Destiny Beta Thread: Moon wizards make Pet Sounds with space magic in a bottle

What is your favorite class?

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Jest Chillin said:
Then don't fight a Titan in close enough quarters to allow the super to play into the firefight. There are multiple entries to every control point on the map. No less than 3 per point iirc. If you know that two of those entries are choke points then try the third. Or poke your head/fire some shots to bait them forward and then nade the choke. Or any number of possibilities.

If a Titan has a super and he's camping a chokepoint specifically to smash you when you push, that's not lower skill cap, that's map control and denial. We don't even know about all the hard counters for the various supers. Give the game time to be played and the meta to develop and then we can judge whether or not "the skillcap" is lowered.
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Trying to not fight a Titan at close range is fine as a general strategy, but you're going to have situations with the one in the GIF, and I can't tell if a Titan has their super or not.

If you're okay with that then that's fine obviously, and you'll probably be able to enjoy PvP more that myself because of it. I think that's some poor game mechanics (and those mechanics are further worsened by apparently not even needing to aim your super, you just get a free kill).
 
Gonna give Hunter a try during the beta. I'm pretty much dead set on Titan since I really enjoyed using that class in the Alpha but I'll give hunter a shot
 
Is it known if the game supports cross-region play? it might be a dumb question, but I've been getting burned quite a bit lately with that.
 
Kyoufu said:
Ask Bungie?
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Might not be Bungie's decision? My point is that we don't know. I can assume that the pay model for Destiny is different on PS3 and PS4 so that could be an issue unlike FFIX where it's a pure MMO and both PS3 and PS4 both have the same pay model.

However, this cross-platform play with regard to Microsoft and Sony is ultimately absolute assumption -- especially since Microsoft's leadership has almost completely changed. The real reason cross-platform play won't happen between Xbox One and PS4 is because it would be a logistical nightmare since you have Xbox Live and PSN to contend with. You can't really get different systems like that working together.
 
Steelyuhas said:
Trying to not fight a Titan at close range is fine as a general strategy, but you're going to have situations with the one in the GIF, and I can't tell if a Titan has their super or not.

If you're okay with that then that's fine obviously, and you'll probably be able to enjoy PvP more that myself because of it. I think that's some poor game mechanics (and those mechanics are further worsened by apparently not even needing to aim your super, you just get a free kill).
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Uh, that GIF shows a skilled play in taking out a turret, yet poor mechanics...what? And you definitely need to aim it, even if it feels like those that used it against you didn't.
 
Overdoziz said:
Getting fucked over only once in a match and still one time too many. I've had matches in the alpha where I played great, but where I felt cheated by the game just because of those couple of deaths that happened purely because the person who killed me happened to have his bar filled up. How do you fight against something like that? At least with the heavy ammo I can see that it has spawned and has been picked up so I can anticipate having to fight against heavy weaponry. With the supers you can't practically predict it.
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What they need is a "hardcore" mode without supers. I also think they're going to be a big problem in pvp; the fun factor is going to fade and all we'll be left with is COD-esque killstreaks. I'd honestly be okay with supers if you only got them once or twice a match at most and their radius was dramatically lowered.
 
Steelyuhas said:
Trying to not fight a Titan at close range is fine as a general strategy, but you're going to have situations with the one in the GIF, and I can't tell if a Titan has their super or not.

If you're okay with that then that's fine obviously, and you'll probably be able to enjoy PvP more that myself because of it. I think that's some poor game mechanics (and those mechanics are further worsened by apparently not even needing to aim your super, you just get a free kill).
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It's not like it's always guaranteed a kill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2cfQl2kaU

Using your Super efficiently is a part of the game.
 
Steelyuhas said:
Trying to not fight a Titan at close range is fine as a general strategy, but you're going to have situations with the one in the GIF, and I can't tell if a Titan has their super or not.
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Well it just depends on what level you want to play at. Team callouts, tracking enemy kills and locations along with the time passed in the match will all give pretty accurate clues as to who has what and where they generally are. So at that point the skill factor is a mental one rather than a twitch one. But anytime you run through a choke point like the one in the gif, you should be prepared to walk into a wall of pressure, no matter what game you're playing. It could be a sniper holding down the exit, or a dude with a nasty shotty. It's all the same in the end. /shrug

Steelyuhas said:
If you're okay with that then that's fine obviously, and you'll probably be able to enjoy PvP more that myself because of it. I think that's some poor game mechanics (and those mechanics are further worsened by apparently not even needing to aim your super, you just get a free kill).
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Well yeah. Not everyone will enjoy it but that doesn't make it poor game mechanics. Just game mechanics that you don't enjoy. And the Fist of Havoc is a pretty decent sized AoE for that choke. Whether he faced him or not that guy was going to die.
 
Tekku said:
Oh, it didn't even damage him? I know Titans can upgrade Fist of Havoc so that they won't take much damage when using it.
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Perhaps, that was it and he was only hit by splash damage from the attack and survived. Thanks for telling me that.

Death to the Titan and Hunter scum!
 
I think the main problem people have with the supers is that people can whip them out at a moments notice with their opponents having no idea/no chance to properly anticipate them. I think more people would be okay with the super moves if players had some kind of visual identification when another player has their super ready.

If players shimmered or had some kind of aura around them when their supers were powered up, it would give other players a chance to properly anticipate them. The balance of power would still be in favor of the player with the super, but it would mean that players without a super would still have a good chance for fight or flight. It would also mean that supers would take more skill in order to be truly rewarded for their usage.

I'm pretty sure someone/some people mentioned in the Alpha that maybe players should show up as gold markers on the radar, which could work too.
 
theAntagonist said:
I think the main problem people have with the supers is that people can whip them out at a moments notice with their opponents having no idea/no chance to properly anticipate them. I think more people would be okay with the super moves if players had some kind of visual identification when another player has their super ready.

If players shimmered or had some kind of aura around them when their supers were powered up, it would give other players a chance to properly anticipate them. The balance of power would still be in favor of the player with the super, but it would mean that players without a super would still have a good chance for fight or flight. It would also mean that supers would take more skill in order to be truly rewarded for their usage.

I'm pretty sure someone/some people mentioned in the Alpha that maybe players should show up as gold markers on the radar, which could work too.
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I'm against the radar idea, but a shimmer could work. Gold aura for Hunter, purple for Warlock, and light blue for Titan. Or the aura could simply be the color of whichever super they have equipped at the time.
 
Steelyuhas said:
Talking about the GIF with the players that run around the corner.
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Ah okay.

The super was aimed but because it's in close proximity and there's only one other player in proximity it shifts the players character towards the other (giving the impression of not having to aim) to play the animation. Death could have been avoided by paying closer attention to radar (full on sprint with the intentions of going around the corner means either super or heavy ammo.)

I will say that the radius needed to be toned down a bit for the Titan super in the alpha, but that's really the only gripe I had with them.
 
MasterForm said:
I'm against the radar idea, but a shimmer could work. Gold aura for Hunter, purple for Warlock, and light blue for Titan. Or the aura could simply be the color of whichever super they have equipped at the time.
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Yeah I think a shimmer or aura would work better than the radar idea too, because if multiple people had their supers ready, then you'd see multiple enemies with supers at once. Making it a visible cue tied to the players themselves and not the radar would encourage more visual teamwork than just being able to quickly glance at the radar.
 
MasterForm said:
I'm against the radar idea, but a shimmer could work. Gold aura for Hunter, purple for Warlock, and light blue for Titan. Or the aura could simply be the color of whichever super they have equipped at the time.
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Hunters do glow gold when they activate Golden Gun. And they can get killed during the animation where they turn it on. I learned that the hard way = But it helped teach me the proper timing of using it (Before rounding corners or entering rooms).

But you meant a visual to indicate someone's super is fully charged? That would be fair.
 
Kyoufu said:
It's not like it's always guaranteed a kill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2cfQl2kaU

Using your Super efficiently is a part of the game.
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I do like the ability to use your player movement options well like here.
Jest Chillin said:
Well it just depends on what level you want to play at. Team callouts, tracking enemy kills and locations along with the time passed in the match will all give pretty accurate clues as to who has what and where they generally are. So at that point the skill factor is a mental one rather than a twitch one. But anytime you run through a choke point like the one in the gif, you should be prepared to walk into a wall of pressure, no matter what game you're playing. It could be a sniper holding down the exit, or a dude with a nasty shotty. It's all the same in the end. /shrug

Well yeah. Not everyone will enjoy it but that doesn't make it poor game mechanics. Just game mechanics that you don't enjoy. And the Fist of Havoc is a pretty decent sized AoE for that choke. Whether he faced him or not that guy was going to die.
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You can communicate what weapons players are using, you can't communicate if a player has a super ready or not.

Not much more reason to continue this discussion though, clearly we have opposing opinions here.
 
Steelyuhas said:
I do like the ability to use your player movement options well like here.

You can communicate what weapons players are using, you can't communicate if a player has a super ready or not.

Not much more reason to continue this discussion though, clearly we have opposing opinions here.
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Supers generate from zero to full in just under 5 minutes. Tracking which enemies are getting kills and where the enemies getting the most kills are, while keeping track of the time will give you pretty accurate guesses of when a specific player has a Super ready. When an enemy uses a super, call out who it was and where they are so your team knows they're not going to have one up for a bit.

I feel like you're looking at everything from a public game, run and gun, gotta get my K/D high kind of way rather than looking at it from the perspective of solid team play.
 
theAntagonist said:
I think the main problem people have with the supers is that people can whip them out at a moments notice with their opponents having no idea/no chance to properly anticipate them. I think more people would be okay with the super moves if players had some kind of visual identification when another player has their super ready.

If players shimmered or had some kind of aura around them when their supers were powered up, it would give other players a chance to properly anticipate them. The balance of power would still be in favor of the player with the super, but it would mean that players without a super would still have a good chance for fight or flight. It would also mean that supers would take more skill in order to be truly rewarded for their usage.

I'm pretty sure someone/some people mentioned in the Alpha that maybe players should show up as gold markers on the radar, which could work too.
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Precisely. It's all very well for people to come up with "but if you had..." suggestions, but generally you have no warning, and no chance of survival against any of the Supers. If you survive one, it's generally the fault of the super user, not some clever ploy by you. I've kind of got over the fact that supers are a part of PVP. I'm just praying for some kind of nerf. Make me feel like it was avoidable, and probably reduce the frequency too.
 
Jest Chillin said:
Supers generate from zero to full in just under 5 minutes. Tracking which enemies are getting kills and where the enemies getting the most kills are, while keeping track of the time will give you pretty accurate guesses of when a specific player has a Super ready. When an enemy uses a super, call out who it was and where they are so your team knows they're not going to have one up for a bit.

I feel like you're looking at everything from a public game, run and gun, gotta get my K/D high kind of way rather than looking at it from the perspective of solid team play.
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My perspective is I don't find game mechanics where people pulling a get out of jail free card out of their back pocket without others being able to be sure if they have it competitively viable and therefore damaging PvP play.
 
Jest Chillin said:
Supers generate from zero to full in just under 5 minutes. Tracking which enemies are getting kills and where the enemies getting the most kills are, while keeping track of the time will give you pretty accurate guesses of when a specific player has a Super ready. When an enemy uses a super, call out who it was and where they are so your team knows they're not going to have one up for a bit.

I feel like you're looking at everything from a public game, run and gun, gotta get my K/D high kind of way rather than looking at it from the perspective of solid team play.
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Player prediction is a huge thing in every multiplayer game, and a lot of player satisfaction comes from predicting something correctly. Even Call of Duty, arguably the biggest "run and gun, gotta get my K/D high" type of game, has ways of giving information to the player that the enemy has an ability right now. The easiest thing to relate a super to is a Predator. You know that a player has 5 kills, so they might have a Predator ready. When they actually do use it, there are both audio and video cues notifying that you are about 3 seconds away from potential death. From what I have seen of Supers, there aren't any cues whatsoever. As a result of that, there aren't any signs of when a player can use a Super, and they have no ability to accurately predict the outcome.

If you think someone is going to remember when Supers are used and judge when the next one is coming, then I suggest you read up on short-term memory and how quickly things are pushed out of the brain. If you want an article on how it applies to game design, here's one from former Bungie designer Jaime Griesemer. That focuses on just the player's abilities, but it can be extended to remembering other player's cooldowns.

Also, your last statement doesn't make sense. Making a high K/D has the important component of dying as little as possible. In team play, you are less of a detriment if you die less. If you are looking for the most solid of team play, it would be the 75-0 Penta-fection, which is also the highest distributed K/D possible.
 
Steelyuhas said:
My perspective is I don't find game mechanics where people pulling a get out of jail free card out of their back pocket without others being able to be sure if they have it competitively viable and therefore damaging PvP play.
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You say that you don't find it viable but there's been 4 days max of player gameplay to explore it, which isn't nearly enough time. To me, it sounds more like you don't like the gameplay and instead prefer a different type of gamplay.

CS plays Different from Halo which plays different from CoD but they're all competitively viable. They just have different approaches to it. We don't have enough experience with Destiny PvP yet to accurately determine if it's balanced and viable. Only enough to say, "It's not like what I like from other games" or "It's not like what I'm used to."
 
Jest Chillin said:
You say that you don't find it viable but there's been 4 days max of player gameplay to explore it, which isn't nearly enough time. To me, it sounds more like you don't like the gameplay and instead prefer a different type of gamplay.

CS plays Different from Halo which plays different from CoD but they're all competitively viable. They just have different approaches to it. We don't have enough experience with Destiny PvP yet to accurately determine if it's balanced and viable. Only enough to say, "It's not like what I like from other games" or "It's not like what I'm used to."
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Or, "I think having a back-pocket insta-gib is a bad mechanic for first person shooter games. Compared to FPS games, this is a bad mechanic"
 
Quick question GAME don't take payment for pre-orders right away right?

need to put down one more order so i can get a code for Xbone that way i'll have it in 3 formats to compare lol
 
Supers are a huge part of what makes Destiny unique and they are a blast to use. I found myself far more frustrated playing against the vehicles than against the Supers in the Alpha. They felt balanced in terms of power, scope, and frequency in the Alpha.
 
They absolutely need to give a visual indicator on players who have a super ready.

Supers are fun, but in order to keep the game balanced, I think you need to be able to assess your opponent's abilities relatively easily. I'd also like to see their frequency in matches dropped. Hopefully these are the types of things being tweaked from version to version.
 
Karl2177 said:
Player prediction is a huge thing in every multiplayer game, and a lot of player satisfaction comes from predicting something correctly. Even Call of Duty, arguably the biggest "run and gun, gotta get my K/D high" type of game, has ways of giving information to the player that the enemy has an ability right now. The easiest thing to relate a super to is a Predator. You know that a player has 5 kills, so they might have a Predator ready. When they actually do use it, there are both audio and video cues notifying that you are about 3 seconds away from potential death. From what I have seen of Supers, there aren't any cues whatsoever. As a result of that, there aren't any signs of when a player can use a Super, and they have no ability to accurately predict the outcome.
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CoD doesn't notify players that the enemies have abilities until those abilities are used. Destiny is the same in this regard. The difference between the two is that CoD does have a buffer of a few seconds before those abilities actually start killing people. However even in CoD, players can hoard abilities and unleash them one after the other leaving the enemy team largely helpless against them. The only way to track enemy abilities in CoD is to pay attention to enemy kills as they acrue them either through call outs or scoreboard watching. Which is the same thing I've suggested of Destiny.

Karl2177 said:
If you think someone is going to remember when Supers are used and judge when the next one is coming, then I suggest you read up on short-term memory and how quickly things are pushed out of the brain. If you want an article on how it applies to game design, here's one from former Bungie designer Jaime Griesemer. That focuses on just the player's abilities, but it can be extended to remembering other player's cooldowns.
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Except competitive players train themselves to remember times in all kinds of games. It's essential in any game where beneficial items spawn. A player doesn't need to know when a Special will be up down to the second, only have a general time period where one may be available so they can adjust their play with the possibility of the special in mind.

Karl2177 said:
Also, your last statement doesn't make sense. Making a high K/D has the important component of dying as little as possible. In team play, you are less of a detriment if you die less. If you are looking for the most solid of team play, it would be the 75-0 Penta-fection, which is also the highest distributed K/D possible.
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This depends highly on the game mode. In a standard 3 Capture Point game mode where holding areas accrue points, Dying to prevent a full cap or dying while baiting an enemy out of position is advantageous. Likewise in a CTF map, dying while distracting an enemy to keep them off your flag runner is advantageous.

Regardless of that, my last statement is very clearly a reference to players who play for K/D in public matches rather than playing the objective. And it was an obvious reference.


heckfu said:
Or, "I think having a back-pocket insta-gib is a bad mechanic for first person shooter games. Compared to FPS games, this is a bad mechanic"
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And that would qualify under "I don't like this." It's an opinion. Not a fact.
 
jon bones said:
They absolutely need to give a visual indicator on players who have a super ready.

Supers are fun, but in order to keep the game balanced, I think you need to be able to assess your opponent's abilities relatively easily.
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There's no way they haven't iterated back and forth on this idea during development. The Titan and Warlock have a much smaller range than the Hunter, which might explain the disparity in visual indicators.
 
Jest Chillin said:
And that would qualify under "I don't like this." It's an opinion. Not a fact.
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And that's what is classically considered 'losing the debate.' There are literally zero "facts" when talking about bad mechanics - it's all opinion. It's ok to think there's something bad about a video game you like, hell, I played Halo 4.

I'm still going to buy and play destiny, but it's a bad mechanic and that's ok.
 
Not sure I get the argument about the fairness of supers, everyone gets one, so whats the problem? Is it really that painful if you die to one? You get to inflict the same at some point. People crying about this stuff just causes devs to be less likely to try new or innovative ideas for fear of upsetting some small vocal minority... IMO :P
 
Steelyuhas said:
Ugh this kind of stuff is why I can't see myself playing much PvP. Total get out of jail free card here when he's surprised by that player for the insta-kill.

He's not even facing the other player!
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If that player had waited a second for the distance to close, he would have one shotted the Titan during the super, thereby wasting the Super and killing the player.

Welcome to Value Town.
 
Ramocalypse said:
Not sure I get the argument about the fairness of supers, everyone gets one, so whats the problem? Is it really that painful if you die to one? You get to inflict the same at some point. People crying about this stuff just causes devs to be less likely to try new or innovative ideas for fear of upsetting some small vocal minority... IMO :P
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You shouldnt have to counter a cheap mechanic with a cheap mechanic...that's the issue. It's lowering the skill gap of letting bad players get easy kills without trying.
 
heckfu said:
And that's what is classically considered 'losing the debate.' There are literally zero "facts" when talking about bad mechanics - it's all opinion. It's ok to think there's something bad about a video game you like, hell, I played Halo 4.

I'm still going to buy and play destiny, but it's a bad mechanic and that's ok.
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No. A bad mechanic breaks a game or in the case of PvP causes an imbalance. The Supers in Destiny haven't broken anything and everyone on either team has access to Supers. There's no inherent imbalance in that as far as we've seen yet. The biggest drawback that I currently see in the way the Supers are implemented is that getting group kills with Supers results in gaining your Super back way too fast, making comebacks way less likely.

Maybe through more gameplay we'll find that Fist of Havoc, specifically, is imbalanced as it has no hard counter due to invulnerability. Maybe not. The only way we'll find things like that out is through hours and hours of gameplay from thousands of people trying everything they can think of. Which is why I've been saying it's too soon to state that it's imbalanced or lacks skill.
 
Ramocalypse said:
Not sure I get the argument about the fairness of supers, everyone gets one, so whats the problem? Is it really that painful if you die to one? You get to inflict the same at some point. People crying about this stuff just causes devs to be less likely to try new or innovative ideas for fear of upsetting some small vocal minority... IMO :P
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Supers are great in PVE, but adding them to PVP is a mistake, at least in their current state. If innovation is throwing off a carefully crafted balancing act with an impossible to avoid 1 shot kill, then I don't want innovation.
 
Throwing my hat in the "I don't like the supers" category. Kills the competitive nature of the game pretty quickly when somebody can pull out a magic win card randomly and unannounced.
 
I never thought people had a problem with the super powers on PVP. I got killed so many times by them, but it was hilarious to get caught by one. Maybe I just don't care that much about K/D ratio and all that. Guess I'm just not that concerned about someone using a super 2-3 times a match.
 
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