Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 10: Against the Odds, We Choose to Hype!

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The Great Gonzales said:
The trouble is, something like this would detract from Ness's uniqueness. Several characters already have reflectors (Star Fox guys, Pit) and teleporters (MK, Zelda,) whereas PK Thunder and PK Magnet are utterly unique moves. The only thing that even comes close to the Magnet is G&W's Oil Panic, and that's still very different.

I don't mean just to pick at those two particular ideas; as you said, they're just illustrations. But I want to point out that there are other considerations than loyalty to source material: in this case, uniqueness, which Sakurai has said is very important to him. Given the choice between a faithful move which is similar to many other moves and an embellished one which is totally unique, Sakurai will go with the unique one - and I think he's right to do so, since it makes the whole roster more diverse and interesting.
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I'm sure if you applied a little elbow grease, you could make those 2 moves unique. In PSI Teleport's case, Ness had to spin in place to use it in Earthbound. When he teleported, he also left a flaming trail. Maybe you could take those 2 aspects and apply that to Smash? Also, PSI Shield is trickier to differentiate and balance, but i'm confident Sakurai could have come up with a unique mechanic if he really put his mind to it.
 
PK Gaming said:
See, I subscribe to a completely different school of thought. I'm all about representing a character's original skillset and celebrating it, rather than changing it completely. I'd vastly prefer it if Sakurai accurately represented Ness's moveset, but added his own twist to them. It's still possible to make a character diverse AND faithful to the original incarnation with enough elbow grease. Like instead of PSI Magnet, Ness could use PSI Shield, which wouldn't absorb projectiles, but reflect them. Instead of PK Thunder, he could use PSI Teleport, which could have different applications when used on the ground and the air. PSI paralysis would replace PK Fire, and cause damage / paralysis (like ZSS's Down Smash). PSI Flash would remain the same, and PK Starstorm would be replaced by PK Rockin.

I don't dare consider myself to be a superior moveset designer or whatever. These are just examples to illustrate my point; i'm sure if Sakurai were to take a modern crack at Ness, I think he could come up with a better / more faithful moveset.
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I understand your point, but I believe that in the end, it's PSI powers. Unlike the Hydro Pump-using Charizard you brought up earlier, even though Ness doesn't use PK Starstorm or Thunder in Earthbound, it still fits the character's playstyle and visuals, and it doesn't feel out of place. I never played Earthbound prior to Smash 64 (it never came out here in Europe), and it didn't feel out of place for me, and even after playing through the entire series, it doesn't. The fact he doesn't use those powers in his games doesn't seem as "grave" to me as it seems to you.
The changes you propose also would seem to make him much less interesting - he sounds a lot like Zelda in this case. Plus, I feel like at this point, it would be weird for Smash's Ness to not have the moveset he has (bar minor changes).

JB-the-Hunter said:
On the topic of Ness and Robin, don't you guys think it would be best if Isaac makes it in for him to use fire, water and wind moves to go along with his earth moves, in order to represent the game as a whole as best as possible?
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Well since it's possible for an Earth Adept to learn other elements, I wouldn't be opposed to him having access to moves from other elements, as long as Earth is the primary element of his moveset.
 
Caladrius said:
I despise him on principle of being an alternate incarnation of a pre-existing character. I don't particularly dislike that particular incarnation of Link so much as I want a roster of individuals.

If nothing else he isn't Evil Cole so he's got that going for him.
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Yeah, even though he is my main in Brawl, I was kind of hoping that he wouldn't make it in Smash 4 so that a new character could make it. But since their are going to be clones anyway, I am happy to have him return. Like Lucina, I doubt he took the place of any potential newcomer.
 
Mr. Macintosh!! said:
Yeah, even though he is my main in Brawl, I was kind of hoping that he wouldn't make it in Smash 4 so that a new character could make it. But since their are going to be clones anyway, I am happy to have him return. Like Lucina, I doubt he took the place of any potential newcomer.
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I actually agree with that, now that I give it a bit of thought.

Hm.

Guess I'm definitely on team #nocuts now.

Unless Adam Malkovich is a newcomer, in which case I may actually die of an aneurysm.
 
Toon Link should've been ALBW Link and Adult Link should've been either OoT3D or SS Link. Zelda should've been SS Zelda and Impa should've taken Sheik's place.

I think Sakurai is awesome as a director but some choices are extremely underwhelming.
 
Still don't get all the Toon Link hate. Despite being a clone, he's one of the most reoccurring Link designs period. He deserves to be there.
 
I just want SOMETHING from 2D Zelda, since everything is taken from the 3D games. :< Temple is like the only thing from those games which is pretty underwhelming. (best stage tho)


Classic Ganon for Smash 4
 
To be fair, the 3D games took mostly everything from the 2D games. So aside from locales and some enemies, 2D Zelda is pretty solidly embodied by the 3D games' stuff. I'd appreciate more music, though. Ballad of the Windfish, Sakurai pls.

Also, re: Toon Link
I don't like most of the Zelda series, but I feel like given how different the styles between adult and young/toon Link have been in terms of games and gameplay, there's a case to be made to add both of them. That said, any additional Toon characters would kinda cross the line for me.
 
MisterHero said:
Toon Link should've been ALBW Link and Adult Link should've been either OoT3D or SS Link. Zelda should've been SS Zelda and Impa should've taken Sheik's place.
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Fuck you. Fuck everyone that says that. Sheik needs to stay.
 
MisterHero said:
Toon Link should've been ALBW Link and Adult Link should've been either OoT3D or SS Link. Zelda should've been SS Zelda and Impa should've taken Sheik's place.

I think Sakurai is awesome as a director but some choices are extremely underwhelming.
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JrmymLc.gif


Leave Zelda and Sheik aloooooneeee!
 
Caladrius said:
I actually agree with that, now that I give it a bit of thought.

Hm.

Guess I'm definitely on team #nocuts now.

Unless Adam Malkovich is a newcomer, in which case I may actually die of an aneurysm.
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If Adam is in the game, I'll choose Samus and put Adam in a CPU slot at level 1 and beat the crap out of him. After that, I'll forgive Other M.
 
MisterHero said:
Toon Link should've been ALBW Link and Adult Link should've been either OoT3D or SS Link. Zelda should've been SS Zelda and Impa should've taken Sheik's place.

I think Sakurai is awesome as a director but some choices are extremely underwhelming.
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This is actually the worst opinion.

also SS Zelda makes less sense as a fighter than TP zelda
 
I could've seen Impa replacing Sheik before, but now that Sheik is back, I think she never will get axed, solely based on the fact that she's received this enormous legacy by just being in 3 Smash games (and being top tier in Melee).
 
MisterHero said:
Toon Link should've been ALBW Link and Adult Link should've been either OoT3D or SS Link. Zelda should've been SS Zelda and Impa should've taken Sheik's place.

I think Sakurai is awesome as a director but some choices are extremely underwhelming.
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TP Zelda is the best Zelda design, so no.
 
Spinosaurus said:
I just want SOMETHING from 2D Zelda, since everything is taken from the 3D games. :< Temple is like the only thing from those games which is pretty underwhelming. (best stage tho)
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Link's Air Down A and (old) Air Up A are from AoL too. And the Toon Link design was used for the later 2d Zelda games (Four Swords), as well as a version with a different hat for Minish Cap.

Smash Bros also always kept the traditional Zelda theme, rather than using OoT's Hyrule Field (and the classic Zelda theme wasn't used or remixed at all in OoT) or MM's Termina Field in both the original and Melee. Even in Brawl the main Zelda theme still is clearly the classic one which gets two different remixes.

also SS Zelda makes less sense as a fighter than TP zelda
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And yet both are skins for the same Zelda in that Musou game.
 
Jedi Link said:
large.gif


Fuck you. Fuck everyone that says that. Sheik needs to stay.
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IntelliHeath said:
JrmymLc.gif


Leave Zelda and Sheik aloooooneeee!
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Moonlight said:
This is actually the worst opinion.

also SS Zelda makes less sense as a fighter than TP zelda
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Zelda got split into 2 characters so Sheik isn't even that important anymore. Unless they updated the Ocarina version. The non-existant TP version is silly.

SS Zelda is the literal reincarnation of a Goddess, who possibly once used a sword. She could keep all of her magic skills and still make sense.

And Skyward Sword Impa is 1) one of the best character designs in the entire series, 2) the most recent and relevant Sheikah, and 3) Impa herself has been there since Zelda 1. She is another series staple and duplicate characters stink. Not clones like Fox and Falco, but Armor Samus and Spandex Samus, Zelda and Sheik Zelda, etc. At least the 2 Links represent 2 distinct visions of the series.

If Nintendo were really ballsy I'd also update Samus to her Fusion design and give her old moveset to SA-X.

kuroneko0509 said:
TP Zelda is the best Zelda design, so no.
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My favorite version is Ocarina, but she isn't quite the face of the series right now.
 
Sponge said:
Still don't get all the Toon Link hate. Despite being a clone, he's one of the most reoccurring Link designs period. He deserves to be there.
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He's also a good example of how clones can be different from their prime forms without changing much terribly much. While it might be fun to have a moveset inspired directly by his games, he's still different enough from Link to feel unique.
 
SS Zelda never did any actual fighting though. Unless she's some puppet character where Impa does all the fighting and stuff and SS Zelda's specials are all positioning.
 
MisterHero said:
And Skyward Sword Impa is 1) one of the best character designs in the entire series, 2) the most recent and relevant Sheikah, and 3) Impa herself has been there since Zelda 1. She is another series staple and duplicate characters stink. Not clones like Fox and Falco, but Armor Samus and Spandex Samus, Zelda and Sheik Zelda, etc. At least the 2 Links represent 2 distinct visions of the series.
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I'm not against Impa's implementation. I'm against the implementation of Impa at the expense of Sheik. Why not just add Impa period? What's with the vendetta against Sheik? She's got one of the best designs in the series (yes, up there with SS Impa) and a cool, unique moveset that Smash 4 has only expanded. Getting rid of Sheik for an arbitrary 'duplicate' reasoning (man this distinction between clones/semi-clones/duplicates/whatever is really confusing) just to replace her with an identical-but-different character would just be lame and a disservice to both characters. Unless you wanted to just give Impa a new moveset and get rid of Sheik anyways which is just wasteful and frustrating to anyone who enjoyed the character in previous Smash games. It's not like losing Roy or Pichu, when their basic play-styles and moves were retained by their clone bases. Sheik is a wholly unique character that a lot of people (like me) enjoy playing as.

Duplicate characters are fine as long as they represent completely new movesets and I don't see how Sheik and Zelda technically being the same makes Sheik somehow less worthy of a slot.

And SS Zelda never did actual fighting and you'd have to reach even more to make her appear just as reasonable as TP Zelda bombing around doing shit is.

NeonZ said:
Because they're soon releasing a game where you'll get Skyward Sword Zelda in combat anyway.
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We're soon getting a game where there's an optional downloadable skin of both replacing an intended version of Zelda's design specifically for that game. It's not relevant.
 
Today my friend said to me "I can't believe they still call it Smash Bros"

Am I just desensitized? Never occurred to me...Is this something that maybe should be changed?
 
Red Arremer said:
Villain trailer with Mewtwo, Ganondorf and Ridley as newcomer. :p
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And Metaknight while we're at it. I guess Wario kind've counts too. If K Rool miraculously makes it in that would be another option. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a villain themed trailer seeing as how so many obviously returning villain veterans have been kept secret so far and lots of plausible newcomers are villainous characters as well.
 
MisterHero said:
He got a retro color in Brawl for a reason! Yeah, TL has appeared a lot but ALBW Link (his in-game model anyways) is a throwback to that classic, iconic Link.
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While Toon Link is pretty much a clone of Link, I feel like his art style (this includes his moves and such) and character proportions deviate him from being a 100% clone like Lucina. ALBW Link would (imo) feel a lot more closer to Link than say Toon Link, which feels more like a spin-off of Link.

We can get into the discussion of ALBW Link having all the items in his game disposable for his moveset, but if Sakurai hasn't done that for Toon Link yet, I highly doubt ALBW Link would get that sort of treatment.
 
JStein0222 said:
Today my friend said to me "I can't believe they still call it Smash Bros"

Am I just desensitized? Never occurred to me...Is this something that maybe should be changed?
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Why? I mean, it's technically not "Smash Bros", it's "Super Smash Bros." (which is short for "Brothers"), and a direct reference to Super Mario Bros.

OrangeGrayBlue said:
And Metaknight while we're at it. I guess Wario kind've counts too. If K Rool miraculously makes it in that would be another option. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a villain themed trailer seeing as how so many obviously returning villain veterans have been kept secret so far and lots of plausible newcomers are villainous characters as well.
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Agreed. That said, I think Wario would probably be better off for the Rhythm Heaven character. And if Shulk makes it in, I feel like ROB would be the appropriate choice for a veteran to appear alongside him.
 
MisterHero said:
And Skyward Sword Impa is 1) one of the best character designs in the entire series, 2) the most recent and relevant Sheikah, and 3) Impa herself has been there since Zelda 1. She is another series staple and duplicate characters stink. Not clones like Fox and Falco, but Armor Samus and Spandex Samus, Zelda and Sheik Zelda, etc. At least the 2 Links represent 2 distinct visions of the series.
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gameplay clones are worse than duplicate/alternate form characters by a mile IMO but I guess I can see where you're coming from. Ideally there wouldn't be any duplicates at all. But I think replacing shiek after shiek has been in SSB so long is a little cold.
 
JStein0222 said:
Today my friend said to me "I can't believe they still call it Smash Bros"

Am I just desensitized? Never occurred to me...Is this something that maybe should be changed?
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Considering that it's a play on "Super Mario Bros" I don't see the problem, but I can see the point. Maybe just shorten it to "Smash"? Eh.
 
The more I think about it, the weirder I think the name Super Smash Bros is on it's own

JB-the-Hunter said:
It's a play on the title "Super Mario Bros."
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I get that, but why play on Mario Bros when the game is really about celebrating all franchises? Why choose that one?
(I kinda know why, but somebody has to play on this side of things)
 
Moonlight said:
I'm not against Impa's implementation. I'm against the implementation of Impa at the expense of Sheik. Why not just add Impa period? What's with the vendetta against Sheik? She's got one of the best designs in the series (yes, up there with SS Impa) and a cool, unique moveset that Smash 4 has only expanded. Getting rid of Sheik for an arbitrary 'duplicate' reasoning (man this distinction between clones/semi-clones/duplicates/whatever is really confusing) just to replace her with an identical-but-different character would just be lame and a disservice to both characters. Unless you wanted to just give Impa a new moveset and get rid of Sheik anyways which is just wasteful and frustrating to anyone who enjoyed the character in previous Smash games. It's not like losing Roy or Pichu, when their basic play-styles and moves were retained by their clone bases. Sheik is a wholly unique character that a lot of people (like me) enjoy playing as.

Duplicate characters are fine as long as they represent completely new movesets and I don't see how Sheik and Zelda technically being the same makes Sheik somehow less worthy of a slot.

And SS Zelda never did actual fighting and you'd have to reach even more to make her appear just as reasonable as TP Zelda bombing around doing shit is.
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I'll be fair and just suggest adding Impa rather than deleting Sheik. After all, Impa has a very different body and that could play into her movements.

My basic goal to keep the existing movesets and introduce even more characters. Zelda and Impa soulds cooler than 2 versions of the same Zelda.
 
JStein0222 said:
I get that, but why play on Mario Bros when the game is really about celebrating all franchises? Why choose that one?
(I kinda know why, but somebody has to play on this side of things)
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Because the game concept is based on mixing a fighting game with platforming, of which Super Mario Bros. is probably the best known and recognized name out there, particularly considering the other platformer characters that appeared in the first game are almost entirely from the greater Mario universe (Yoshi and DK - only Samus is a platformer character who isn't from the extended Mario universe).
 
Red Arremer said:
Because the game concept is based on mixing a fighting game with platforming, of which Super Mario Bros. is probably the best known and recognized name out there, particularly considering the other platformer characters that appeared in the first game are almost entirely from the greater Mario universe (Yoshi and DK - only Samus is a platformer character who isn't from the extended Mario universe).
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Oooh that's a good answer. Cool, thanks.

I guess my real thing is who is sitting in a room saying "Super Smash Bros" - yep, that's the title! It's great, but crazy! (Classic Nintendo <3)
 
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