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[Retro_]

wooow whatever dude

I just said that cosplay to me is a harmless form of entertainment.

but whatever makes you sleep better at night.

and what he's saying is that cosplaying as fantasy characters is not the same thing as "cosplaying" as a caricature of a group of people.

So it doesn't make sense to treat them as the same thing under the label of "cosplay"

I mean the point of cosplay is the costume anyways. You don't have to change your skin color to be that character. Black people have been dressing up as batman and super man and woder woman for years without painting their skin. White people can probably pull off movie nick fury and static shock without resorting to black face. I think most people will get what they're going for

 

[Irminsul]

Because race is, dispite some people in this thread thinking otherwise, a touchy subject. Though some may have good intentions race as a costume has been part of the systematic oppression of minorities since the inception of racism. As a result people of the other race get offended when you do it.

Yes, I get that, but that would it make pretty much dependent on history and culture. The issue is that the culture / history of the person colouring their skin and the one taking offence can be wildly different. And just because the first person knows about the history and culture of the second doesn't mean he or she adheres to it.

Yes, the person taking offence is absolutely in the right to do so, but in my opinion a person isn't automatically in the right just because he/she is offended. On the other hand, "culture" can't and shouldn't be an excuse for blatant racism. So what to do? Maybe something about this:

Though you may have good intentions the truth is no one cares what your intentions were.

And maybe that should change, although I honestly don't see a good way to handle it. Because as you said, even with good intentions you can cause offence. Still, there's a good reason why there's a difference between someone taking offence and something being offensive.

So what's the solution? I honestly don't know. I personally think colouring your skin shouldn't be a problem (at least if you're not exaggerating), but I can see why it still is.

I don't agree with your last point though:

If you dressed as a nazi as a joke it's still offensive, no matter what you were going for.

No, if you're in a play or a film, it's obviously not offensive, and everyone knows that.

 

[Slayven]

and what he's saying is that cosplaying as fantasy characters is not the same thing as "cosplaying" as a caricature of a group of people.

So it doesn't make sense to treat them as the same thing under the label of "cosplay"

I mean the point of cosplay is the costume anyways. You don't have to change your skin color to be that character. Black people have been dressing up as batman and super man and woder woman for years without painting their skin. White people can probably pull off movie nick fury and static shock without resorting to black face. I think most people will get what they're going for

But Retro I can't tell who these people suppose to be

 

[botty]

So... you wouldn't be grossed out if you were white, or Dominican?

Yes, but I can only speak for myself. Nice to have one less problem, I guess.

 

[kamorra]

I thought Africans were also subject to excessive racism too. Sort of like how Mexicans are viewed in this country as taking all of the jobs. I could be wrong but I remember reading something about this.

No, there aren't too many blacks in many European countries to begin with.
People over here just hate everyone. Turks, Arabs, everyone from eastern Europe. Italians are still portrayed as Mafioso who steal all blonde women. Oh, and Roma. No one likes them.

edit
I'm not trying to say that there is no racism against blacks. There is, it just not bigger or more excessive.

 

[Winterfang]

But Retro I can't tell who these people suppose to be

I think he meant the opposite, white people cosplaying black roles.

 

[Htown]

wooow whatever dude

I just said that cosplay to me is a harmless form of entertainment.

but whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Alright, Beysus. Since you want to be difficult, let me spell it out for you.

1. Does the original character have a different skin color than the cosplayer?
2. Do actual, real-life human beings have that skin color?

If the answer to both questions is yes, DON'T PAINT YOUR SKIN.

This is not rocket science.

 

[……forgetit]

Yes, I get that, but that would it make pretty much dependent on history and culture. The issue is that the culture / history of the person colouring their skin and the one taking offence can be wildly different. And just because the first person knows about the history and culture of the second doesn't mean he or she adheres to it.

Yes, the person taking offence is absolutely in the right to do so, but in my opinion a person isn't automatically in the right just because he/she is offended. On the other hand, "culture" can't and shouldn't be an excuse for blatant racism. So what to do? Maybe something about this:


And maybe that should change, although I honestly don't see a good way to handle it. Because as you said, even with good intentions you can cause offence. Still, there's a good reason why there's a difference between someone taking offence and something being offensive.

So what's the solution? I honestly don't know. I personally think colouring your skin shouldn't be a problem (at least if you're not exaggerating), but I can see why it still is.

I don't agree with your last point though:

No, if you're in a play or a film, it's obviously not offensive, and everyone knows that.

I should specify the last point, if you're a nazi in a film or a play, then of course it's not offensive, but if you go around wearing this;

no mater the context people will get offended. Also the rest of your point boils down to it shouldn't matter whether someone is offended or not, and if in your mind you don't care who you offend, by all means go for it. But as long as society exists there will be things that we consider taboo. It's not like it's illegal or ever will be, just don't be surprised when people get pissed at you and call you a dick.

 

[The Boat]

No offense but this is a horrible argument.

Example

“The fact that some people call blacks 'stupid niggers' or Hispanics 'stupid spics/wetbacks' while others don't doesn't really help reach any conclusion on if those words are racist.”

You don't need an unanimous decision to realize that something is wrong.

That and I always find it funny that by large minorities don't feel the need to paint their face white to imitate white artists/actors/characters and you pretty much always know who they're cosplaying/imitating. But for some strange reason there's an actual argument that many white people just have to paint their faces black lest you be confused on who they're imitating. No that means you're just doing a very shitty job at imitating said artist/character/actor(ess). If being black is the one shining definitive characteristic of said character then firstly, it's an absolute shit character, and secondly that character just isn't for you.

On the subject of imitation, someone link cosplaying while black and I recognize every single character these girls and guys are cosplaying as and they didn't need to paint their faces yellow and tape their eyes back to achieve it.

So on the point of people 'needing' to paint their faces to be close to an artist as possible.

They don't. Your musical performance isn't going to be any better or worse because you painted your face black. They're musical artists, you imitate their onstage presence and you sing their song and anyone will know who that artist is. If people don't know what artist you are when you're on stage and you feel you need to paint your face black; then you're doing an absolute shit job and should quit.

Perhaps it isn't the best argument, but the example you gave me wasn't either.

You're exaggerating and distorting things, I'm not saying you need to paint your face and I'm not saying it's the one shining characteristic that defines someone, in fact, that's precisely the point I'm making, it's just one characteristic among many others.

If a good make-up artist can make a white person look black (not that I've ever seen this happen, it always looks terrible), a black person look white, or whatever, I don't understand why that is racist, the same way a man can dress up as a woman and that's not seen as sexist, despite the fact that the world has a long history of sexism.

You're trying to physically look like someone, you imitate their physical characteristics, that's all there is to it. You can dress up and look like someone without painting your face, absolutely, it can be recognizable no doubt, hell it might even look cooler as if it's an alternate version of that character. Is it as accurate? No.
I just don't see any reason to classify that as racist, other than association with US' history with blackface.

Again, I'm just trying to discuss this matter logically to understand it, and I don't mean to offend no one, but I know it will lead nowhere.

 

[Retro_]

I think he meant the opposite, white people complying black roles.

I meant that it goes both ways. Basically skin color should not be treated as part of a fucking costume. Storm's skin color isn't anymore apart of her costume than Wolverine's

Body paint is fine if you want to be a monster or a mutant or something, but it's 100% not cool if you're just trying to dress up as another human being.

 

[Raven Prime]

Guys, blackface in the Netherlands isn't racist because all the white people agree it isn't and there are hardly any black people to complain.

Am I doing this right, Netherlands GAF?

Spoiler

On the real: racism is every bit as real and bad in northern Europe as it is here in the USA. Treatment of Arabs throughout most of Europe has been excessively reactionary and negative this past decade.

That's exactly what a lot of the Dutch people think and believe. Of course Black Pete is undisputedly a racist caricature. The last couple of years there has been a strong "Black Pete is Racism" movement, but the majority of the Dutch are still in denial.
However the awareness that Black Pete is a racist caricature has been around since the 1930's.
The signs are on the wall and Black Pete as part of the Saint Nicholas tradition is about to change, but it will probably take a few more years to filter out all the racist elements.

Now let me state this clearly for those that don't understand the difference. This does not mean the majority of the Dutch are racist, although racism clearly is a big problem in the Netherlands. But it perhaps isn't as overt as in some other regions of the world, however it still is very real and palpable for those that read between the lines.
However close analysis of the visual features of the Black Pete figure just don't leave room for interpretation, this clearly is a caricature of a dark skinned person of African heritage.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I think he meant the opposite, white people complying black roles.

This portion below isn't necessarily directed to you, but rather to anyone who thinks painting their face black is paramount to the cosplay.

Is anyone going to tell me with a straight face that this chick looks closer to Michone than the two posted above? How exactly does the black face make it "better"? If it wasn't for the fact I specifically searched for Mischone cosplay, I wouldn't know what the fuck this chick below is trying to portray.

 

[The Boat]

But as long as society exists there will be things that we consider taboo. It's not like it's illegal or ever will be, just don't be surprised when people get pissed at you and call you a dick.

Many things that were once taboo, aren't anymore, mostly because people discuss and think about things and become more tolerant, in the process separating the actual issues from non-issues surrounding them There was a time when you had to be a Catholic in Europe or you were fucked. Talking about sex? Taboo (still is). Curse words? Oh, would someone think of the children! Being taboo doesn't mean it's wrong, but yes, one should be aware of what might or might not offend someone and act accordingly.

 

[……forgetit]

Many things that were once taboo, aren't anymore, mostly because people discuss and think about things and become more tolerant, in the process separating the actual issues from non-issues surrounding them . There was a time when you had to be a Catholic in Europe or you were fucked. Talking about sex? Taboo (still is). Curse words? Oh, would someone think of the children! Being taboo doesn't mean it's wrong, but yes, one should be aware of what might or might not offend someone and act accordingly.

My usual reaction to wither I care is if someone is being hurt or not, if the answer is no, I usually don't care what you do, the issue with dressing as a race is that people were hurt by it, mocked, ridiculed and propagated against. Not just African Americans, but also Native Americans, Asians, Israelis, and people of middle eastern decent. The history behind practices actually does matter. As far as when it won't be offensive to paint yourself as another race, I'm pretty sure it will never happen, because people are lazy, and when people do this lazily it becomes a caricature, which will always be offensive.

 

[Irminsul]

no mater the context people will get offended. Also the rest of your point boils down to it shouldn't matter whether someone is offended or not, and if in your mind you don't care who you offend, by all means go for it. But as long as society exists there will be things that we consider taboo. It's not like it's illegal or ever will be, just don't be surprised when people get pissed at you and call you a dick.

No, I never said that and I don't think that. I just said anyone being offended shouldn't be the sole criterion to decide whether something is offensive. Because then we just can stop doing anything meaningful, as there will always be someone taking offence.

And I don't mean skin colouring or swastikas, I mean tumblr posts taking offence at BDSM guides because they supposedly endorse rape. You don't have a right not to be offended (emphasis on "offended" as in there being nothing in it covered by discrimination laws and such).

That's why society is important, as it – in my opinion – defines what is and isn't offensive through means of debates, discussions and laws for the especially vile things like racism. Because in contrast to what you've said, certain offensive statements are actually illegal in Europe, as they are categorised as "hate speech". That doesn't mean you're free to do whatever isn't illegal in my eyes and frankly, I find it quite unfair of you to state that.

 

[bobbychalkers]

But Retro I can't tell who these people suppose to be

1: Sombody from TLC
2: Koko B Ware
3: Kevin Garnett
4: Renaissance-era Tech N9ne
5: Blonde Anita Baker

 

[Silky]

wooow whatever dude

I just said that cosplay to me is a harmless form of entertainment.

but whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Isn't the point of cosplay and where most of the money for the cosplay goes to is the...costume?

You can have a wholly authentic and top notch costume for your cosplay. Painting your face doesn't add to it. In fact it makes the getup really tacky.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/22/khloe-kardashian-native-american-headdress_n_5519514.html

what was the point of this? That because Kloe Kardashian did something offensive, Kim Kardashian deserves to have someone dress up as her husband in blackface? And is Kermit the frog supposed to be you, congrulating yourself for such a wicked link?

 

[……forgetit]

No, I never said that and I don't think that. I just said anyone being offended shouldn't be the sole criterion to decide whether something is offensive. Because then we just can stop doing anything meaningful, as there will always be someone taking offence.

And I don't mean skin colouring or swastikas, I mean tumblr posts taking offence at BDSM guides because they supposedly endorse rape. You don't have a right not to be offended (emphasis on "offended" as in there being nothing in it covered by discrimination laws and such).

That's why society is important, as it – in my opinion – defines what is and isn't offensive through means of debates, discussions and laws for the especially vile things like racism. Because in contrast to what you've said, certain offensive statements are actually illegal in Europe, as they are categorised as "hate speech". That doesn't mean you're free to do whatever isn't illegal in my eyes and frankly, I find it quite unfair of you to state that.

My mistake, I misread your your post. I see your point on wither or not something is offensive or not, but at the current time coloring your skin to look like another race is very offensive. You say multiple times that you aren't sure what the answer is. I'd say at the moment it just shouldn't be done. Maybe at some point in history it will be okay to dress as another race as a form of flattery, but I really doubt it, The history behind doing so is just too great. Also I wasn't aware that hate speech was illegal where you are, In the US it's taboo and very much looked down upon, but not illegal, but still my apologies for misinterpreting your message.

 

[BHZ Mayor]

If you think that painting your skin is necessary to dress up as a black person, then that tells me that you think that the absolute one defining characteristic of any given black person is the fact that they're black.

If you think that, then guess what? Congratulations, you're probably a racist.

Also, people bringing up Tropic Thunder as a defense either didn't watch the movie or weren't paying attention.

 

[Retro_]

I wouldn't say RDJ in Tropic Thunder was acceptable. They created a buffer in that RDJ is really playing a white person dressed in blackface for a role and the comedy came from how absurd that was, but at the end of the day it just seemed like a weak excuse for them to do black face

It didn't really make alot of sense at all within the context of the movie and even though they apparently edited it down ALOT to not offend anyone, it's still a white guy pretending to be a "BLACK SARGE" with a wig and body paint on.

So I kinda stand by that there's really no socially acceptable context for it. ever.

 

[BHZ Mayor]

I wouldn't say RDJ in Tropic Thunder was acceptable. They created a buffer in that RDJ is really playing a white person dressed in blackface for a role and the comedy came from how absurd that was, but at the end of the day it just seemed like a weak excuse for them to do black face

It didn't really make alot of sense at all within the context of the movie and even though they apparently edited it down ALOT to not offend anyone, it's still a white guy pretending to be a "BLACK SARGE" with a wig and body paint on.

So I kinda stand by that there's really no socially acceptable context for it. ever.

This is one of the plot points in the movie. It wasn't acceptable. Brandon T. Jackson's character and RDJ's character argue throughout the movie about it, to the point where his character has this inner conflict about how far he'll go for a movie role (realizing the whole thing about Simple Jack also applied to himself), and he ends up taking off his wig and dropping the act.

 

[Kraftwerk]

what was the point of this? That because Kloe Kardashian did something offensive, Kim Kardashian deserves to have someone dress up as her husband in blackface? And is Kermit the frog supposed to be you, congrulating yourself for such a wicked link?

Shuri is a troll that like to stir shit up.

 

[Wynnebeck]

This thread makes me weep. Beysus not like this.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

I wouldn't say RDJ in Tropic Thunder was acceptable. They created a buffer in that RDJ is really playing a white person dressed in blackface for a role and the comedy came from how absurd that was, but at the end of the day it just seemed like a weak excuse for them to do black face

It didn't really make alot of sense at all within the context of the movie and even though they apparently edited it down ALOT to not offend anyone, it's still a white guy pretending to be a "BLACK SARGE" with a wig and body paint on.

So I kinda stand by that there's really no socially acceptable context for it. ever.

What? Yes it did, the holier than thou white Australian actor thought he would play a better black person than an actual black person. The rest of the film shows that, no he can't and he is ridiculous. Its an extension of the method acting Daniel Day Lewis does, to the point of satire.

I'm surprised no one has brought up Lethal Weapon 5 and 6 yet.

 

[Messi]

I don't get why kim kardashian bothers everyone so much. Can't you just ignore her and her family if you don't like them. Why attack for no reason.

 

[Irminsul]

My mistake, I misread your your post. I see your point on wither or not something is offensive or not, but at the current time coloring your skin to look like another race is very offensive. You say multiple times that you aren't sure what the answer is. I'd say at the moment it just shouldn't be done. Maybe at some point in history it will be okay to dress as another race as a form of flattery, but I really doubt it, The history behind doing so is just too great. Also I wasn't aware that hate speech was illegal where you are, In the US it's taboo and very much looked down upon, but not illegal, but still my apologies for misinterpreting your message.

Oh I see, than I probably should've stuck with your post was just due to a misunderstanding and not due to malicious intent. Sorry for that.

As for your point: In general, I agree. On the other hand, I am European and while not Dutch, we do have the tradition of kids playing the Three Wise Men on 6 January, and yes, that includes a black Caspar. I think I even played Caspar as a kid. And that all was definitely without any racist intent, because you were just someone with a different skin colour. Whether this is just blatantly ignoring history, eh, I don't know. To me it wasn't, but I can see why you could feel this way.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I don't get why kim kardashian bothers everyone so much. Can't you just ignore her and her family if you don't like them. Why attack for no reason.

She had sex with black guys, that makes many people mad. And she (Ray J actually) recorded their sex act and now she's rich! That too makes people mad; do you not understand. She had SEX on camera! OH MY GOD! That's like totes worse than nazis or something man!

SEX
ON
CAMERA!!!!

 

[jWILL253]

wooow whatever dude

I just said that cosplay to me is a harmless form of entertainment.

but whatever makes you sleep better at night.

I'm literally praying that you're not this obtuse...

 

[Kraftwerk]

She had sex with black guys, that makes many people mad. And she (Ray J actually) recorded their sex act and now she's rich! That too makes people mad; do you not understand. She had SEX on camera! OH MY GOD! That's like totes worse than nazis or something man!

SEX
ON
CAMERA!!!!

Such low moral character she has 'hops on high-horse and rides away'

 

[……forgetit]

Oh I see, than I probably should've stuck with your post was just due to a misunderstanding and not due to malicious intent. Sorry for that.

As for your point: In general, I agree. On the other hand, I am European and while not Dutch, we do have the tradition of kids playing the Three Wise Men on 6 January, and yes, that includes a black Caspar. I think I even played Caspar as a kid. And that all was definitely without any racist intent, because you were just someone with a different skin colour. Whether this is just blatantly ignoring history, eh, I don't know. To me it wasn't, but I can see why you could feel this way.

It's not racism, more just ignorance. I'm not going to blame people for doing something if they don't know any better, the issue is when you become educated on the matter, once you know better and continue to do it then it becomes offensive and pretty messed up.

 

[Slayven]

1: Sombody from TLC
2: Koko B Ware
3: Kevin Garnett
4: Renaissance-era Tech N9ne
5: Blonde Anita Baker

Not Tech N9ne

 

[botty]

I don't get why kim kardashian bothers everyone so much. Can't you just ignore her and her family if you don't like them. Why attack for no reason.

It's hard to ignore something that flares up like herpes on your television so often.

 

[Satch]

see beysus this is why the hive dont claim you

i cant believe youd compare black people to... manjin buu and the hulk

 

[MormaPope]

Kim being so attractive and the porn video being so bad is pretty disheartening. Would be like hoverboards being real but you can only float for 10 seconds before it turns into a normal skateboard.

 

[Wazzy]

see beysus this is why the hive dont claim you

i cant believe youd compare black people to... manjin buu and the hulk

Didn't you know pink and green skinned people are so oppressed that people don't even know they exist? Clearly black people don't know what real oppression is like. They need to suck up blackface because the pinks and greens have to watch in horror as people cosplay Buu and Hulk. All the time.

 

[EscoBlades]

wooow whatever dude

I just said that cosplay to me is a harmless form of entertainment.

but whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Seanspeed mark 2

 

[Silky]

I don't get why kim kardashian bothers everyone so much. Can't you just ignore her and her family if you don't like them. Why attack for no reason.

didn't you hear? she's fake, and her fakeness invalidates her from being offended by things that are offensive

Seanspeed mark 2

 

[Supermanisdead]

Beysus not like this...

 

[Gordon Shumway]

But Retro I can't tell who these people suppose to be

1: Sombody from TLC
2: Koko B Ware
3: Kevin Garnett
4: Renaissance-era Tech N9ne
5: Blonde Anita Baker

 

[Majmun]

I just don't see many things as being offensive, and I don't like to offend. Maybe I'm just ignorant on this matter, sure.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Such low moral character she has 'hops on high-horse and rides away'

Dear Kim, good luck on marrying a good white guy after this!

 

[Supermanisdead]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/22/khloe-kardashian-native-american-headdress_n_5519514.html

have you ever made a post that hasn't been a complete and utter failure?

 

[royalan]

Y'all leave my boo Beysus alone. Getting him all tongue-tied and shit. It's that hive in him...

 

[bishoptl]

You people.

I'm coming back to this thread later on.

 

[bishoptl]

Here's today's Canada Day™ ProTip:

If your cultural traditions are based on race-baiting caricatures such as big red lips, kinky afro hair and slapping black paint on your face, it's a shitty cultural tradition. Full stop.

Morons.

 

[Kraftwerk]

This thread was truly something else. Really brought out the ugly in some posters, even after many tried to educate them over, and over, and over again.

Spoiler

Dont hurt me if we werent meant to post here again

 

[Log4Girlz]

Why do some people really, really want to use black face? I mean, is it really such a huge deal to like, stop doing that shit.

 

[botty]

Well, let me just take my damn time to read what happened in here after I made my exit.

 

[Fritz]

I've also just read that German "comedian" Oliver Pocher who was there with her somehow answered some journalist's question with a line akin to "We are gonna dance like n****s in Vienna.". Dude is an absolute idiot.