evolved to use our necks to adjust our "cameras," not our right thumbs or whatever. Nothing will ever feel as natural as this. It is, in a word, perfect.

Not to be full of myself, but our own mod for Half Life 2 works the way I'm saying I wish Metroid Prime worked. Having two thumbsticks on each hydra, and each hydra providing markerless motion tracking, lets us decouple aim from gaze from body orientation, while also eliminating the need to be facing a certain direction IRL in order to do limb tracking.

Luckily, I think HL2 is an amazing game. I would kill to see someone try and make a metroid prime mod in the source engine, so all these kinds of improvements could be brought over to it.

Once you play with VR, these faults become a lot clearer and, while Metroid Prime might look like our mod superficially, these changes are enormous.

I have to admit it's so cool seeing the enemies from metroid in front of you, though. They're like... right there. And life sized. And you feel like you can reach out and touch it. But instead you just blast the fucker away with your arm that actually looks and feels like your arm.

Also, the low resolution doesn't really hurt these gamecube games, as the effective resolution per eyeball of the rift is the resolution the gamecube ran at. Not being able to see the entire screen is more of a problem, but things like text and draw distance and all that stuff are fine. It makes these gamecube games some of the best around for VR, actually. Like F-Zero GX? VR is totally my preferred way to play that game now, it works so incredibly well in VR.

Samus' helmet in Metroid Prime works terrifically. It is rendered in front of your eyes, like an actual mask, and it remains stationary in space, so you can look around and see the map or your life bar. It's actually one of the best VR HUDs I've seen. Really makes you feel like you have a big space helmet on (albeit a glass dome rather than Samus' normal helmet).

A nice departure from running things made for resolutions in the thousands with text that is unreadable.
 
Metroid Prime and F-Zero GX are two of my favourite games...I'm trying to stay on the fence, not click pre-order, okay?! :P
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if you bought a shield, how on earth is getting a DK2 even a question

you know what to do



god damn they better post some updates soon because I'm losing my mind. every hour of July until it arrives is going to suck
 
Well, in terms of features and the implementation of those features, I imagine the DK2 is pretty close to the final consumer version, with the main differences being design and performance/resolution, etc. So, assuming that's true, the DK2 would continue to work perfectly fine and wouldn't simply become obsolete or unusable once CV1 launches. I sure as hell hope it doesn't, anyway.. I'd like to go a couple more years before I have to buy another one.
 
if you bought a shield, how on earth is getting a DK2 even a question

you know what to do



god damn they better post some updates soon because I'm losing my mind. every hour of July until it arrives is going to suck

You know what's gonna suck even more? Getting the DK2 and realizing that there's no content for it because everyone has to get theirs and update their builds with the new rift drivers before they rerelease it... and then realizing that a lot of the demos you enjoyed aren't been actively updated anymore.

But if you're a dev working on VR stuff, it's fine.
 
Well, in terms of features and the implementation of those features, I imagine the DK2 is pretty close to the final consumer version, with the main differences being design and performance/resolution, etc. So, assuming that's true, the DK2 would continue to work perfectly fine and wouldn't simply become obsolete or unusable once CV1 launches. I sure as hell hope it doesn't, anyway.. I'd like to go a couple more years before I have to buy another one.

We honestly don't know if any of this is true or not. I would not recommend telling users to buy the DK2 with the assumption that it will still be usable when the consumer model launches.
 
Cool, I'll be interested to hear how it turns out. Obviously it's not the best game for VR, but it'd be interesting to know if the environments hold up to stereo rendering.
I can say Xenoblade works pretty great with NVIDIA's 3D. Some UI stuff being on a flat plane keeps it from being perfect, but the world is fine. The only Rift videos I've seen of Xenoblade didn't seem to actually be rendering stereo views, though.
 
You know what's gonna suck even more? Getting the DK2 and realizing that there's no content for it because everyone has to get theirs and update their builds with the new rift drivers before they rerelease it... and then realizing that a lot of the demos you enjoyed aren't been actively updated anymore.

But if you're a dev working on VR stuff, it's fine.

Not exactly right there. I'll be enjoying all my time with Elite: Dangerous. Frontier Developments have already stated they have full integration with the DK2 since they were one of the 100 key developers. I think the current build, PB 2.02 actually supports the DK2 already but of course DK2's aren't out yet for those who preordered.

I'll be jumping in as soon as I get my DK2.
 
And iirc, any content created with the 0.3.x SDK works with DK2 in "compatibility" mode, just without positional tracking and other new features.

So there should be plenty to tinker with if you get a DK2.
 
You know what's gonna suck even more? Getting the DK2 and realizing that there's no content for it because everyone has to get theirs and update their builds with the new rift drivers before they rerelease it... and then realizing that a lot of the demos you enjoyed aren't been actively updated anymore.

But if you're a dev working on VR stuff, it's fine.

Fair point, being a long-time PC user though, I understand how these things are, especially in the early stages. If you go in purchasing a DK2 expecting flawless VR from the get go, it seems fairly obvious that you'll come away disappointed. As something to tinker around with once in awhile, mess around in some select apps/games, it seems alright from what I've read.

One thing though, for those who have the device, what is your setup like, environment-wise? Currently my PC is setup on my coffee table and I typically play on my couch; would this be acceptable, or is sitting in a desk/chair preferable? Cheers.
 
And it's bought, Lol.

Thanks for all the help with answering my irritating questions, guys. Best of luck to all devs currently working on the platform.
 
what is your setup like, environment-wise?

I've cleared a 5'x5' space in my bedroom in order to give myself ample room to move around in. I want to be able to swing my head, body and arms in all directions without hitting anything because I know eventually, maybe sooner rather than later, I'll want some sort of motion control system to go with my DK2. I also want to be sure that my head has a large enough radius so that I'm not afraid of smacking it into anything. I also have a typical office chair without arms that allows me to spin around freely.

Other than that, I have a small tripod that will sit on the edge of my desk to mount the camera on until I can get a ceiling mount put together. I eventually want the camera up high and aimed down at an angle so as to capture as much of my movement as possible. I also want to be able to capture myself both sitting and standing. We'll see how that goes.
 
I've cleared a 5'x5' space in my bedroom in order to give myself ample room to move around in. I want to be able to swing my head, body and arms in all directions without hitting anything because I know eventually, maybe sooner rather than later, I'll want some sort of motion control system to go with my DK2. I also want to be sure that my head has a large enough radius so that I'm not afraid of smacking it into anything.

Other than that, I have a small tripod that will sit on the edge of my desk to mount the camera on until I can get a ceiling mount put together. I eventually want the camera up high and aimed down at an angle so as to capture as much of my movement as possible. I also want to be able to capture myself both sitting and standing. We'll see how that goes.

Wicked man, thanks for giving a detailed description. Sounds like something similar space-wise to one's (theoretical) Wii/Kinect setup then, more or less. Sounds good.
 
Valve officially added VR support to HL2 a long while ago. Their support is basically little more than head tracking support, though. In reality, their HL2 support was little more than a learning exercise to get familiar with VR.

We are making a full VR mod to supplement Valve's support. Our mod does a lot, like decoupling your gaze from your body orientation from your aim (so you can, say, walk north, look west, and fire east all at the same time, independently of one another), builds in floating huds (because HUDs don't really work in VR), rescales the world (because the scale in HL2 is really, really off), and soon enough, we'll add foot tracking for stuff like the Virtuix Omni and Cyberith Virtualizer along with PrioVR support and Sixense STEM support. We're also working on adding in Steam Controller support.

a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH3v2VrCZ9Q

Have you guys experimented with the Movement system the Cloud Head Games developers have in their game? Can you even work something like that into your Half Life mod?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SMTUsvq7iY

BTW it was your Half Life VR mod that finally convinced me to build my PC for my eventual DK2 purchase.
 
Have you guys experimented with the Movement system the Cloud Head Games developers have in their game? Can you even work something like that into your Half Life mod?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SMTUsvq7iY

BTW it was your Half Life VR mod that finally convinced me to build my PC for my eventual DK2 purchase.

We've experimented with this, but long story short, Half Life 2 wasn't really built for this sort of motion. It will work very well with games built around it, however.

So someone clued me in that tridef has a zoom feature mapped to numpad +. Since the GCN controller has 3 shoulder buttons and the Xbox pad has 4, I used the extra shoulder button as a + toggle. When I press it in game, the screen shrinks down and appears in front of me like a floating window. This makes all the cutscenes and text in Windwaker comfortable to view in VR, making the whole game effectively VR compatible. I'm buying the sail now, and then I'm going to start recording some WW footage. I can't believe how well this game works in VR.

EDIT: The only draw back being 30 FPS. I really am lucky to show no effects of VR sickness even at very low framerates.
 
I can say Xenoblade works pretty great with NVIDIA's 3D. Some UI stuff being on a flat plane keeps it from being perfect, but the world is fine. The only Rift videos I've seen of Xenoblade didn't seem to actually be rendering stereo views, though.

Interesting. Yeah, I'd turn the UI elements off for sure, if only to have a clearer view of the whole world (which of course means battles wouldn't work), but it's nice to know that the other visuals can hold up. I wonder if head rotation in the Rift would affect anything.
 
Will games like Snow and Kairo and the other VR enabled games listed on Steam work with the DK2?
All DK1 games will work with the DK2. The only thing missing will be the new DK2-specific features like positional tracking. DK2-enabled games may or may not work with DK1, depending on whether those features can be turned off.
 
All DK1 games will work with the DK2. The only thing missing will be the new DK2-specific features like positional tracking. DK2-enabled games may or may not work with DK1, depending on whether those features can be turned off.

This isn't true. Games made with the old version of the SDK will not work with the DK2. They will need to be updated.
 
This isn't true. Games made with the old version of the SDK will not work with the DK2. They will need to be updated.
Is the new SDK API so different that a simple rebuild would not be enough? I was reading and saw the latency tester API is different, but the SDK documentation does not even TALK about the latency tester anymore.
 
Hey guys, just throwing a question out there as a possible buyer of the consumer edition, what is the performance impact on running a game on the Oculus as compared to running it at a standard 1080p resolution. Is the framerate halved because of the 3D or is there some sort of advanced technique at play here?
 
Hey guys, just throwing a question out there as a possible buyer of the consumer edition, what is the performance impact on running a game on the Oculus as compared to running it at a standard 1080p resolution. Is the framerate halved because of the 3D or is there some sort of advanced technique at play here?

People are saying about a 10 to 20 percent hit on the frames. I guess it'll depend on optimizations.

Right now for Elite Dangerous, there is a 50% hit on frames when using the Rift which is pretty substantial.
 
Hey guys, just throwing a question out there as a possible buyer of the consumer edition, what is the performance impact on running a game on the Oculus as compared to running it at a standard 1080p resolution. Is the framerate halved because of the 3D or is there some sort of advanced technique at play here?

I believe framerate is almost halved, yes. Probably like a 30-40% hit, really. Do consider that the first consumer version is certain to use a higher resolution and you'll probably want not 30 or 60 fps, but 75-90. Basically, VR is probably going to require a pretty good PC for the first years... maybe until we have pupil tracking.
 
Hey guys, just throwing a question out there as a possible buyer of the consumer edition, what is the performance impact on running a game on the Oculus as compared to running it at a standard 1080p resolution. Is the framerate halved because of the 3D or is there some sort of advanced technique at play here?

This is asked every other page. Rift uses a technique that draws the scene from two different viewpoints, but the performance is not halved. The rendering of the second viewpoint is made reusing most of the data from the first. Only the vertex data needs to be recalculated at an estimated cost of between 10 and 20 percent, depending on the game of course.
 
This is asked every other page. Rift uses a technique that draws the scene from two different viewpoints, but the performance is not halved. The rendering of the second viewpoint is made reusing most of the data from the first. Only the vertex data needs to be recalculated at an estimated cost of between 10 and 20 percent, depending on the game of course.

I'm not going to pretend to understand the specifics of that, but I get what you're trying to say. Thanks for the response.
 
This isn't true. Games made with the old version of the SDK will not work with the DK2. They will need to be updated.
Read FAQ much?

OculusVR said:
Yes, your VR content developed with the original Oculus Rift Development Kit is compatible with the Oculus Rift Development Kit 2.

Maybe I'm crazy, but that sounds like it will work. And that's from the folks making the thing. I'll believe them over you, bub.
 
This is asked every other page. Rift uses a technique that draws the scene from two different viewpoints, but the performance is not halved. The rendering of the second viewpoint is made reusing most of the data from the first. Only the vertex data needs to be recalculated at an estimated cost of between 10 and 20 percent, depending on the game of course.
The Rift doesn't use that technique. But, GAMES can use a technique to draw a scene from two different viewpoints, and the performance of that will depend on the engine, correct?

As mentioned a couple of posts above, it may tend to be 30-50% in current games you can try and measure.

It may be possible to reduce the cost, but I think it would be overly optimistic to expect something as low as 20% in most cases.
 
This is asked every other page. Rift uses a technique that draws the scene from two different viewpoints, but the performance is not halved. The rendering of the second viewpoint is made reusing most of the data from the first. Only the vertex data needs to be recalculated at an estimated cost of between 10 and 20 percent, depending on the game of course.
You keep saying this, but all my experience in 3D rendering tells me it's not true. You just can't get that level of separation using reprojection. Where is it documented?
 
This is asked every other page. Rift uses a technique that draws the scene from two different viewpoints, but the performance is not halved. The rendering of the second viewpoint is made reusing most of the data from the first. Only the vertex data needs to be recalculated at an estimated cost of between 10 and 20 percent, depending on the game of course.
That's not really accurate, at all.

First of all, "the Rift" doesn't use any particular rendering strategy, software does. And it can choose whatever it wants. And from what I have seen, most software does in fact render two separate viewpoints.

The reason it often does not halve performance is primarily that it only needs to render (a bit more than, accounting for warping) half as many pixels per viewport.
 
That's not really accurate, at all.

First of all, "the Rift" doesn't use any particular rendering strategy, software does. And t can choose whatever it wants. And from what I have seen, most software does in fact render two separate viewpoints.

The reason it often does not halve performance is primarily that it only needs to render (a bit more than, accounting for warping) half as many pixels per viewport.

The info he's speaking of sounds like the difference between the rendering methods in various injection drivers like VorpX. Might be where his confusion stems from.

So funny thing happened to me last night after playing some Metroid Prime: because the thing is so subject to drift and I'm constantly readjusting, when I took the headset off, I felt like the world was slightly spinning to the left, which is the direction my headset kept drifting in. It lasted a few hours. Very strange feeling.
 
Read FAQ much?



Maybe I'm crazy, but that sounds like it will work. And that's from the folks making the thing. I'll believe them over you, bub.

Yes I have read the FAQ. You're misinterpreting it.

https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6967&p=96047#p96047

There are multiple incompatibilities both in hardware protocols and SDK. Devs REALLY need to update and recompile their existing games to 0.3 as soon as it become official. This will probably require a bit of code refactoring to make the game 0.3 compliant. Games ported to 0.3 can be run both on DK1 and DK2 with the caveat that on DK1 you will only get neck-modeling while the same build on DK2 will have full position tracking. Older games compiled with 0.2.5 will not run on DK2. They will probably not crash, but hardware negotiation will fail and the app will not be displayed properly or have any head tracking.

As Michael Antonov stated in his GDC talk, an early preview of 0.3 is scheduled in a couple of weeks with beta versions coming soon after. The hope is that starting in 0.3 we will be moving towards a more forward/backward compatible software model so that there is some degree of interoperability between various sdk and hardware versions. Certainly for CV1 we intend to support all previous incarnations of the headset.
 

I'll confirm - content from DK1 will not work at all in DK2 unless you're using the latest SDK. There was a huge discussion about this on the dev board.

It's little more than just recompiling your old code (unless you want to account for positional tracking, in which case your code will need to be refactored) but there will, without a doubt, be a number of demos that fall through the cracks and never get updated.
 
Well, 0.3 is already out. If the demos were compiled using that, they should be good to go, yes?

I wouldn't say that I misinterpreted it so much as they were much too broad in their statement. They simply said "Yes, it will work", with no mention of a caveat regarding how the demo was compiled.

Most of the stuff I've looked at is right on the Oculus site, I imagine those would be the more obvious ones to get updated if they required it. Is there a way to tell what version it was compiled under?
 
How many devs are going to update their demos? I really want to try and show off Titans of Space, Rift Coaster, and all the other great demos. It would be a real shame if those classics don't remain playable.
 
How many devs are going to update their demos? I really want to try and show off Titans of Space, Rift Coaster, and all the other great demos. It would be a real shame if those classics don't remain playable.

A fair number, I'd expect. I'm personally hoping Dumpy gets updated, although if it doesn't, I'll always have my DK1.

I dunno if Rift Coaster will be updated, but there are a number of new roller coaster demos that will undoubtedly be updated. And there is always the possibility of a translation driver being created which will let you play DK1 demos on a DK2.
 
Finally got wind waker on Mega, uploading the youtube version right now.

https://mega.co.nz/#!0EAVyD4C!Lpo25W3I_shbnW8Mmn4fLR7KqsyLgZpbkRTF6AbPcz8

This has a number of problems. First, I was using Dolphin's internal widescreen hack, which causes pop-in with NPCs and other objects. Someone developed an AR code widescreen hack that fixes this problem. Second, I had EFB to Texture enabled, which causes objects in the distance to appear very blurry. I actually played quite a bit not knowing I could fix this because I found the game to be so compelling. Third, it's not of a very interesting area of the game, just wandering around the town talking to people.

I'm recording another video right now of the first real dungeon with all these fixes, so the next video should be better.
 
I believe framerate is almost halved, yes. Probably like a 30-40% hit, really. Do consider that the first consumer version is certain to use a higher resolution and you'll probably want not 30 or 60 fps, but 75-90. Basically, VR is probably going to require a pretty good PC for the first years... maybe until we have pupil tracking.

Yeah. Biggest impact won't be the need to draw two views, it'll be the pixels.

Dk1 is 1280x800 @60Hz = 61.5m pixels per second

DK2 is 1920x1080 @75Hz = 155.5m pixels per second

CV1 is expected to be 2560x1440 @90Hz = 331.7m pixels per second

So over 2x the number of pixels to be calculated and drawn as you move from model to model. The consumer version is going to need a beast of a PC to run modern games well - don't forget you won't want frame drops so you'll want a cushion over that 90Hz too.
 
Hello fellow soon to be DK2 owners - not sure if this is the right thread to ask but I'm looking for a bit of advice on new hardware. My current system is an old (but reliable) i5 750 (OCed to 4ghz) and a gtx 670 dcii, and assuming I can't upgrade both, should I change the CPU or GPU? Devil's Canyon or gtx 780 (or similar)?

Thanks!
 
Hello fellow soon to be DK2 owners - not sure if this is the right thread to ask but I'm looking for a bit of advice on new hardware. My current system is an old (but reliable) i5 750 (OCed to 4ghz) and a gtx 670 dcii, and assuming I can't upgrade both, should I change the CPU or GPU? Devil's Canyon or gtx 780 (or similar)?

Thanks!

GPU for sure. Generally, it is much more important for games. A 780 should do a fine job with DK2. I've got a 780Ti and have no problems maxing out any current game at 1080p.
 
You keep saying this, but all my experience in 3D rendering tells me it's not true. You just can't get that level of separation using reprojection. Where is it documented?

Several game engines support a post 3d render method where the second view can be derived from the first using the depth buffer. Cryengine is one:

http://docs.cryengine.com/display/SDKDOC2/Sandbox+Stereo+Usage+and+Manipulation

It seems this method is not without problems though and artefacts are common, especially with transparent surfaces.

That's not really accurate, at all.

First of all, "the Rift" doesn't use any particular rendering strategy, software does. And it can choose whatever it wants. And from what I have seen, most software does in fact render two separate viewpoints.

The reason it often does not halve performance is primarily that it only needs to render (a bit more than, accounting for warping) half as many pixels per viewport.

You're right, it wasn't accurate. I didn't mean to imply that the hardware is involved in the rendering process in that way. I used "the Rift" as a simplification to answer his question about performance succinctly.

Anyway, I'd read information online and took it as gospel without double-checking. You're all correct when you say most games/demos are rendering the entire scene twice for Oculus Rift support. A post 3d technique is available through some engines if the developers want to use it, but it's not the preferred solution for most it seems. It must be a lot easier to just render out twice and take the performance hit.
 
How many devs are going to update their demos? I really want to try and show off Titans of Space, Rift Coaster, and all the other great demos. It would be a real shame if those classics don't remain playable.
Developers working on VR content are VR enthusiasts and will almost definitely want to update their previous work to support DK2 features, even if just for curiosity's sake.

Anyways, I went to the Goodwood Festival of Speed yesterday and Red Bull had a VR experience for a ride in a Red Bull Air Race. With the DK1, I cant say it was a great experience. It was also a half-assed little setup, with the headset attacked to a pilot helmet and just being quick swapped for new users, no real time being taken to make sure they are situated properly. Mine was actually not pressed that hard to my face and the FoV was quite poor as a result. It was an interesting ride, nice fairly believable cockpit setup and everything, telling people to look right and left to see the wing rudders in action. But the rolling to the left and right wasn't sitting right with me. Wasn't nauseas necessarily but I could feel it was messing with me and would have eventually left me sick feeling if I spent more time in it.
 
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