Brewster's Wallet
Member
Ahhh. Ok. The internet being the internet. Got it.
Well, I just think it's great to have new hires. Welcome Jason and Dan. Looking forward to what they bring to the site.
Giant Bomb #8 | It's a Hit!
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Well, I just think it's great to have new hires. Welcome Jason and Dan. Looking forward to what they bring to the site.
Good reply from Rorie.
I really really don't get the whole "Waaa waaa I didn't get a reply" thing.
I've applied to jobs 100x smaller than those jobs (in potential number of applicants) and never actually expected a reply unless it was for an interview.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
While I agree that they are valid concerns for this industry, saying that people unconditionally defend giantbomb seems to imply that giantbomb is in the wrong for hiring them.
Most places I've worked you only get a notice the position has been filled if you're an internal applicant.
I somewhat agree. He does a fantastic job, and he's a cool dude.
Very excited to see more of the new hires. They seem like decent folks. I understand there's a larger conversation going on in this thread, but I'd just like to say that regardless of your opinions on what you want from Giant Bomb, please don't cloud the moment. There are plenty of opportunities when which we can complain, but now is the time to rejoice!
Just got done listening to Maddy Myer's and Samantha Allen's latest podcast 'Sore Thumbs #7'. They talk about the hire as the news breaks at 00:22:00 and again around 01:10:00. They've been two of the more vocal critics around this issue (including this blog post which was linked last week and the rumour the hires were locked in prior to the job posting) and it's worth hearing their thoughts. There's obvious disappointment there, so don't immediately dismiss them because of the sarcasm and bouts of self-pity.
What I appreciated was, between the comments around the new hires' skin colour and sex, they did also address and acknowledge the larger issue of the sheer lack of jobs out there and how it exacerbates the former issue.
It must suck to want to be part of an industry you love, but having the job market dry up and landscape change just as you're getting started. To make matters worse, gaming as a pop culture cornerstone has really blown up in the last 10 years which has resulted in so many different types of people wanting to be part of it and finding that the 'founders' of the industry still have their jobs because said industry is only a few decades old. You now have even more people wanting even fewer jobs.
That frustration seems to then be channelled (arguably slightly unfairly) into a diversity problem. If a single open position receives 1000 applicants, 100 of which are women, chances are it'll get filled by a man. It's natural to then direct your anger towards sexism than dwell on how the odds were massively stacked against you.
To make matters even worse, a lot of the more diverse candidates are newcomers who are then pitted against the hordes of recently redundant veterans with fantastic resumes and portfolios.
tl;dr - situation sucks, don't become a journalist. Let these guys vent because they're between a rock and a hard place; and it ain't gonna get easier.
What I appreciated was, between the comments around the new hires' skin colour and sex, they did also address and acknowledge the larger issue of the sheer lack of jobs out there and how it exacerbates the former issue.
It must suck to want to be part of an industry you love, but having the job market dry up and landscape change just as you're getting started. To make matters worse, gaming as a pop culture cornerstone has really blown up in the last 10 years which has resulted in so many different types of people wanting to be part of it and finding that the 'founders' of the industry still have their jobs because said industry is only a few decades old. You now have even more people wanting even fewer jobs.
That frustration seems to then be channelled (arguably slightly unfairly) into a diversity problem. If a single open position receives 1000 applicants, 100 of which are women, chances are it'll get filled by a man. It's natural to then direct your anger towards sexism than dwell on how the odds were massively stacked against you.
To make matters even worse, a lot of the more diverse candidates are newcomers who are then pitted against the hordes of recently redundant veterans with fantastic resumes and portfolios.
tl;dr - situation sucks, don't become a journalist. Let these guys vent because they're between a rock and a hard place; and it ain't gonna get easier.
Well, that's only part of it.
Part of the reason people are angry is because some games writers can barely make ends meet and need to resort to patreon or the like, despite producing content they believe to be of high quality. They're frustrated when they see the full-time jobs going to the same people who had the full-time jobs before. There is a large measure of structural unfairness there.
That said, the industry is in a really weird spot. The number of positions is shrinking, so this is only going to get worse. You can call it cronyism, I suppose, but given that it impacts your livelihood (and possibly other people's), would you give a position to someone you know or to a stranger?
BUNTING1243
Banned
It is his job.He does a good job there though.
I dunno man, I see him talking about taking visiting premium members out for drinks and stuff like that. Seems above and beyond
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I'm just being equally reductive.
SteveWinwood
Member
Rorie is a really awesome dude.
njean777
Member
Yep, happens all the time. Most people complain and then we never hear anything ever again. They will move on to the next thing that is offensive and complain about that instead.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Sure, different viewpoints can be cool. It totally depends on the person. I don't know if a different ethnicity or gender than the guys on Giant Bomb even necessarily guarantees a different viewpoint on the topic of video games, though.
Either way, we have no idea who even applied for the job or who it was offered to. I see people almost framing this as a case of the Giant Bomb crew choosing a couple of white dudes over alternatives that would make the site more diverse. We do not know if that is the case at all.
Charles Alan Ratliff
Member
I don't know anything about Jason (Congratulations on the position!) but I do like Dan from what I have seen of him. My introduction to him was the butt Tumblr thing (I told the story of it when someone on the set of The Hunger Games brought up Google Glass. Just the story alone gets a lot of laughs.) and then the Peter Molyneux review video. I checked out his YouTube channel today along with the "Dan And His Dad Play" series and he seems like he'll be a great fit for Giant Bomb. Hopefully everything works out how everyone wants and we get some awesome content out of it. This is something Jeff and the guys have been wanting and needing for quite a while, and now it seems like all the pieces are there for them to start acting on some of the ideas and plans they've had but couldn't execute on due to limited staff.
I look forward to the next half of 2014.
I look forward to the next half of 2014.
It is, but the market is shitty, so there aren't really any proper entry-level positions and being a games writer isn't an incredibly marketable skill. A lot of the complaints seem to come from people who are pretty young.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
So I um have no freaking clue on whats going on even by reading some of these post. Can someone give me a quick TL;DR synopsis please?
Baptism by fire for Dan and Jason.
I think that people need to realize that no matter your sex or your skin color, that job would have been INCREDIBLY difficult to get.
For each women who applied and didn't get the job there was probably 10 white dudes who also applied and didn't get the job.
Again, it's not like there was 9 womens and 1 dude that applied and the dude got the job.
Especially if you consider than the whole process was most likely just a formatlity since, being part of CBSi, they have to publicly open every positions even if they already have somebody in mind.
For each women who applied and didn't get the job there was probably 10 white dudes who also applied and didn't get the job.
Again, it's not like there was 9 womens and 1 dude that applied and the dude got the job.
Especially if you consider than the whole process was most likely just a formatlity since, being part of CBSi, they have to publicly open every positions even if they already have somebody in mind.
EmCeeGramr
Member
This is something I was just thinking about, and I think it's part of the problem.
So many of the current "big names" in gaming journalism are still only in their 20s and 30s, because lot of them got into writing in their late teens or early 20s when anyone could become an intern or reviewer at Super Computer Vid Games Magazine or My Video Game Site That Got Bought By A Bigger One Dot Com in 1998 or whatever.
That means that you lose more journalists to becoming community managers and PR people for gaming companies than to retirement; the rest are going to be writing (and holding senior positions) for decades. So you have all of these guys who have 10-15 years of experience at a variety of major places and are thus insta-candidates for nearly any major position, and yet they're still in their mid 30s and not going to leave the journalism game any time soon.
ST2K
Member
Does this mean we get to skip the "I hate the new guy, he doesn't fit at all" stuff? Or do we have to do that too?
Fotheringay
Member
In almost every single one of Jeff's jar videos, the question is asked "Yo, how do I get into videogames journalism". And the answer is always, bust your fucking ass, and get super lucky. Print journalism has been dying for years, in every single form, and videogames journalism barely had any time comparatively to get off the ground. For decades sports journalism was seen as "beneath" real journalism, and yet it's high fucking literature compared to pretty much anything we see in the video games world. The idea that writing long-form essays is going to translate into any sort of real job in this day and age in the videogame industry appears to be absurd. I'm sure it's a horribly bitter pill for many to swallow, but this tactic of calling out a company for their hiring practices on twitter seems to be the dumbest fucking thing you could do for your future career.
Since there's two of them, we get to have "I hate Dan", "I hate Jason", and "I hate Dan and Jason".
Multiply that by Patrick and Alex and we've got our hate subscription paid well into 2016.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I think the same thing is said about movie criticism, with professional critics keeping their jobs at newspapers for decades, but the reality is that people will find new ways to make it work. Whether that's film podcasts or film video review shows.
Danny was able to go from working at Gamestop and being a fan of Jeff during the Gamespot days to getting a job at Gamespot UK, so I have to believe it's possible to break in. In the post Gerstmann-purge where they shut down the podcast and the original video show, they hired a lot of brand new people to fill those gaps straight from the community - including Carolyn Petit. So it IS possible. It's almost like striking oil, of course, because there are simply fewer outlets, but it is possible.
ab.aeterno
Member
What if they were just as qualified?
You know, it's really tiring that this keeps fucking getting said. EmCee already addressed this concern at length; you should maybe re-read that.
I honestly love Giant Bomb and the content they make, but seeing the sort of barbed bullshit that gets thrown around whenever issues come up is just fucking tiring. It's exhausting. It makes reading this thread a chore that inevitably just leaves me feeling depressed about how other gamers apparently must see me and other minorities, because asking for or talking about issues makes people Social Justice Warriors who hate white men and are obviously asking to be treated specially or differently instead of simply not being forgotten or excluded or whatever.
The amount of passive-aggressive remarks about this in this thread is honestly just depressing.
No one saw it coming!
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Well, at least no one has made the "video games are only about fun" argument yet. I mean, this could be a Tropes vs Women thread. lol
I thought the same thing.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I think they should pick the best person for the job and I hope Dan is that person.
But diversity in personality-driven sites isn't a bad thing and it is a shame, even if it's not in the best interest of the site, that the best person for the job couldn't be someone that would bring diversity in opinions and background to the crew. It speaks more to how homogenized the game writing industry is than it does anything else, really.
Eventually all these guys, including Jeff, Brad, Vinny, Dan, etc., will retire or move to other positions that aren't sitting around and talking about games. It's the nature of any industry. I just kind of wonder who will be reporting on games then, as there's very little young, known talent out there.
But diversity in personality-driven sites isn't a bad thing and it is a shame, even if it's not in the best interest of the site, that the best person for the job couldn't be someone that would bring diversity in opinions and background to the crew. It speaks more to how homogenized the game writing industry is than it does anything else, really.
Eventually all these guys, including Jeff, Brad, Vinny, Dan, etc., will retire or move to other positions that aren't sitting around and talking about games. It's the nature of any industry. I just kind of wonder who will be reporting on games then, as there's very little young, known talent out there.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
They're all on Twitch and Youtube. Really.
ItsTheNew
I believe any game made before 1997 is "essentially cave man art."
I can tell a lot of people here have never been involved in hiring and don't realize it's just more than "Show me your resume plz". I've skipped over many qualified people (all kinds of people including white males!) because I could tell their personalities wouldn't mesh with my team. Not only are these dudes good at writing/producing videos, but they also have a good rapport with the website with the past. Good for Dan and Jason.
Absolutely, and the problem gets even worse in multiple ways:
Very few industries have the 'luxury' of so many veterans applying to every single job opening they create. This creates an almost starstruck feeling where managers want to grab the known quantities first because it's what they've been taught.
Video game journalism is hurting. Bad. This causes publications to take fewer risks and encourage hiring sure things. To compound this problem, many outlets use CMS's where each article's advertising revenue is made available (either dollar value or through some relative fuzzy scale) to the editors. Having your creatives being so close to the bottom line invites an atmosphere of short term profitability - i.e. hire that 15 year veteran now.
And finally - contacts and sources. With journalism, experience isn't just better decision making. Those years in the industry mean you know which PR person to contact directly, you know which developer has a loose tongue after one too many whiskey neats, you know which publisher is going to waste your time.
Situation's fucked and ain't getting better. Don't be a journalist or work for Riot.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Man
If you ever needed a stronger example of the-few-among-many problem, it's definitely Youtube gaming.
And the vast majority of them are white males.
Dan and Jason are the most qualified for the job, having done quicklook style content for years. They'll be up and running with the crew with little to no training, which is good because Giant Bomb is way too small to have time for training.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Or be a streamer. lol
EmCeeGramr
Member
I keep imagining the state of the kind of games journalism that we currently know as it will exist 10-15 years from now, and it's a drastically smaller (but actually more diverse) group of people working away in a world of streaming syndicates, while the same guys that we have today (but Jeff Green old*) either working for game companies or still holding down the same Senior Editor/Editor-in-Chief positions.
*Everyone always jokes about Jeff Green being old, but he's only 53, which makes him not even that much older than the uppermost staff of most major newspapers when they get promoted
*Everyone always jokes about Jeff Green being old, but he's only 53, which makes him not even that much older than the uppermost staff of most major newspapers when they get promoted
Things are much easier today than they've ever been. You needed to live in the right place and be extremely lucky to get a job, now we have the internet.
Being a writer isn't an easy job and it probably never will be. This isn't exclusive to games.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Problem for me is that while I do agree that lack of diversity is a malaise on this industry, it's kind of hard for me to even really put this issue and the hires together. Firstly because I honestly don't think it's our business to probe too much into their hiring processes no matter how "personal" the site's tone is, and also it's hard for me to blame giantbomb for not promoting diversity because it's not really their prerogative.
It would be nice, and also just to see a relatively new person in the industry "break" into it, but for so long giantbomb seemed more like a gathering of industry veterans instead of something new and refreshing, even though I do think that the way they approach the site was pretty new and unique when they started. I think it's just hard for someone new to break into "big", mainstream game sites, especially seeing that it is an increasingly shrinking industry.
So I guess I agree that this issue should be broached, but the giantbomb diversity problem is more a symptom than the cause, and I don't really agree with people crucifying them for it, or even bringing it up as a problem they should personally solve.
Thing is, new people are breaking in, just not in traditional ways. New gaming coverage is pretty much all youtube personalities now, though that is dominated by white guys as well.
It would be nice, and also just to see a relatively new person in the industry "break" into it, but for so long giantbomb seemed more like a gathering of industry veterans instead of something new and refreshing, even though I do think that the way they approach the site was pretty new and unique when they started. I think it's just hard for someone new to break into "big", mainstream game sites, especially seeing that it is an increasingly shrinking industry.
So I guess I agree that this issue should be broached, but the giantbomb diversity problem is more a symptom than the cause, and I don't really agree with people crucifying them for it, or even bringing it up as a problem they should personally solve.
Thing is, new people are breaking in, just not in traditional ways. New gaming coverage is pretty much all youtube personalities now, though that is dominated by white guys as well.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
For a long time, he was one of the only people in game journalism who had a kid. That's how weirdly young everyone was. lol
I guess that's becoming a problem now. And with every PS4/Xbone being able to stream, Twitch is probably hard to find an audience with as well. But that's the same for *everything*.
The flip side is that it's better now more than ever to have a personal, unique voice. Because that is what helps you stand out and find your niche audience.
I honestly have no idea, since outside of Pewdiepie, Total Biscuit, Angry Joe, Francis, and Andrea Rene I don't really know any of them. But I guess that's 4 out of 5. lol
ShockingAlberto
Member
I'd love to see a breakdown of budgets and expenditures for Giant Bomb and Gamespot. Because there's not really a whole lot separating Giant Bomb from the Youtube LPers except budget, connections, credibility, and a studio space. Granted, those make huge differences, but I kind of wonder if all that stuff will simply vanish with time.
I also wonder if gaming sites are just more popular than we believe in our insular bubble of hyper-enthusiasts. I was thinking today, the people who have the most Far Cry 4 footage on the internet are twitch streamers. But the people who have the most popular Far Cry 4 footage might be IGN or Gamespot instead.
And out of that five, I've never heard of Andrea Rene.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
She went from youtube obscurity to now being the face of Gamestop in all those in store promo videos. lol
The numbers prove this to be true, of course. But yes, casual people who only follow one or two games only go to the big two sites.
So when are the boys gonna do a QL of Divinity: Original Sin? I feel like that type of game is up everybody's alley on the crew (par Dan and Jason because I don't know their tastes).
She's apparently the head of Escapist news.
She's apparently the head of Escapist news.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I don't mean that it's hard to find good things on Twitch or Youtube, it's actually incredibly easy. I could search for, say, Bayonetta LPs and find someone who's good and funny and I could, if I wanted to, follow all their content.
But I probably wouldn't because all that stuff feels so transient.
It seems like, outside of the few big names everyone knows, it's damn near impossible to float to the top. With corporation-backed sites, they push the door open, like Vox aggressively did with Polygon. I don't think that's going to happen that much anymore and that's going to create waves later where there's no new guard that learned from the old guard. With the newest generation of Youtube gaming, there's a few well-known names and a billion people who may have the talent but will never get the recognition.
It may be easy to have a voice, but it's hard for anyone to hear it among the chorus.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I think that's fair, but we live in a world where Rian Johnson made a movie for like 10 grand and is now directing a Star Wars movie. Of course, it's much more likely to fail as an indie filmmaker than it is to become the next big thing, but you can now shoot a film for a few hundred bucks and that could be all you need to get started in the industry.
The same goes for any creative endeavor, including game reviews and movie reviews. I like Red Letter Media not only because of their perspective, but because of their presentation. It's very easy to shit on the latest Transformers movie, but who thinks to review the original Transformers trilogy by watching all three movies simultaneously?
http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-the-transformers-series/
Are these guys making millions on their reviews? Probably not. But I'm sure they're doing fine.
Heck, same with people like AVGN, and Pat the NES Punk, and all the "retro game" reviewers that are out there.
I have no problems if they hired whoever all I care about is whatever makes the site better, I don't care if it was a women or a minority and I think emcee made a good point about there tons of qualified journalist and I will be listening to that podcast
If a female or someone else was the best qualified for the job than they should have been hired but there doesn't have to be an ulterior motive for who they hired.
I heard Vinny and Alex are filling those holes.
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