Smooth Operator
Member
Cage is the one to blame for that.
David Cage's games get attacked for "no gameplay" yet LucasArts games are worshipped
- Thread starter fvng
- Start date
Cage is the one to blame for that.
Hiding the unpause movie button every few minutes isn't a game to a lot of people. Doesn't make them narrow minded.
Fuz
Banned
Yes, those Indiana Jones games were really HILARIOUS.
vagabondarts
Member
Indigo Prophecy had me until about 3/4 of the way in when it became the Matrix. After the game ended I decided never to play another one of his games again because the resolution was all so ridiculous and hollow. It started out so promising too, I was really into it.
Reminded me of X-Files episodes where you hoped to get some resolution but just got dragged around in endless plot circles.
Reminded me of X-Files episodes where you hoped to get some resolution but just got dragged around in endless plot circles.
Kotor has a ton of gameplay. It maybe crpg style turnbased gameplay but it is still gameplay.
I'm saying they took our everything from adventure games. You are skirting around this "puzzle" business pretty handily, I wonder why?
Also, pixel hunting became irrelevant when, you know, adventure games started using hand-drawn art or pre-rendered background art instead of pixels, because the interactive parts became obvious. But you'd know that if you'd played any classic adventure games.
derExperte
Member
You obviously have trouble with the concept that people think that the gameplay of the old LA games was superior. Yes, you can do stuff in Cage's games. Doesn't mean people who love old point & click adventures can't complain about the simplistic interactivity in HR and Beyond.
Cage is a master when it comes to hamming it up beyond the point where I can still take a character serious. A good writer can use clichés responsibly, he can't.
Unfortunately they also took out everything that came after the pixel hunting. The part where you had to actually do something with the stuff you found. The puzzles. The gameplay I and others liked and is missing now.
fvng
Member
I already stated before some puzzles and game over screens would be welcomed in his next game. I will never argue in favor of removing puzzles, believe me, but I won't condemn a game for omitting them either
HellBlazer
Member
You guys claiming that the writing IS the difference are really doing a huge disservice to point-and-click adventure games. Of course, the writing in LucasArts games was infinitely better than Quantic Dream's, but that's besides the point. The gameplay is also fundamentally different.
And yes, puzzle-solving is gameplay. You can argue that watching a cutscene and pressing random buttons as they appear is also gameplay (and sure, you interact with the game to a certain extent), that requires almost no thought at all and, to most people, sequences like that are pretty uninteresting.
Now, let me give you a very concrete example. Let's say you get to a hotel and you need to make your way to a certain room to talk to someone there, but the clerk in the lobby won't let you pass.
In an old-school adventure game, you'd probably be able to try talking to the guy, with different dialog options to attempt to convince, cajole and/or threaten him in various ways. If that leads nowhere, you could perhaps try to use physical force, which your character may or may not be willing to do. If not, you can look around the environment for a way to succeed, maybe find a way to distract the guy somehow and go past him while he's not looking. Or ring the desk bell until he gets so annoyed he just lets you go so that you'll stop. Then you also of course have your inventory of items you're carrying. Maybe you have some sort of symbol of authority to just make him do as you please, or you might have... ah, yes, your wallet, I bet this guy would just take a bribe. In short, you have a multitude of options that you have to think of and try, and when you eventually succeed, you get a sense of accomplishment for the obstacle overcome, and you feel smart (if the puzzle is well-designed). Also, even if you couldn't solve that puzzle at that moment, many games from the classic era would offer different puzzles in multiple areas at the same time, so you always had something else to work on.
On the other hand, in Heavy Rain - and yes, literally in Heavy Rain, because this is a scene from that game - you get a prompt telling you to move an analog stick a quarter-turn, and when you do, your character automatically takes out his wallet to bribe the guy and you move on. No player agency whatsoever. Sure, you press a button, but there was no other choice but to do that. Is that in any way satisfying?
Now, if you feel the two approaches are similar in their quality of gameplay, interactivity and player agency, or even in their core philosophy, uh... I don't know what to tell you. Sure, not every scene in David Cage games is that simplistic but... then again, using your wallet would also be the most basic of puzzles in any LucasArts game.
And yes, puzzle-solving is gameplay. You can argue that watching a cutscene and pressing random buttons as they appear is also gameplay (and sure, you interact with the game to a certain extent), that requires almost no thought at all and, to most people, sequences like that are pretty uninteresting.
Now, let me give you a very concrete example. Let's say you get to a hotel and you need to make your way to a certain room to talk to someone there, but the clerk in the lobby won't let you pass.
In an old-school adventure game, you'd probably be able to try talking to the guy, with different dialog options to attempt to convince, cajole and/or threaten him in various ways. If that leads nowhere, you could perhaps try to use physical force, which your character may or may not be willing to do. If not, you can look around the environment for a way to succeed, maybe find a way to distract the guy somehow and go past him while he's not looking. Or ring the desk bell until he gets so annoyed he just lets you go so that you'll stop. Then you also of course have your inventory of items you're carrying. Maybe you have some sort of symbol of authority to just make him do as you please, or you might have... ah, yes, your wallet, I bet this guy would just take a bribe. In short, you have a multitude of options that you have to think of and try, and when you eventually succeed, you get a sense of accomplishment for the obstacle overcome, and you feel smart (if the puzzle is well-designed). Also, even if you couldn't solve that puzzle at that moment, many games from the classic era would offer different puzzles in multiple areas at the same time, so you always had something else to work on.
On the other hand, in Heavy Rain - and yes, literally in Heavy Rain, because this is a scene from that game - you get a prompt telling you to move an analog stick a quarter-turn, and when you do, your character automatically takes out his wallet to bribe the guy and you move on. No player agency whatsoever. Sure, you press a button, but there was no other choice but to do that. Is that in any way satisfying?
Now, if you feel the two approaches are similar in their quality of gameplay, interactivity and player agency, or even in their core philosophy, uh... I don't know what to tell you. Sure, not every scene in David Cage games is that simplistic but... then again, using your wallet would also be the most basic of puzzles in any LucasArts game.
Shmuely Bully
Member
Simple question: why?
Even if I agreed with you, your premise is hugely flawed. The difference between David Cage's cinematic story games and classic point-and-click adventure games - besides writing that doesn't suck huge donkey dick - is integrated puzzle design wherein you collect items and investigate your surroundings and figure out how to apply what you have in your inventory and what's going on in the screen to solve complex problems. That's the core of these old games. David Cage's games ignore anything like puzzle solving and exchanges it for simple guessing games with dialogue (i got the 'good' ending of Heavy Rain on my first try) and wonky as fuck wrestling with the dual shock controller during Quick Timer Events.
Now I don't know if that changed in Beyond 'cause I sure as fuck ain't gonna burn my money in a furnace yet AGAIN on an abominable David Cage game without hearing from someone that hated his past games sayin' something is different now, but your premise is hugely flawed. Puzzle solving IS gameplay. And it was always an integral part of the genre in those years, and depending on the type of gameplay you liked, that was pretty enjoyable gameplay to boot.
Fuz
Banned
No.
I honestly am kind of baffled when people feel they HAVE to be there, at least for something like Zero Escape. If the story's great I'm more than happy to grab the game just for that, $50 and $60 can be a bit much but $30 and $40 are still within the realm of a movie or book purchase, and even those higher points are more akin to buying TV seasons or series.
Granted, I won't turn down good gameplay if it's there, but I'm looking to be ENTERTAINED, and I don't need arbitrary shit there because 'but its a vidja game!' By the same token if you focus on that story and THAT isn't sufficiently entertaining... and I'm going with a broad view of entertainment, as in "I am getting something out of this and am not bored or irritated."
Shmuely Bully
Member
Pretty much how I feel about it. Beyond was damn entertaining and I didn't even think the writing was bad (although Cage clearly needs an editor because it went on for too long).
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
David Cage games don't deserve all the hate they get, they're not great but they're something unique and different and it's great that those games exist if you want to play them. It's wonderful that video games as a medium can be so diverse as to include interactive story experiences like Grim Fandango and Beyond 2 souls.
I think that the LucasArts games are mostly worshipped despite being similar in over all objectives as to david cage's titles because they're a product of their time, standards are different now and priorities have shifted especially within this genre. Instead of giving a challenging set of puzzles and spending time sitting there figuring something out you want to wow your audience and lead them by the hand on an adventure.
Games are each a product of their time, I promise you if grim fandango was released today it would have a lot simpler presentation and a "lack of gameplay" which is a total bullshit phrase to be honest. Because ultimately that's subjective.
I think that the LucasArts games are mostly worshipped despite being similar in over all objectives as to david cage's titles because they're a product of their time, standards are different now and priorities have shifted especially within this genre. Instead of giving a challenging set of puzzles and spending time sitting there figuring something out you want to wow your audience and lead them by the hand on an adventure.
Games are each a product of their time, I promise you if grim fandango was released today it would have a lot simpler presentation and a "lack of gameplay" which is a total bullshit phrase to be honest. Because ultimately that's subjective.
ShaiKhulud
Banned
OK, another point: Telltale games vs David Cage.
IMO Walking Dead is nothing better in writing department (because zombie-apocalypse is dull theme by default in original comics), waaay worse when in comes to graphics and sometimes even less interactive than Beyound.
Still there's so much praise around the TT projects (to be honest most of them after BTTF are a mere ugly-looking sunday TV-dramas with PC/Console controls) and so much hatred around that bald french guy and his at least qute beautiful looking games. I don't get it, seriosly.
IMO Walking Dead is nothing better in writing department (because zombie-apocalypse is dull theme by default in original comics), waaay worse when in comes to graphics and sometimes even less interactive than Beyound.
Still there's so much praise around the TT projects (to be honest most of them after BTTF are a mere ugly-looking sunday TV-dramas with PC/Console controls) and so much hatred around that bald french guy and his at least qute beautiful looking games. I don't get it, seriosly.
Cage's games get attacked because they suck as games, and the stories are stupid on top of that.
The concept may be 'dull', but I'd say the writing is markedly better all around to David Cage's games to date. Remember, how dull you think a concept is not actually an assessment of the quality of the writing therein - some of the dullest concepts on Earth are made brilliant by the astonishing writing therein. Walking Dead is not that, of course, and it's not even like a GREAT standard marker in the industry for writing, but it's much superior to every David Cage game I played in that perspective. The plot holes are kept to a minimum if they exist at all, the human drama is relatable and people act in ways you'd expect given the plot details, and there is an intensity to the proceedings due to the very well mapped out relationship between Lee and Clementine. Whereas for a title like Heavy Rain, there is a new plot hole every two seconds, characters perform either like bizarre automatons or like gorillas in a zoo acting at humanity for a banana. It's a comedy of errors, from start to end.
The gameplay is a wash, I'll give you that. But visually, I'd rather stare at Waking Dead's stylistic cel-shading approach - provided it is a rock solid framerate - then what Quantic Dream has achieved so far in their big PS3 titles. The tech just isn't there yet for the style in Heavy Rain and Beyond not to look a bit creepy from my perspective.
I don't think you'll find many people that share your opinion. While there's definitely room for improvement in Telltale's writing, it's still coherent and straight-forward. On the other hand, David Cage's decision to tell BTS out of order is one of the smaller problems you'll find in the writing.
AHA-Lambda
Member
So you would put The Walking Dead and Wolf Among Us on the same level as Beyond: Two Souls?
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Telltalle games? sure those are closer to Cage's games. Traditional point and click? not so much. Those games move entirely at your own pace and tend to have a lot of backtracking.
Puzzles on traditional lucasarts games are not solved on a single scene/area of the game
Puzzles on traditional lucasarts games are not solved on a single scene/area of the game
fvng
Member
Just about every game I own has a shit or forgettable storyline. Welcome to the medium. I have peers that don't even bother paying attention to story anymore since they're mostly disposable afterthoughts.
Anecdote time: I remember asking several of my friends what the storyline for Skyrim was about and received vague unsure explanations even though they all finished the game.
Demon's Souls and Vanquish are two of my favorite games and if you ask me right now what they're about I would have no concrete answer for you.
Beyond had a terrific storyline and kept me involved . More than I can say for most other games.
How many games can you honestly say have an honest to goodness great storyline? portal 2? Mass Effect? Bioshock? Silent Hill 2? It's slim pickins and no JRPG is eligible either
ShaiKhulud
Banned
OK, don't get me wrong. I'm no saying that DC games are better than TT's. Tastes differ and all that.
I'm trying to made a point, that linear cinematic sometimes rudimentary interactive approach is basicly equal in TT and QD projects.
But it's ok for TT games (as, ahem, gameplay), but somehow bad when press is talking about Cage. I just find it a bit cheesy, there something like a little hipocracy here.
I'm trying to made a point, that linear cinematic sometimes rudimentary interactive approach is basicly equal in TT and QD projects.
But it's ok for TT games (as, ahem, gameplay), but somehow bad when press is talking about Cage. I just find it a bit cheesy, there something like a little hipocracy here.
Your point only works if people actually find their writing equivalent. Most people don't. As someone who has read a ton of books, seen a lot of movies, and watched a lot of TV shows, I can say without a doubt that Telltale's writing is significantly better than Quantic Dream's.
Pyramid head
Banned
The woman in the next room is waiting for you to display your supernatural power.
Aiden goes bezerk and terrifies the woman. (Turn to page 56)
Aiden does nothing. (Turn to page 56)
It wouldn't even make a good choose your own adventure book.
fvng
Member
"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important. - John Carmack
David Cage might miss the ball but at least he's swinging. Most developers don't even bother attempting a decent storyline. Cage is making earnest attempts even though he stumbles at times
David Cage might miss the ball but at least he's swinging. Most developers don't even bother attempting a decent storyline. Cage is making earnest attempts even though he stumbles at times
When the writing in the game is better than the TV show I'm confident in saying the games are well written.
This is pretty much what I'd have said too.
I've played every Quantic Dream game starting from Omicron when they came out and I love what Cage wants to do. That said, he leans toward traditional movie and tv-type storytelling and that's when weaknesses in writing get magnified. I love some parts of Beyond like the dinner scene but there's also the terrible cliches and the straight-to-video parts with the Hobos With Heart of Gold and so on. Playng the game is like directing a scene in a tv series and I can tell when an episode sucks.
Play Beyond and The Wolf Among Us back to back and you can't miss it.
lol
OP just got blown the fuck out.
ShaiKhulud
Banned
I can agree with you, but let's assume that TT isn't making anything new either. They've made best games out of establihed media franchises. ^_^
Still Heavy Rain and Fahrenheit was ok for me. In terms of production values (music, sound, overall picture) too.
But yet again, tastes differ.
Yeah, that probably sounds a lot more condescending than I intended, but point stands the success of the story in a game like this is dependent on how enveloped in game and nerd culture someone is. I thought IP an interesting failure, was hopeful for Heavy Rain and terribly, terribly disappointed, and think his last is somehow his worst. If he'd bring an actual writer on, I think (a lot of) people would stop bemoaning the "lack of gameplay." LucasArts adventures coasted by due to the quality of their writing and, even then, puzzles.
fvng
Member
lol
Oh I should have clarified, most MODERN JRPGs. You know... Dreck like the Tales series or NIS games. I have a Nier avatar so I acknowledge exceptions. A truly exceptional JRPG story is far and few in between. But this is a problem that plagues all video games not just JRPGs
Tidus_Great
Banned
because David Cage is popular and has controversial opinions about gaming the internet will hate him. Doesn't matter though his games sell millions so for those of us who like them we will continue to get his work 
Characterization and themes of a game are arguably just as important as storylines. MGS as a series has had really solid themes, Red Dead Redemption has a couple of strong themes and great characterization. Tons of games have great narrative packages with problems in certain spots.
David Cage games are weak all around on a narrative level.
because David Cage is popular and has controversial opinions about gaming the internet will hate him. Doesn't matter though his games sell millions so for those of us who like them we will continue to get his work
Good thing people are judging his work and not his personality alone.
fvng
Member
I can't really co- sign that DC's games are weak on every bullet point, he has his faults but there are redeemable aspects to his games that make them enjoyable. For me at least
And I do think that hating DC, the person, has an impact on how people see his games. There has to be some bias working against his favor. Just dropping his name elicits anger from a lot of people
Laura Bow avatar, highly appropriate
jim-jam bongs
Member
because David Cage is popular and has controversial opinions about gaming the internet will hate him. Doesn't matter though his games sell millions so for those of us who like them we will continue to get his work
I won't speak for the entire internet, but personally I don't hate David Cage. That would imply a depth of feeling I'm simply not capable of summoning for the guy. If someone strapped me to a chair, put toothpicks in my eyelids and forced me to play one of his games I'd probably hate that person though.
But yet many of ideas in Cage's games are lifted out of fiction directly or indirectly influenced by anime or manga.
Maidenpool?
Member
Monkey Island and other classic LucasArts games - clever, witty, fun dialogue with enjoyable puzzles and stories.
David Cage games - pretentious, overwritten, QTE-filled humourless slogs.
Completely different.
David Cage games - pretentious, overwritten, QTE-filled humourless slogs.
Completely different.
fvng
Member
I am still not even sure why people hate David Cage, the person.
He's doesn't have the inflammatory or antagonistic qualities of someone like Cliffy B, Fish or Jaffe. I've always seen Cage present himself as a mild mannered person that cares about video games and experimenting with the medium....but as far as I can tell he has said nothing to become such a lightning rod for hatred.
Hating his works? Fine to each his own, but hating the person? Why? Because he's outspoken and vocal about his personal vision for gaming?
lol what
He's doesn't have the inflammatory or antagonistic qualities of someone like Cliffy B, Fish or Jaffe. I've always seen Cage present himself as a mild mannered person that cares about video games and experimenting with the medium....but as far as I can tell he has said nothing to become such a lightning rod for hatred.
Hating his works? Fine to each his own, but hating the person? Why? Because he's outspoken and vocal about his personal vision for gaming?
lol what
LucasArts games were witty and charming, with great gameplay and puzzles to boot.
Cage's games are much more melodramatic and don't involve much puzzling. They're much more story-driven as interactive movies. That's not a direct criticism, though.
I don't think there should be a comparison as it's apples and kumquats.
Cage's games are much more melodramatic and don't involve much puzzling. They're much more story-driven as interactive movies. That's not a direct criticism, though.
I don't think there should be a comparison as it's apples and kumquats.