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Giant Bomb #8 | It's a Hit!

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EmCeeGramr said:
That is a serious counterpoint. Tone policing happens all the time, and it has a suffocating, censoring effect on discussions about marginalization.

It literally just happened in the other thread, that got so terrible that it had to be locked; it started out with a plea from Jeff and others to stop ganging up on and harassing a woman over her comments, and the thread (like many others regarding similar topics) became about dragging that woman through the mud over one particular tweet out of many as "proof" that "both sides" are bad (when the other side is telling her to kill herself), or digging up old venting essays on personal blogs and focusing on the rhetoric rather than the actual message. It was complete shift of focus from "what a marginalized person puts up with," to "but has said marginalized person ever gotten angry or frustrated so we can disregard them as hysterical/uppity/radical" as if that was the REAL scandal to be discussed.

It happens all the time. The discussion about the terrible things that marginalized people go through always ends up shifting from discussing the marginalization itself, to putting the marginalized person on trial for every offense you can dig up.
Click to expand...

Wow. Your perspective and outlook on this whole issue has been FANTASTIC. Really glad that you've been able to guide this discussion somewhat into a positive direction.
 
peterb0y said:
Wow. Your perspective and outlook on this whole issue has been FANTASTIC. Really glad that you've been able to guide this discussion somewhat into a positive direction.
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Seconding this. I really respect what you've been doing here, EmCee.
 
EmCeeGramr said:
It happens all the time. The discussion about the terrible things that marginalized people go through always ends up shifting from discussing the marginalization itself, to putting the marginalized person on trial for every offense you can dig up.
Click to expand...

Just wanted to say thanks for this. Been reading the thread all this time.
 
BTA said:
I've been trying to think of how to convey this for the past few hours and I stop short of posting every time because I felt like I couldn't word it in a way that wouldn't be quickly dismissed, but if someone else said it, I might as well add to it. The fact of the matter is that you aren't entitled to any specific person educating you on an issue when you confront them about it, especially when there are surely many other people confronting them in the same way. The expectation that someone should have to calmly explain to you how you're being to shitty them while you're doing so is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%. I'd also add that the worst time to try to critically engage with someone on tough subjects is when they're in the middle of some obnoxious Twitter spamfest where people are literally calling for their death, or refusing to acknowledge their humanity. I mean, my tweets might get one or two responses, some retweets and a couple of favs. I could not imagine what a crapfest it would be to manage just being in the middle of an intense personal firestorm, let alone trying to seriously debate within one, and I am very comfortable with debate.

As an aside I'd say please don't feel like it's not worth posting, even if some will immediately dismiss it. There are plenty of readers on this board who just don't want to engage in threads like this for similar reasons, but who would appreciate seeing comments that might be supportive or explanatory.
 
ST2K said:
He was screwing around with the GB audience before that message too. Anything tangentially related to the GB hire was food for them to discuss, not just "I'm totally not going to Giant Bomb" jokes.

Think about it. If he really wanted to know if the job was still open, why would he post on the Giant Bomb forums to check? He's friends with Jeff, he probably has everyone's email that works for them, he could shoot any one of them a DM over Twitter. There were many other ways to do it if he was sincere in his inquiry.
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Yeah, if I remember correctly GI did a special on Dan. Well, kind of. He did his last Replay and they kind of talked about how its his last show. Played whatever games were on there, and at the end Tim Turi and some other peeps sang a song about Dan. Soon after that, I think I read it on here (here as in one of the GB threads) that he asked if the position was still open. There was a link too. So I clicked it, and immediately knew he was going to Giant Bomb.

Why would you quit a good cushy job and THEN post on their forum just to see if the job is open? This is Dan. This is who he is.The man loves to troll no matter what...but I wonder now that he's at Giant Bomb if it's going to tone down a bit...because he can be a massive, massive dick sometimes. He was surprisingly "chill" on the bombcast.
 
EmCeeGramr said:
That is a serious counterpoint. Tone policing happens all the time, and it has a suffocating, censoring effect on discussions about marginalization.

It literally just happened in the other thread, that got so terrible that it had to be locked; it started out with a plea from Jeff and others to stop ganging up on and harassing a woman over her comments, and the thread (like many others regarding similar topics) became about dragging that woman through the mud over one particular tweet out as "proof" that "both sides" are bad (when the other side is telling her to kill herself), or digging up old venting essays on personal blogs and focusing on the rhetoric rather than the actual message. It was complete shift of focus from "what a marginalized person puts up with," to "but has said marginalized person ever gotten angry or frustrated so we can disregard them as hysterical/uppity/radical" as if that was the REAL scandal to be discussed.

It happens all the time. The discussion about the terrible things that marginalized people go through always ends up shifting from discussing the marginalization itself, to putting the marginalized person on trial for every offense you can dig up.
Click to expand...

The thing is that it should not be both sides, or one trying to justify what one individual. Shift of focus is seems to be more a visceral reaction to another person way of conveying the message. People keep arguing about that at both sides with the same snarky confrontational rhetoric that supposedly gets to the point. People should not tolerate death threats as should not try to justify a figure that truly wants to be a public one saying stuff like "I hate men. Why should I justify me when men don't justify their hate of women?"

She seems to had actually detailed her post about misandry so it seems to be a form of acknowledgment of saying something that affects her discourse.
 
Poor Patrick :(

He just wrote that article on tumblr a few months ago as well when he was criticized that most of the guests on the E3 night show were white males. His tumblr article.

I also want to write something on this issue at large later but the choices do seem really boring to me. The staff at Giant Bomb are getting older and so is their audience. They really needed someone new that's fresh and different to change things up in my opinion. Not the same old rolodex industry veterans. With youtubers gaining more and more popularity it's going to be tough for them to grow and maintain their audience as time goes by.

Didn't Jeff even make some comments that he didn't want GB to grow "stale" and that he wanted to changes things during a jar episode?
 
Situations like this really have started to bother me lately. The people fighting
for the things I believe in approach it in such a way that I don't want to be associated with them. Meanwhile, the group that opposes them hurl the most vile disturbing insults imaginable to the point where I'm not sure that they even comprehend the people on the other end are real human beings. I'm equally disturbed that there seems to be a huge number of people out there supporting what Leigh Alexander says. How can so many people overlook the terrible things that she has tweeted? Not only is she so arrogant as to think that she has made all those that came before her irrelevant, she continues to hurl insults at people who are trying to help defend her.
I'm just really disgusted by the ignorance on both sides of the argument and while I don't want to remain neutral it really makes me start to question where I even fit in. Are people really this terrible by and large or does twitter just turn rational, goodhearted, decent people into monsters? I'm honestly curious.
Sorry for the mini-rant, I just needed to vent somewhere.
 
TheSadRanger said:
I also want to write something on this issue at large later but the choices do seem really boring to me. The staff at Giant Bomb are getting older and so is their audience. They really needed someone new that's fresh and different to change things up in my opinion. Not the same old rolodex industry veterans. With youtubers gaining more and more popularity it's going to be tough for them to grow and maintain their audience as time goes by.
Click to expand...

Is this what you really want?

57VZblC.jpg
 
May I also point out the fact that for all the people getting mad about the 'most qualified' stuff in the locked thread...

Dan Ryckert is one qualified motherfucker.
 
I really do think that sometimes people expect too much of a website that had a video of a lhama guy roaming the streets of SF, an article about the evolution of HHH video game hair, and a panel for made-up wikipedia info at their front page at one point.
 
chogidogs said:
I really do think that sometimes people expect too much of a website that had a video of a lhama guy roaming the streets of SF, an article about the evolution of HHH video game hair, and a panel for made-up wikipedia info at their front page at one point.
Click to expand...

That sounds like the most socially relevant stories to me. IDK what sites you go to but HHH's hair tech is more important than almost anything else happening in the world.
 
TheSadRanger said:
I also want to write something on this issue at large later but the choices do seem really boring to me. The staff at Giant Bomb are getting older and so is their audience. They really needed someone new that's fresh and different to change things up in my opinion. Not the same old rolodex industry veterans. With youtubers gaining more and more popularity it's going to be tough for them to grow and maintain their audience as time goes by.
Click to expand...

BPwysd7.jpg
 
TheSadRanger said:
Poor Patrick :(

He just wrote that article on tumblr a few months ago as well when he was criticized that most of the guests on the E3 night show were white males. His tumblr article.

I also want to write something on this issue at large later but the choices do seem really boring to me. The staff at Giant Bomb are getting older and so is their audience. They really needed someone new that's fresh and different to change things up in my opinion. Not the same old rolodex industry veterans. With youtubers gaining more and more popularity it's going to be tough for them to grow and maintain their audience as time goes by.

Didn't Jeff even make some comments that he didn't want GB to grow "stale" and that he wanted to changes things during a jar episode?
Click to expand...

Wow, excellent piece by Patrick. I find myself enjoying his writing more and more every month. :)

Back on topic: loved the podcast,and am really excited to see how the site evolves. I had grown a little tired of the podcast, and the site was feeling a bit stale. Hoping that they provide a new spark of creativity and energy.
 
EmCeeGramr said:
That is a serious counterpoint. Tone policing happens all the time, and it has a suffocating, censoring effect on discussions about marginalization.

It literally just happened in the other thread, that got so terrible that it had to be locked; it started out with a plea from Jeff and others to stop ganging up on and harassing a woman over her comments, and the thread (like many others regarding similar topics) became about dragging that woman through the mud over one particular tweet out of many as "proof" that "both sides" are bad (when the other side is telling her to kill herself), or digging up old venting essays on personal blogs and focusing on the rhetoric rather than the actual message. It was complete shift of focus from "what a marginalized person puts up with," to "but has said marginalized person ever gotten angry or frustrated so we can disregard them as hysterical/uppity/radical" as if that was the REAL scandal to be discussed.

It happens all the time. The discussion about the terrible things that marginalized people go through always ends up shifting from discussing the marginalization itself, to putting the marginalized person on trial for every offense you can dig up.
Click to expand...

Hey duder, I've been off reading other feminist stuff (and didn't know my post spawned a whole separate conversation between users) and felt the need to reply. It sounds like it's all about me, but I guess here it is.

When I first sent her a message about that "go fuck yourself" remark, I wasn't on GAF or the Giant Bomb forums, I wasn't engaged with the kind of abuse she received, I didn't read her other replies and whatever else. I saw things from a very isolated point-of-view. When I see someone say "go fuck yourself" over a sensitive subject, pointing out that the reaction is destructive seems to be a natural response. There are all sorts of reasons she has to be angry, and she has reason to express her anger. But I, as both someone not in the conversation and someone with more privilege, don't automatically understand her history. And maybe I should know these things before saying them! But in a completely isolated incident, I still think I'm right; that shit is disastrous. I've made the same critique before regarding people talking about religion, politics, etc., and it's mostly gone over well. I don't expect everyone to have the patience of MLK or Gandhi or Christ, but I also hope that they want to make a better world instead of a worse one.

Here's what I wrote to her: "Important to note that saying "go fuck yourself" revolves the conversation around the insult, not the actual disagreement."

And that's actually what ended up happening. We all, including myself, are suddenly affected by her words. Some of us, like me from some time ago, can imagine ourselves in an internet butthole's shoes. Others understand her rage and don't pretend to excuse it. But the conversation is no longer about (or is marginally about) Giant Bomb's hiring process. Even stuff like her nasty misandrist post are dredged up because they seem important to understanding her. But I never defended abusers and never even wanted the conversation to be about her personally. I would have absolutely loved it if she had used her anger to better express her thoughts about the hiring process in gaming (about Giant Bomb but preferably about the industry in general) than make personal remarks that turn the conversation inward. An angry protest might even endear her to people who believe the same and need the right words! That's not to discredit her anger but I knew from the get-go that those insults would create problems.

Giant Bomb is also a very tight-knight community, with it being a wonderful site that is also relatively small, so if we want to improve it it's better to let our anger be used to build rather than destroy. It's better to write angry blog posts about our feelings and possible disappointments in the site rather than pull a....nother person and quickly delete tweets basically saying "Giant Bomb suxxxxxxxxxfucku" all the time. And it's better to focus on the topic-at-hand, rather than let errant tweets change the conversation.

She's an adult. She can do whatever she wants. She supports causes that I believe in. She also doesn't seem likable in the least bit, and I can't really excuse that. People can block her like she blocked them and we can get back to the discussion that matters.
 
hiphoptherobot said:
Situations like this really have started to bother me lately. The people fighting
for the things I believe in approach it in such a way that I don't want to be associated with them. Meanwhile, the group that opposes them hurl the most vile disturbing insults imaginable to the point where I'm not sure that they even comprehend the people on the other end are real human beings. I'm equally disturbed that there seems to be a huge number of people out there supporting what Leigh Alexander says. How can so many people overlook the terrible things that she has tweeted? Not only is she so arrogant as to think that she has made all those that came before her irrelevant, she continues to hurl insults at people who are trying to help defend her.
I'm just really disgusted by the ignorance on both sides of the argument and while I don't want to remain neutral it really makes me start to question where I even fit in. Are people really this terrible by and large or does twitter just turn rational, goodhearted, decent people into monsters? I'm honestly curious.
Sorry for the mini-rant, I just needed to vent somewhere.
Click to expand...

I feel the same way, although less passionately. When debates get ugly you have to divorce the ideas and topics at hand from the people expressing them. No one is rational, goodhearted, and decent all the time. There are situations and experiences that could cause any of us to say the same things, as we are all the sum of our past experiences.

At least, telling myself that helps me sleep.
 
TheSadRanger said:
Poor Patrick :(

He just wrote that article on tumblr a few months ago as well when he was criticized that most of the guests on the E3 night show were white males. His tumblr article.

I also want to write something on this issue at large later but the choices do seem really boring to me. The staff at Giant Bomb are getting older and so is their audience. They really needed someone new that's fresh and different to change things up in my opinion. Not the same old rolodex industry veterans. With youtubers gaining more and more popularity it's going to be tough for them to grow and maintain their audience as time goes by.

Didn't Jeff even make some comments that he didn't want GB to grow "stale" and that he wanted to changes things during a jar episode?
Click to expand...

I'm fairly certain that tweet is in reference to the anniversary of his fathers death and anniversary of losing Ryan.
 
TadThuggish said:
Hey duder, I've been off reading other feminist stuff (and didn't know my post spawned a whole separate conversation between users) and felt the need to reply. It sounds like it's all about me, but I guess here it is.

When I first sent her a message about that "go fuck yourself" remark, I wasn't on GAF or the Giant Bomb forums, I wasn't engaged with the kind of abuse she received, I didn't read her other replies and whatever else. I saw things from a very isolated point-of-view. When I see someone say "go fuck yourself" over a sensitive subject, pointing out that the reaction is destructive seems to be a natural response. There are all sorts of reasons she has to be angry, and she has reason to express her anger. But I, as both someone not in the conversation and someone with more privilege, don't automatically understand her history. And maybe I should know these things before saying them! But in a completely isolated incident, I still think I'm right; that shit is disastrous. I've made the same critique before regarding people talking about religion, politics, etc., and it's mostly gone over well. I don't expect everyone to have the patience of MLK or Gandhi or Christ, but I also hope that they want to make a better world instead of a worse one.

Here's what I wrote to her: "Important to note that saying "go fuck yourself" revolves the conversation around the insult, not the actual disagreement."

And that's actually what ended up happening. We all, including myself, are suddenly affected by her words. Some of us, like me from some time ago, can imagine ourselves in an internet butthole's shoes. Others understand her rage and don't pretend to excuse it. But the conversation is no longer about (or is marginally about) Giant Bomb's hiring process. Even stuff like her nasty misandrist post are dredged up because they seem important to understanding her. But I never defended abusers and never even wanted the conversation to be about her personally. I would have absolutely loved it if she had used her anger to better express her thoughts about the hiring process in gaming (about Giant Bomb but preferably about the industry in general) than make personal remarks that turn the conversation inward. An angry protest might even endear her to people who believe the same and need the right words! That's not to discredit her anger but I knew from the get-go that those insults would create problems.

Giant Bomb is also a very tight-knight community, with it being a wonderful site that is also relatively small, so if we want to improve it it's better to let our anger be used to build rather than destroy. It's better to write angry blog posts about our feelings and possible disappointments in the site rather than pull a....nother person and quickly delete tweets basically saying "Giant Bomb suxxxxxxxxxfucku" all the time. And it's better to focus on the topic-at-hand, rather than let errant tweets change the conversation.

She's an adult. She can do whatever she wants. She supports causes that I believe in. She also doesn't seem likable in the least bit, and I can't really excuse that. People can block her like she blocked them and we can get back to the discussion that matters.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
TadThuggish said:
Hey duder, I've been off reading other feminist stuff (and didn't know my post spawned a whole separate conversation between users) and felt the need to reply. It sounds like it's all about me, but I guess here it is.

When I first sent her a message about that "go fuck yourself" remark, I wasn't on GAF or the Giant Bomb forums, I wasn't engaged with the kind of abuse she received, I didn't read her other replies and whatever else. I saw things from a very isolated point-of-view. When I see someone say "go fuck yourself" over a sensitive subject, pointing out that the reaction is destructive seems to be a natural response. There are all sorts of reasons she has to be angry, and she has reason to express her anger. But I, as both someone not in the conversation and someone with more privilege, don't automatically understand her history. And maybe I should know these things before saying them! But in a completely isolated incident, I still think I'm right; that shit is disastrous. I've made the same critique before regarding people talking about religion, politics, etc., and it's mostly gone over well. I don't expect everyone to have the patience of MLK or Gandhi or Christ, but I also hope that they want to make a better world instead of a worse one.

Here's what I wrote to her: "Important to note that saying "go fuck yourself" revolves the conversation around the insult, not the actual disagreement."

And that's actually what ended up happening. We all, including myself, are suddenly affected by her words. Some of us, like me from some time ago, can imagine ourselves in an internet butthole's shoes. Others understand her rage and don't pretend to excuse it. But the conversation is no longer about (or is marginally about) Giant Bomb's hiring process. Even stuff like her nasty misandrist post are dredged up because they seem important to understanding her. But I never defended abusers and never even wanted the conversation to be about her personally. I would have absolutely loved it if she had used her anger to better express her thoughts about the hiring process in gaming (about Giant Bomb but preferably about the industry in general) than make personal remarks that turn the conversation inward. An angry protest might even endear her to people who believe the same and need the right words! That's not to discredit her anger but I knew from the get-go that those insults would create problems.

Giant Bomb is also a very tight-knight community, with it being a wonderful site that is also relatively small, so if we want to improve it it's better to let our anger be used to build rather than destroy. It's better to write angry blog posts about our feelings and possible disappointments in the site rather than pull a....nother person and quickly delete tweets basically saying "Giant Bomb suxxxxxxxxxfucku" all the time. And it's better to focus on the topic-at-hand, rather than let errant tweets change the conversation.

She's an adult. She can do whatever she wants. She supports causes that I believe in. She also doesn't seem likable in the least bit, and I can't really excuse that. People can block her like she blocked them and we can get back to the discussion that matters.
Click to expand...

AAA post!
 
Neither of the new guys really did it for me on this podcast. For an introductory bit neither of them talked much and when they did it was very... polite. Or it was about wrestling. I suppose Dan will become a regular on the podcast, but I hope it doesn't come at the cost of Drew. If I could have things my way Danny would be a regular, but I pray that at least they don't take Drew away from me.

I suppose it will just take time for the new guys to gel. If they're friends of Jeff they must be cool, this just wasn't a very exciting first impression. GB East more and more seems like the place to be.
 
mattp said:
so, is rorie gonna get a cake or a medal or something after today?
Click to expand...
They're giving him his own personal soda machine, that he can set the temperature on himself.
 
Wow, just read through Samantha's tweets. It seems like she's in a really bad place right now. The specifics of the larger issue aside, that is really sad on a personal level. It must be horrific to have constant harassment through all channels on the internet :(
 
TheXbox said:
Neither of the new guys really did it for me on this podcast. For an introductory bit neither of them talked much and when they did it was very... polite. Or it was about wrestling. I suppose Dan will become a regular on the podcast, but I hope it doesn't come at the cost of Drew. If I could have things my way Danny would be a regular, but I pray that at least they don't take Drew away from me.

I suppose it will just take time for the new guys to gel. If they're friends of Jeff they must be cool, this just wasn't a very exciting first impression. GB East more and more seems like the place to be.
Click to expand...

you just described Drew on every bombcast
 
Alo81 said:
I'm fairly certain that tweet is in reference to the anniversary of his fathers death and anniversary of losing Ryan.
Click to expand...

Ah I knew Ryan's death was this week but I forget about Pat's dad. Also what I mean by saying that they need someone with a fresh perspective is not that they need pewdepie or some edgie dude. Just someone unknown who's new and refreshing.

But hey opinions are opinions and they can do what they want. It will either work out or it won't.
 
TheSadRanger said:
Ah I knew Ryan's death was this week but I forget about Pat's dad. Also what I mean by saying that they need someone with a fresh perspective is not that they need pewdepie or some edgie dude. Just someone unknown who's new and refreshing.

But hey opinions are opinions and they can do what they want. It will either work out or it won't.
Click to expand...

I'd say that Dan and Jason provide new perspectives and will be refreshing, for Giant Bomb at least. The reaction to Jason liking the a Legend of Korra on the bombcast was amusing.
 
Rhaknar said:
you just described Drew on every bombcast
Click to expand...
Yes but I'm a hypocrite and I like Drew for exactly that reason. He's a foil to all the debauchery that goes on. I prefer normalcy to be the exception and not the... norm. One regular dude is enough, yeah?
 
TheSadRanger said:
Ah I knew Ryan's death was this week but I forget about Pat's dad. Also what I mean by saying that they need someone with a fresh perspective is not that they need pewdepie or some edgie dude. Just someone unknown who's new and refreshing.

But hey opinions are opinions and they can do what they want. It will either work out or it won't.
Click to expand...

On the other hand I think they will value familiarity after the core team has been reduced down to just jeff and brad.
 
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