Stone Ocean
Member
A game having QTEs and a game BEING QTEs are not the same thing.
David Cage's games get attacked for "no gameplay" yet LucasArts games are worshipped
- Thread starter fvng
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Candescence
Member
Not all gameplay needs to be twitch gameplay. And the old Lucasarts games had more substance than any of Cage's games ever did.
Shenmue QTEs are far and few between. The majority of the combat was based in Virtua Fighter. Cage games are basically QTE: The Movie.
to be fair, Shenmue isn't just QTEs. it has pretty good melee combat sections and you can play Space Harrier (which is a better game than anything produced by Cage or LucasArts for that matter...)
No offense, but you kinda have no idea what you're talking about, which makes this topic hard to take seriously.
As others have already covered, Quantic Dreams's games basically strive to be interactive movies. I appreciate their games for what they are, but they're basically mindless, choose-your-own-adventures. LucasArt created traditional adventure games, meaning they had puzzles, and comparatively much more exploration and interactivity. Just because puzzles don't require reflexes or button mashing doesn't mean they're not gameplay.
That's not even comparing the quality of writing between the two developers...but I don't think we even need to go there.
Most of the Telltale games I played were much more like the old school adventure games (point and click to solve puzzles) but a "lite" version. I can't say the same for Indigy Prophecy (which I plodded through the first 30 mins before I knew it wasn't for me) or anything I've seen in video form since from Cage. Yuck.
No twitch gameplay doesn't mean no gameplay. Seriously, go back and play them. Many of the classic lucasarts games had serious puzzles, alternate paths and endings and funny rewards for straying off the beaten path. Heck, Maniac Mansion did choice and consequence better than any Quantic Dream game ever did.
Additionally, why was The Walking Dead considered GOTY when Cage's games generally featured the same mechanics? Insult to injury:
I would say that good writing and "charm" are part of it, since Clem and Guybrush are more interesting characters than anyone in Heavy Rain, which in turn leads to people being able to overlook shortcomings because of their fond experiences.
I'd also add potential audience to the list: Heavy Rain was a PS3 exclusive, which kept it from a lot of those classic Lucasarts adventure fans who might have responded to it better. It also made it easier for people who might not ever play it on their preferred platform boil the entire game down to "Press X to Jason".
The Walking Dead, being on just about every major platform I can think of (hell, even the vita!) only served to make it available to more gamer who are into that style of game.
your choices actually made an (interesting) difference in Heavy Rain.
I would say that good writing and "charm" are part of it, since Clem and Guybrush are more interesting characters than anyone in Heavy Rain, which in turn leads to people being able to overlook shortcomings because of their fond experiences.
I'd also add potential audience to the list: Heavy Rain was a PS3 exclusive, which kept it from a lot of those classic Lucasarts adventure fans who might have responded to it better. It also made it easier for people who might not ever play it on their preferred platform boil the entire game down to "Press X to Jason".
The Walking Dead, being on just about every major platform I can think of (hell, even the vita!) only served to make it available to more gamer who are into that style of game.
What are you trying to argue? Shenmue utilized QTEs as one small part of its overall gameplay mechanics. It had a robust fighting system, moderate amounts of exploration and freedom to tackle objectives. QD games funnel you through narrow sequences that are completely built around QTEs.
The rift between QD games and Shenmue is even greater than that between the former and LucasArts games, where you couldn't progress in the story unless you could solve the puzzle presented to you. Enough brute force in a game like Heavy Rain and you can advance.
I'm not sure the people criticizing Cage games are the same people worshipping LucasArts games, but yes, they're essentially modern big budget takes on the Adventure genre.
The Walking Dead gets praise, so I think it's more of people not liking David Cage in general for various reasons.
The Walking Dead gets praise, so I think it's more of people not liking David Cage in general for various reasons.
Banana Aeon
Member
Puzzles are part of gameplay.
A QTE is a cutscene with prompts.
A QTE is a cutscene with prompts.
dream
Member
I can almost buy that, but then I start thinking about how obtuse some of the puzzles in LucasArts (and especially Sierra) games were, and I'm not entirely sure that it's a net positive. Puzzles like, say, the the way you retrieve the mood ring in Sam and Max, or the way you make a moustache in Gabriel Knight 3 are "interactive," but they're so convoluted and purposely obtuse that the interactivity seems artificial to me.
But maybe it's just my perspective. I was always one to play adventure games for the stories.
Yeah, the walking dead was a laugh riot.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Also there was a sense of exploration and experimentation (with the puzzles and items) in Lucasarts games. Can't say the same about Heavy Rain.
The humour comment wasn't about TWD mr nitpick. It was more about Lucasarts games. Walking Dead isn't the only game telltale have made by the way. Some of them actually have humour as well!
The humour comment wasn't about TWD mr nitpick. It was more about Lucasarts games. Walking Dead isn't the only game telltale have made by the way. Some of them actually have humour as well!
RicoTheMad
Banned
How about games like Dark Seed and Dark Seed 2, among other non-comical adventure games out there? The problem with his games isn't the fact that they rely on story, it's the fact that they are not much else than that.
Adventure games have some measure of agency, there's puzzles, there's going back and forth between areas non-linearly usually.
There's bad adventure games out there too by the way, that suffer from similar issues to David Cage's games, which cause them to be panned as well.
In general I think some people are so focused on wanting to make games, that they don't consider if games are really the best media for their idea. Different media have strengths and weaknesses.
Consider those "story heavy" games that have no other redeeming features. Are their stories better or worse than the stories you enjoy on TV/FIlm/Books?
It's all about making the interaction meaningful to the player. Some games do it well, like The Last Of Us. Others... don't and then fall flat because that's the only thing they had going for them.
I don't even know how to approach this. Have you played KoToR? All the bits where you do combat is gameplay.
MaximusPayne
Member
Amazeballs
Member
Substance vs what can only be enjoyed during substance abuse.
FrostuTheNinja
Member
Also, I think people would have less issues if Quantic Dream's games controlled "traditionally".
That would because they are adventure games, not action-adventure games.
"twitch gameplay" is a defining point of the action genre. Not everything has to be action game. Forcing all games into one genre is harmful in the long run.
fvng
Member
FoA is a better experience overall, but this isn't about which is a better game. I'm baffled why you don't understand why games that suffer from the same lack of traditional 'gameplay' are being compared. Fate of Atlantis is a superior game, by far, that doesn't change the fact that the same complaints could be lodged at both of these games, and I LOVE LucasArts game
This is not always true in my experience in communicating with gamers
Right, but QTEs are being dismissed as decent gameplay mechanic
plasmawave
Banned
¡HarlequinPanic!;119083715 said:
Eh? There were plenty of moment you could take your time in HR.
velociraptor
Junior Member
Haven't played it but watching it on YouTube.
There is no 'gameplay'. You click some stuff and the players fight for you.
Cage's games aren't meant to be what people expect in terms of traditional gameplay. Deal with it and enjoy it for what it is or stfu and don't buy it. Don't understand the issue. I loved the shit out of Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain. Haven't played Beyond but I'll get around to it.
And we're done with this argument, thanks for your ignorance
MightyHedgehog
Member
Are people still so desperate to elevate Cage's cinematic mediocrity into something more valuable by trying to pick a fight with real decades-old adventure games? LucasArts stuff has actually interesting worlds to actually explore, interesting and often original characters to interact with, and interesting and even more often humorous writing to set it all up. On top of all of that, there's stuff in there that requires some thought to complete and things to go looking for unlike the dumb streamlined Cage shit which is really twenty-first century Dragon's Lair by comparison. David Cage produces fool's gold and nothing else so far...stuff that appears to have more ambition and value than it really has.
Polioliolio
Member
I really liked Heavy Rain. It was extremely cinematic, gave you the feeling you were playing a film, which was cool, even if you thought it was poorly written (as if you only watch Citizen Kane, bullshit, I know you watch Sharknado and that crap).
fvng
Member
Where is this kind of stuff in Heavy Rain? That's only the first act out of four, too.
I'm 1000% certain there were different paths in Heavy Rain, in fact I believe that was part of the novelty of the game's design
The reason you're finding hypocrisy and contradictory opinions is because you're reading the opinions of many as one. You can just as easily point out how some people dislike QTEs, while others liked music rhythm games which are nothing but QTEs. While there may be a bit of overlap between the two, those who are well formed in their opinions probably don't contradict that much. If someone is contradicting themselves, then their opinion isn't based entirely on the mechanic, but external attributes such as writing or whatever else.
There are no inherently good or bad mechanics.
It's a turn based RPG game based on D&D rulesets. That's like arguing Chess doesn't have gameplay because you take turns.
There are different paths in visual novels.
Nothing novel about it.
Heavy Rain just has higher production values
PhineBuyM3
Member
I've only played Heavy Rain, but judging from the comments this could apply to all his games. Cage tries to focuses more on story,characters, plot, and emotions. He fails at all of those things. People are then stuck with a game that has shit gameplay and a shitty story. A game like Telltale's The Walking Dead has an awesome story, so it's get a pass on having the gameplay it has.
fvng
Member
Yes but he is asking if there were branching paths in Heavy Rain, the answer is yes.
I was much more involved in Beyond's storyline than The Walking Dead where I basically didn't give a shit about any of the characters. The only thing I didn't like about Beyond was its non linear storytelling which was jarring, but overall I found the protagonist's journey compelling.
Where is this kind of stuff in Heavy Rain? That's only the first act out of four, too.
...Did you seriously just somewhat spoil Act 1 of Grim Fandango?
Except the same complaints cannot be lodged.
You make a gross oversimplifcation in order to equate the experiences.
Puzzle solving/exploration is traditional gameplay as FUCK.
No, I'm not, read the text to the right.
velociraptor
Junior Member
My point exactly.
So how can anyone suggest David Cage games have no gameplay?
The player has a significant input throughout the entire experience.
fvng
Member
You should remove the spoiler image though
This isn't what the thread is about. OP is trying to equate LucasArts adventure gameplay to that of Quantic Dream games. It's not remotely the same experience.
QTEs are not intrinsically bad game design, but they are not the same kind of gameplay as the puzzle-solving you'd find in classic adventure titles.
The most that QD games require you to do outside of QTEs is finding a clue and then talking to a person to advance the story. Maybe, MAYBE once in a while you need to find a key or something. There is no inventory, no combining items, and not much in the way of critical problem solving.
I'm not saying that QD games don't have an element of gameplay situations designed to encourage deductive reasoning, but there's nothing on the level of the usual LucasArts stuff -
but what is traditional gameplay defined by? Interactivity? movement in space? There are so many different genres that require different approaches to a game: the old point and clicks were...point and clicks. You pointed and clicked. Same goes with RTS, Turn based, simulation, city builders, puzzle games. Is that bad gameplay? No, because you need a lot of brain activity to play them, and some people have fun with that...which is what gameplay is about. Cage's games are interactive novels, a totally different genre than these old ones in which puzzles were the focus. In Cage's the plot is paramount, and they would be slammed way less if the scripts weren't so bad
It's not, but even if it were, does it matter?
The companies in the videogame industry refer to their products as "entertainment software". And imo, the more variety in entertainment software, the better. No need to hate on things.
Fbh
Member
Lots of lucas arts game have puzzles
"Get X item to interact with this character so he gives you the key to open that door which will give you access to a new item you need to progress the story".
Now I honestly think Heavy Rain managed to give the feeling of playing because of the fact that the characters could die. During action heavy scenes you felt a sort of "pressure" because you knew that if you screwed up too much the character might actually die with no "checkpoint" and no "try again".
That alone was enough to make it really enjoyable to me.
But they didn't do that with beyond: two souls.
All the sense of pressure and urgency was gone when you knew that even if you screwed up everything would be fine.
Both games felt like an interactive movie. But at least in Heavy Rain it felt like my actions and input were relevant. In Beyond it just felt like I pressed stuff for the cutscene to continue
PS: Also Lucasarts game had fun dialog and great characters. David Cage feels like a teen was trying to write a "deep and emotional" story while failing at it
"Get X item to interact with this character so he gives you the key to open that door which will give you access to a new item you need to progress the story".
Now I honestly think Heavy Rain managed to give the feeling of playing because of the fact that the characters could die. During action heavy scenes you felt a sort of "pressure" because you knew that if you screwed up too much the character might actually die with no "checkpoint" and no "try again".
That alone was enough to make it really enjoyable to me.
But they didn't do that with beyond: two souls.
All the sense of pressure and urgency was gone when you knew that even if you screwed up everything would be fine.
Both games felt like an interactive movie. But at least in Heavy Rain it felt like my actions and input were relevant. In Beyond it just felt like I pressed stuff for the cutscene to continue
PS: Also Lucasarts game had fun dialog and great characters. David Cage feels like a teen was trying to write a "deep and emotional" story while failing at it
Robdraggoo
Member
everytime i read KOTOR I cant help but imagine a conan like barbarian. a barbarian named KOTOR
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Oh sweetie there's lots of reasons to attack David Cage games.