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[JoeInky]

sup

Like I've said, I main Ness, he's my favourite character in the game.

But he's shit in 64, Melee and vanilla Brawl, I don't care if hitting his PKT2 or Neutral special or back air is satisfying if everything else about him is frustratingly bad.

So? I don't get why you're trying to take this discussion in a direction that implies that Sakurai said he doesn't care about balance. He never said that. In fact, there are several quotes from him about balance that I posted above.

Because now people have started talking about balance not mattering as long as a character is "fun", like Kirby or Ness apparently.

 

[IntelliHeath]

SSB4's first 11 newcomers vs. Brawl's first 11 newcomers:



Obviously Brawl introduced more heavy hitters, but I think this game's cast of newcomers is surprisingly solid.

Yeah, It felt so hype to see both newcomer list at once to see how much they really added to the game. I really hope the cut would be minimize.

 

[MrSaturn99]

But he's shit in 64

Wasn't he top tier a long while back? Whatever happened to that?

 

[Anura]

Maybe I'm just bitter because I really like playing Melee Puff and the brawl transition took out much of what made her fun.

As people have said other characters still have those satisfying moves that won't get you murdered like rest

 

[JoeInky]

Wasn't he top tier a long while back? Whatever happened to that?

I don't remember that ever being a thing?

 

[Ahnez]

Just a small note..

In Battlefield, brawl Jiggly can kill with rest if the other player is at ~60%

In melee, it would be weak, certainly, but in Brawl, theres almost no character that can kill someone at 60%, only characters like Snake, Ike, Dedede can..

 

[C.Olimar788]

Wasn't he top tier a long while back? Whatever happened to that?

It looks like he was considered to be high tier on the very first SSB64 tier list.

And, unsurprisingly, his PK Thunder was a big reason of why he dropped down. Really, Ness would just instantly become much better if his PK Thunder could go through people like Lucas' can, haha.

Just a small note..

In Battlefield, brawl Jiggly can kill with rest if the other player is at ~60%

In melee, it would be weak, certainly, but in Brawl, theres almost no character that can kill someone at 60%, only characters like Snake, Ike, Dedede can..

In all fairness, part of Jiggly being nerfed might have been mechanically since Brawl has little hitlag and characters in general live to be way longer. Still, it's not fun to hit with the single move in the game that it is hardest to hit with and has the most risk attached to it only for your opponent to not die and instead come back and get a free hit on you.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Maybe I'm just bitter because I really like playing Melee Puff and the brawl transition took out much of what made her fun.

As people have said other characters still have those satisfying moves that won't get you murdered like rest

To me its the removal of the bitchin Green Headband that hurts me the most with Jiggs.

WHY.

 

[IntelliHeath]

I watched the trailer again, because of the hype so I noticed something and decided to made the GIF

Look like you could store the lighting charge, like some characters did, such as Lucario and Donkey Kong.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Because now people have started talking about balance not mattering as long as a character is "fun", like Kirby or Ness apparently.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's not what they mean. They mean that they still have fun playing those characters even if balance wise they aren't too great.

Which I agree with. Nobody is saying the two will it should be mutually exclusive.

 

[MrSaturn99]

I don't remember that ever being a thing?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ness_(SSB)

On a competitive level, Ness was originally rather dominant, being ranked 3rd in the S tier on the first well-known international Super Smash Bros. tier list. In the second tier list, he dropped to 8th place, and dropped again on the third list. Theoretically, this is the largest tier drop of any character in the series. Ness's strong point are his excellent combos and air game, but his poor range gives him big problems facing excessive range such as Captain Falcon's up smash, or Kirby or Pikachu's up tilt. Ness's approach is also easily read, with his two projectiles being slow and predictable. Ness overall has below average international (except Japan) matchups, with an especially terrible matchup against Pikachu, and only two advantageous matchups (against two bottom tier characters). Ness has better matchups (being 5th) in the Japanese version compared to the international versions. This is mainly because Ness is stronger in the Japanese version and was nerfed in the international versions.

 

[Anura]

Just a small note..

In Battlefield, brawl Jiggly can kill with rest if the other player is at ~60%

In melee, it would be weak, certainly, but in Brawl, theres almost no character that can kill someone at 60%, only characters like Snake, Ike, Dedede can..

Jiggles is light enough that a missed rest means almost certain doom at even low percents (Ike's eruption kills her somewhere between 7-12% on FD but I don't remember the exact number)

 

[georly]

I watched the trailer again, because of the hype so I noticed something and decided to made the GIF

Look like you could store the lighting charge, like some characters did, such as Lucario and Donkey Kong.

I thought that was already confirmed via the interview? It's like samus/lucario/DK, but rather than the lightning getting bigger, it changes properties altogether.

 

[-Horizon-]

SSB4's first 11 newcomers vs. Brawl's first 11 newcomers:



Obviously Brawl introduced more heavy hitters, but I think this game's cast of newcomers is surprisingly solid.

Smash 4 newcomers just seems so good. I just like their variety more.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

Like I've said, I main Ness, he's my favourite character in the game.

But he's shit in 64, Melee and vanilla Brawl, I don't care if hitting his PKT2 or Neutral special or back air is satisfying if everything else about him is frustratingly bad.



Because now people have started talking about balance not mattering as long as a character is "fun", like Kirby or Ness apparently.

I've seen you talk a lot about competitive Smash on here, so I'm guessing you're a competitive player. One of the points I was trying to make was that in the kind of casual play that Sakurai envisions Smash to be "really about" (i.e., items, stage hazards, FFA,) those balance problems tend to disappear. I trust you that Ness fares poorly in competitive matches. But if whatever features of Ness that make him bad competitively are less of a problem casually, and if any reasonably competent player can do well with him in that setting, then yes, "fun" becomes the most important thing.

It's not that balance doesn't matter; it's that whatever balance problems may exist are much more benign in the chaos of casual play. That chaos tends to flatten out the tier list.

To me its the removal of the bitchin Green Headband that hurts me the most with Jiggs.

WHY.

My brother pretty much dropped Jiggly entirely in Brawl because Ninja Jigglypuff was removed haha

 

[kuroneko0509]

I think what turns off most people about Jigglypuff is that they probably don't realize she's the Mac of the air. (Or rather, Mac is the Puff of the ground.) I feel like Puff is easy once you realize all her strengths comes from being in the air. I got friends trying her out after I showed them that, and they all think she's really fun.

And I think it has to do with moveset design more than balance. The reason Puff isn't fun to play as in Brawl isn't because she's bad, but because she doesn't translate well into Brawl. I feel the same way with Falco as well, and he's great. (Though I guess maybe too used to Melee Falco being very diverse)
Ike is bad as well, but the reason he's so fun comes from the satisfaction of being able to hit like a truck. He was designed to have troubles hitting so that when you manage to get a kill with that sword, it feels that much more accomplishing. I know some don't know like that, because that is specifically why he's bad, but I noticed that's why most love using him. Makes me curious on the direction Sakurai will take with him in this game, since balancing seems more of a priority this time.


Oh, hi SmashGAF!

oh welcome :lol

I watched the trailer again, because of the hype so I noticed something and decided to made the GIF

Look like you could store the lighting charge, like some characters did, such as Lucario and Donkey Kong.

it was confirmed in the famitsu scans iirc

 

[SliceSabre]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's not what they mean. They mean that they still have fun playing those characters even if balance wise they aren't too great.

Which I agree with. Nobody is saying the two will it should be mutually exclusive.

Thank you, that's what I'm saying in regards to Kirby.

 

[Anura]

Edit: I'm speaking of personal experience when talking about Jiggs though. Maybe she just got hit the hardest...

Smash 4 newcomers just seems so good. I just like their variety more.

I feel like brawl was adding character that should have been in in the first place (DDD, MK, War) whereas 4 had most of the big names in and could experiment more

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

My brother pretty much dropped Jiggly entirely in Brawl because Ninja Jigglypuff was removed haha

The green pyjama hat is NOT a substitution... Goddamnit Sakurai, I'll pay for DLC, just make it happen!

 

[Spinosaurus]

Smash 4 newcomers just seems so good. I just like their variety more.

Agreed. I love that most of them bring a new series with them, and I like that Rosalina, Greninja and Robin/Lucina represent the new generation of their respective series.

The diversity is pretty great. I just want a Rhythm Heaven character now that I got Little Mac.

 

[PK Gaming]

I main Ness in every game and Project M is the only version of him that feels fun to play because it doesn't feel like I'm playing with two broken crutches.

Ness might be unique in brawl or melee or whatever it is you're referring too, but he's still complete shit and can be good without actually changing anything that makes him unique.

As a recovering Ness main, believe me when I say that the sooner you drop his miserable ass for someone with potential, the better.

 

[Ahnez]

I watched the trailer again, because of the hype so I noticed something and decided to made the GIF

Look like you could store the lighting charge, like some characters did, such as Lucario and Donkey Kong.

Also, looks like Villager cannot be damaged during the startup animation of the gyroid

 

[georly]

Also, looks like Villager cannot be damaged during the startup animation of the gyroid

Hard to tell if he has super armor (you still take damage, just no knockback), if he's purely invincible (unlikely) or if he's out of the fire's hitbox.

 

[IntelliHeath]

I thought that was already confirmed via the interview? It's like samus/lucario/DK, but rather than the lightning getting bigger, it changes properties altogether.

it was confirmed in the famitsu scans iirc

Oops, I forget all about it. At least, more gif for y'all.

Also, looks like Villager cannot be damaged during the startup animation of the gyroid

Yeah, he apparently have super armor at startup.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Blech. I'm going to relish knocking the shit out of Greninja every match. Ugly bastard.

 

[Toxi]

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

0_0

brawl falcon is so fun

brawl samus too

Brawl Samus is what happens when you give a slowish character no kill moves. :-(

 

[JoeInky]

I've seen you talk a lot about competitive Smash on here, so I'm guessing you're a competitive player. One of the points I was trying to make was that in the kind of casual play that Sakurai envisions Smash to be "really about" (i.e., items, stage hazards, FFA,) those balance problems tend to disappear. I trust you that Ness fares poorly in competitive matches. But if whatever features of Ness that make him bad competitively are less of a problem casually, and if any reasonably competent player can do well with him in that setting, then yes, "fun" becomes the most important thing.

It's not that balance doesn't matter; it's that whatever balance problems may exist are much more benign in the chaos of casual play. That chaos tends to flatten out the tier list.

My point is that it's stupid to place balance, "fun" and uniqueness before or after each other or whatever order, they should all take equal place.

Again compare Project M Ness to Brawl Ness.

He has exactly the same specials so what makes him unique and fun to casual players stays, except he actually has more tools available to him so he's actually balanced which makes it good for competitive players and any casual players that try to take it even a little seriously.

I find it very hard to believe that someone would enjoy Ness in Brawl, then move over to Project M and say "His PKT2 now goes further and it's harder for people to hit me out of it? The fuck is this? This isn't fun anymore"

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Samus and Jigglypuff were my mains in Melee... I felt lost when I got Brawl

 

[Anura]

Blech. I'm going to relish knocking the shit out of Greninja every match. Ugly bastard.

Greninja is awesome and you should feel bad

 

[IntelliHeath]

My favorite taunt from Robin

 

[georly]

0_0

Brawl Samus is what happens when you give a slowish character no kill moves. :-(

In my weird perfect world, every single fighter would have ONE meteor and everyone would have the same number of comparable KO moves (2-3). What the meteor and kill moves are are totally different for each fighter.

My favorite taunt from Robin

probably way less cool if you run out of tome AND have a bronze sword.

 

[JoeInky]

As a recovering Ness main, believe me when I say that the sooner you drop his miserable ass for someone with potential, the better.

I have a pocket Bowser, Ganondorf, Pikachu, Toon Link and Mario for if I start losing too much due to his poor recovery.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Has anyone petitioned Disney yet to buy Smash Bros. from Sakurai

It needs to be taken out of his greedy hands

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Greninja is awesome and you should feel bad

Nobody that uses their tounge as an item of clothing is anything remotely approaching awesome.

Has anyone petitioned Disney yet to buy Smash Bros. from Sakurai

It needs to be taken out of his greedy hands

Smash Infinity 5.0! With Darth Vader, Spiderman and Wolverine...

.. Oh and maybe a new Pokemon

 

[kuroneko0509]

http://a.pomf.se/zgghsa.webm

HOW COME I MISSED THIS WEBM??? THAT LAST... OMG

 

[PadWarrior]

Blech. I'm going to relish knocking the shit out of Greninja every match. Ugly bastard.

Mean dude lol

 

[IntelliHeath]

Has anyone petitioned Disney yet to buy Smash Bros. from Sakurai

It needs to be taken out of his greedy hands

Okay, I will call Disney to buy Nintendo.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Samus and Jigglypuff were my mains in Melee... I felt lost when I got Brawl

Captain Falcon and Dr. Mario.

All this nerf talk makes me worried about Wario.

 

[rawktapus]

My point is that it's stupid to place balance, "fun" and uniqueness before or after each other or whatever order, they should all take equal place.

Again compare Project M Ness to Brawl Ness.

He has exactly the same specials so what makes him unique and fun to casual players stays, except he actually has more tools available to him so he's actually balanced which makes it good for competitive players and any casual players that try to take it even a little seriously.

I find it very hard to believe that someone would enjoy Ness in Brawl, then move over to Project M and say "His PKT2 now goes further and it's harder for people to hit me out of it? The fuck is this? This isn't fun anymore"

That doesn't make him "not fun" to play in Brawl, though. I've mained Ness since 64, and I've always had a blast using him.

 

[PadWarrior]

Chip n Dale dlc please

 

[Aexact]

well with Melee when I used to play FFAs I had a buddy who would just fish for rests the entire game, every game. it worked decently well.


then brawl came out, and that strategy stopped working.

then we stopped playing brawl

God I hate that guy.

Obviously not your guy but there was this guy who we always played Smash at his place and when Brawl came out, he played Link and Samus because those are the characters he plays.

With Link, he quickly noticed the differences (though I think the real kicker was the Up+B) and then proceeded to suicide jump off the edges for the rest of his stocks in, I don't know, some sort of protest. It might've been less annoying if it wasn't one of the Metroid stages with lava and he just kept falling into the lava bouncing up until he could die proper.

With Samus, he grabbed the Smash Ball and blasted two of us away in the beam.
... But then he refused to play as Zero Suit Samus and proceeded to run away the rest of the match, grabbing onto the ledges, probably waiting for another Smash Ball. Two of us silently agreed to a truce and chased him down.

And we eventually stopped playing Smash at his place.

 

[PK Gaming]

I have a pocket Bowser, Ganondorf, Pikachu, Toon Link and Mario for if I start losing too much due to his poor recovery.

I don't have a problem with losing. As long as I gave it my all and played a match where I had a serious chance of winning, I'm content. I never really got to do that with Ness.

 

[random25]

Has anyone petitioned Disney yet to buy Smash Bros. from Sakurai

It needs to be taken out of his greedy hands

I can't wait to see Mickey Mouse beating the shit out of Mario!!!

Spoiler

NOT!

 

[JoeInky]

That doesn't make him "not fun" to play in Brawl, though. I've mained Ness since 64, and I've always had a blast using him.

Designing a character and putting balance behind everything instead of keeping it in mind the whole time leaves you with a character that's only fun for casuals unless he accidentally makes it balanced first time.

Designing a character with all three in mind makes everyone happy, and if you say that you enjoy Ness in Brawl but not in Project M, I think you'd be outright lying.

I don't have a problem with losing. As long as I gave it my all and played a match where I had a serious chance of winning, I'm content. I never really got to do that with Ness.

I stop playing Ness once the person realises how easy it is to just destroy him, I don't see the point in working twice as hard as the person sat next to me just to make the playing field even somewhat even (thankfully a lot of the people I play with aren't that good so I don't have to worry about it to much, but they're getting better so soon I'm going to have to drop him).

 

[kuroneko0509]

Has anyone petitioned Disney yet to buy Smash Bros. from Sakurai

It needs to be taken out of his greedy hands

Why don't you start it?

 

["D"]

Greninja is awesome and you should feel bad

I just want to attack Lucina and Rosalina with my..his tongue.

 

[rawktapus]

Designing a character and putting balance behind everything instead of keeping it in mind the whole time leaves you with a character that's only fun for casuals unless he accidentally makes it balanced first time.

Designing a character with all three in mind makes everyone happy, and if you say that you enjoy Ness in Brawl but not in Project M, I think you'd be outright lying.

I enjoy Ness in Brawl, I also enjoy Ness in what little I've played of Project M. But that doesn't make me hate how he plays in Brawl at all. I like playing as him in both games.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

That doesn't make him "not fun" to play in Brawl, though. I've mained Ness since 64, and I've always had a blast using him.

Exactly. Maybe he's even better in Project M (I don't have any experience with it, so I don't know,) but he's still a lot of fun in Brawl, and he's not so hideously underpowered that I can't do well with him. The fact that there's room for improvement doesn't negate my argument.

 

[Valjean Lafitte]

Like I've said, I main Ness, he's my favourite character in the game.

But he's shit in 64, Melee and vanilla Brawl
.

wat

Ness was an unstoppable force in 64, provided you knew how to use PK Thunder effectively.

 

[BGBW]

I guess it's because I liked characters like Toon Link and Wario that Brawl didn't concern me.

Then again I'm a free for all player so I never really focuses enough on one character to really feel the differences. Dr Mario's absence was kinda sad but I got over that quickly.