Jimquisition (July 21) - The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine

gohepcat said:
So companies should just build all of their products by consensus?

Great products are built with singular vision despite the overwhelming din of naysayers. In 2004 the iPod Mini launched and according to nearly every tech fan-boy it was a colossal mistake and would be an absolute financial disaster. Thousands of posts, almost all negative right here. No one could even imagine why anyone would want to give up storage space for size.

No one owes you anything. MS, Sony, and Nintendo should lead by having a vision and sticking to it, not listening to the ravings of superfans.
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I do agree with you on companies sticking to their vision and what they want to do. And no they shouldn't always follow what the masses want, but you still need to acknowledge that ultimately it's up to the consumers whether such a product succeeds or fails. We, the consumers, also don't owe any company anything. It's a two-way street here.

So when consumers reject products that they find undesirable these companies shouldn't be surprised. And they certainly shouldn't be spouting bullshit like "people just weren't ready for it" or "we were just too innovative for consumers," acting like people were just too stupid to accept being given the honor of paying for such a premium product. It's garbage. And I guess you can say it comes off as... entitled.

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But seriously though, I think Jim is spot-on here. I don't really watch his videos much, but perhaps I should start. They are quite informative and entertaining.
 
I don't get the point of demanding an apology for features that were never implemented in a single retail console anybody purchased. They shared what they had in mind, we let them know it wouldn't fly, so they changed it before launch. The only thing they really stuck to was Kinect, and as we all know the market told them all they needed to hear about that decision. Either buy the thing or don't, but waiting for a big sloppy apology blowjob seems kind of dumb.
 
akidnamededdy said:
I don't get the point of demanding an apology for features that were never implemented in a single retail console anybody purchased. They shared what they had in mind, we let them know it wouldn't fly, so they changed it before launch. The only thing they really stuck to was Kinect, and as we all know the market told them all they needed to hear about that decision. Either buy the thing or don't, but waiting for a big sloppy apology blowjob seems kind of dumb.
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I think the issue is that it never should have gotten to the point where we "let them know it wouldn't fly". They sold us a particular vision, told us there was no going back on this vision and that it was important that it be this way, heard the backlash for this "vision" and defended it until they saw they were getting asshammered by Sony in preorders.

Then the "vision" that was so important and could not be compromised was thrown out the window. Heck it put Major Nelson into the odd spot of having to be downright rude regarding the DRM (you can't just flip a switch, how would you know are you on the dev team?) to having to backtrack.

The issue is their vision was readily alterable in the first place, when they lied and claimed it wasn't.
 
Uncle Rupee said:
Microsoft was never the software leader. Halo is big (we'll see how big later this year, based on how the Xbone does once the Halo collection is out) but other than that they have what... Gears? And I don't think Epic is even making the new one.
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I was under the impression that all or most multiplats sold better on 360. Was I mistaken?
 
Fehyd said:
I think the issue is that it never should have gotten to the point where we "let them know it wouldn't fly". They sold us a particular vision, told us there was no going back on this vision and that it was important that it be this way, heard the backlash for this "vision" and defended it until they saw they were getting asshammered by Sony in preorders.

Then the "vision" that was so important and could not be compromised was thrown out the window. Heck it put Major Nelson into the odd spot of having to be downright rude regarding the DRM (you can't just flip a switch, how would you know are you on the dev team?) to having to backtrack.

The issue is their vision was readily alterable in the first place, when they lied and claimed it wasn't.
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Microsoft got to the point where they had the PR-but-not-PR puppet spouting out complete and nonsensical lies on this forum.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80168873&postcount=708
People DO understand that Microsoft has some of the smartest graphics programmers IN THE WORLD. We CREATED DirectX
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It wasn't even the lying, but the guy was living in a different reality, like so much of Redmond.
 
plagiarize said:
Remember when Sony came out and outright apologized for all the PS3 outages caused by the hacking scandal? Remember the goodwill that gave them?

MS seem to subscribe to the 'never apologize, never admit weakness' school of thought, and their fans like to say 'what else are they supposed to do? admit that their console sucks?' like that's the only other option.

That's the part that has Jim and people like myself pissed off. You don't have to say 'our console sucks' when asked about the power gap, but you shouldn't say 'well if you squint and move your sofa back there isn't a power gap'. You say shit like 'We think we've made a really good system that can power great exclusive games like Forza Horizon 2 and Halo MC Collection. If you think we aren't powerful enough, just look at those games. We're also making sure to get exclusive content for multiplatform games like Call of Duty to make sure the Xbox One is the best place to play the biggest games.'

There. You see. No lying. No insulting people that care about things like framerate and resolution.

No Albert Panello bullshit about how the system isn't a third weaker because they invented Direct X.

Don't tell me you haven't got any choice but to do the anti consumer crap that you're doing, to then turn around and say 'Actually we're going to not do that anymore. Aren't we brilliant?'.

No. Apologize. Make me feel like you aren't going to try and pull any anti consumer bullshit you think you can get away with.

Sony apologized, and have been much more pro consumer. It hasn't hurt their bottom line at all, so there absolutely IS a choice for MS's PR people to be more upfront and honest and it would likely bring them consumer goodwill, which would be a very good thing for them right now.

Their inability to apologize is preventing that, so it's hard to have any pity for them.
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For truth.

Are people forgetting the straight up LIES MS was putting out via Major Nelson and other PR channels saying Kinect was Necessary and how the system could not function without it? Shit like that leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouths.

Others don't give a fuck about the politics and just wanna play gamez. That's cool too. Me personally I work hard for what little money I make and if I'm investing a few hundred bucks for a console, the customer service and PR history of that company is gonna effect my purchasing decision.
 
akidnamededdy said:
I don't get the point of demanding an apology for features that were never implemented in a single retail console anybody purchased. They shared what they had in mind, we let them know it wouldn't fly, so they changed it before launch. The only thing they really stuck to was Kinect, and as we all know the market told them all they needed to hear about that decision. Either buy the thing or don't, but waiting for a big sloppy apology blowjob seems kind of dumb.
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That's for everyone to decide for themselves. Personally, after a company whose products I've bought and appreciated for almost 10 years tells me to go fuck myself (which is more or less exactly what Microsoft did here), I'm going to want an apology. If not I'm not buying their system. I'm not crying about it, certainly there are plenty of other systems for me to spend my time (and money) on.
 
One general observation...

It is possible to believe in the general vision itself (playing games without a disc, transferring and reselling digital licenses, easily sharing licenses, buying digital games from more than one retailer, everyone using Kinect voice and gestures to access media, etc.) without still believing in the specific methods used to accomplish that (24hr check-ins, having all retail discs fall under this system, not having an optional Kinect, not having enough gamer focused messaging, etc.)

That's essentially why the company line is now "we still like those ideas, but we should have 'had a dialogue' and 'been more direct and honest'. Also, games games games" (which is what most quotes from Spencer, Nelson, Mehdi, etc. say nowadays). That's their apology. And their other statements and actions are a more concrete version of that (they've made Kinect an optional add-on, never implemented the DRM plans, but they've still been improving Kinect and TV features, Kinect games are still coming out, made other Xbox Live policy changes, and have talked about revisiting some of those digital features, while still being more focused on games in their PR). I think it would be pretty silly of them to completely throw the baby out with the bathwater anyway. I don't want them to completely abandon every single aspect of what they proposed, and pretend like it was all complete shit and 100% wrong. Their original plans had obvious flaws, and people's criticism of those flaws are obviously valid, but that's not the same thing as saying everything about it was completely wrong and should never be mentioned ever again.

Now, obviously, the evaluation of whether that's a "good enough" apology, or whether the actual changes to the product count as a "good enough" apology is subjective and is gonna vary from person to person, so I'm obviously not gonna convince everyone that MS is so awesome and great, nor am I trying to. Nor do I necessarily think they need to be "praised" in any kind of extreme fashion (though I don't think any company needs to be praised in any kind of extreme fashion, but that's a much larger discussion)

But I think it does help to have a better understanding of what was actually proposed and the actual product that's been offered.
 
It's pretty interesting how little from the XB1 and PS4 reveals are available today.
No need to go over the Microsoft issues but on the PS4 side there's no suspend/resume or the feature where you could help friends in the games they're stuck on, nobody has even mentioned the later for a long time.
Don't get me wrong I think it's reliant on cloud/gaikai things I don't pretend to understand so it's not lying or failing.

Then on the game side of things a fair few of the titles in the unveiling were pushed back, some will turn up later this year and a the rest have vague 2015 dates with barely any concrete updates since those original presentations.

The fact it's all taking so long makes me wonder how XB1's always online infrastructure would ever have been ready on time, the "approved retailers" side of things alone would have took quite a while to get set-up.
 
Duster said:
on the PS4 side there's no suspend/resume or the feature where you could help friends in the games they're stuck on, nobody has even mentioned the later for a long time.
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It's already in, I thought? The affecting other people's game thing, that is, but it's only in, like, 2 or 3 games, as it's not some mandatory feature Sony forces every developer to add into a game, but something that PS4 has support for that needs to be utilized by developers (which many aren't doing).
 
Famassu said:
It's already in, I thought? The affecting other people's game thing, that is, but it's only in, like, 2 or 3 games, as it's not some mandatory feature Sony forces every developer to add into a game, but something that PS4 has support for that needs to be utilized by developers (which many aren't doing).
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Oh really? Guess I'm wrong then.
I'm surprised I haven't heard more about either of them, don't suppose you know what those 2 or 3 games are do you as I'd like to see how it's working.
 
Duster said:
Oh really? Guess I'm wrong then.
I'm surprised I haven't heard more about either of them, don't suppose you know what those 2 or 3 games are do you as I'd like to see how it's working.
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I think Tomb Raider might have something? And maybe Dynasty Warriors? I don't have either game so I can't confirm or don't know what you can do with it, but I think in those you can help a friend a little bit with some power-ups or ammo or something.
 
I want to go on record as a PS3/4 owner. I still have an original XBox, and did have a 360 until I traded it in for a PS3 back in '07. Just don't want the following to come across as the excuses of a fanboy ;)

Two general observation.

If you ignore PS4 sales figure entirely. MS have shipped around 5m XBox Ones since November last year, with sales probably somewhere around the 4m mark by now. I'm not sure but I don't think that constitutes a failure? Closure to one of the most successful console launches ever. Similar sales to Wii-U that's been on the market for a whole year longer. Sure it's running second to PS4 by some margin, but at this point in the life cycle I wouldn't write the One off as a failed console.

Secondly, Didn't MS get a new CEO back in February. Seems he has very different ideas on the running of the company compared to Balmer. In fact, it looks to me as if he is trying to refocus the company on it's core business. MS's problem of late is that they have tried to be anything but MS, trying to compete with Google and Apple in markets they'd only ever be a third rate player in. I'm not surprised Kinect was dropped and the TV production cancelled. It seems very much in keeping with what appears to be Satya Nadella's back to basics approach. Hell, even Windows 8 as got it's Start Menu back.

I'm not trying to defend MS or suggest they are not dicks. Just suggesting that recent XBox One events can't be viewed in isolation to what's going on with the rest of the company. And if you look at previous console launches, XBox One is actually doing very well.

Now, I feel as if I've just defended the devil. If you excuse me I need to go take a bath.
 
I think he's on the ball for the most part. It was sold as one thing, with a lot of lies and misinformation in between. And then all the u-turns in the name of choice and freedom when clearly no such rhetoric was intended initially but that is the best way to spin things.

The sad part is that that can be enough for detractors of the machine to hop right back on board. Of course everyone will have their own reasoning for such a move so it isn't so clear cut.

The worst part I recall was the move away from DRM and always online, with the vaguest of mentions towards how the system would actually work. Then, when forced to turn away from that path, they clarify how it would work and exactly how wonderful their plans for family sharing were but of course that nothing of that would be implemented due to the fault of the people that didn't like it. I simply do not believe that they intended to do what was mentioned after the fact simply because if they really wanted to prevent the u-turn, they could have talked and clarified the situation before then. You can make up any old story about how amazing a service is, if you know you won't be bringing it out anyway. The evidence of the announcement of family sharing, lack of clarification, cancellation and then clarification just serves to prove the point.

Anyway. I always choose to force a company to prove it can be both honest, trustworthy and reliable following such ludicrous events. However, I also factor in the events of GFWL into that and simply can't put any faith in their services for many years to come.

However each to their own I suppose, but I think Jim did a good thing reiterating what happened and calling attention to it.
 
Vast. said:
So now Microsoft listening to customers and market quos and doubling down on the things that gamers insisted were more important...is a BAD thing?

The guy who made a 100 videos shitting on every one of Microsoft's plans is now shitting on them for shifting priorities to what he wanted? Yeah, whatever.

One useful thing about this thread will be a good ignore list harvest.
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Seems childish just to use this thread just to ignore people that don't agree to your values. I hope you enjoy your echo chamber.
 
Why does he wear a trenchcoat and gloves when he does this? Like is it a character he's putting on?

Is he trying to be le classy?
 
Thankfully I never tuned into this YouTube personality culture, so what any individual has to say about a device is meaningless to me.
 
RedNumberFive said:
They're not going to apologize because in their mind they did nothing wrong. Remember that we're the ones who didn't buy into their horrible future vision. Really, the apology should be from us.
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Completely 180ing on every terrible policy/feature/etc. is the biggest apology they could have given. It's easy to fire off a press release and beg forgiveness versus spending a year and a half restructuring your product/brand into something that people actually want.
 
ZeroGravity said:
Not shockingly, there are people here missing the point.

Yes, Microsoft (finally) started to do the right things with their console, but only after it became clear that each and every thing they did wrong was causing the console to completely tank. It wasn't out of the goodness of their heart, or because they believe that's how a console should be handled. In fact, they quietly seem to feel the opposite; that their original vision is still the best and that consumers either didn't understand it or didn't appreciate it. We (the consumers) are the bad guys here in their eyes.

The fact that they don't seem to have any genuine remorse or understanding of their own wrong-doings when it comes to the Xbox One means they're all the more likely to commit similar mistakes in the future.
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As an Xbox owner who is glad to see the changes but still distrusts them mightily I would say this post pretty much sums it up.
 
I had to stop that video 40 seconds in...

- Where is he wearing leather gloves?
- What is the deal with the podium?
- What is with the backdrop?

I can't take this video seriously. Is it satire?
 
Dr. Black Jack said:
Completely 180ing on every terrible policy/feature/etc. is the biggest apology they could have given. It's easy to fire off a press release and beg forgiveness versus spending a year and a half restructuring your product/brand into something that people actually want.
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This is the thesis in the video that I can't get behind. The reasoning behind bundling the Kinect was premised largely on dishonesty, and the Xbox One is and always will be failure when framed in terms of the original vision. However, I don't agree with Jim's assertion that Microsoft's actions amount to "passive admittance without an apology" and thus serve to discredit the reversals. Actions are what tangibly benefit the consumer, so I don't have an issue with Microsoft's reversals, at least not in this specific context.
 
RandyBobandy said:
I had to stop that video 40 seconds in...

- Where is he wearing leather gloves?
- What is the deal with the podium?
- What is with the backdrop?

I can't take this video seriously. Is it satire?
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It's his thing. Don't worry, there will be footage while he's making his points, you won't have to deal with it.
 
Dr. Black Jack said:
Completely 180ing on every terrible policy/feature/etc. is the biggest apology they could have given. It's easy to fire off a press release and beg forgiveness versus spending a year and a half restructuring your product/brand into something that people actually want.
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That's not apologising, that's adapting to the general public rejecting your product in favour of your nearest rival en mass. Nobody at Microsoft has admitted that the original vision for the Xbone was anything less than perfect, and a bunch of people, Jim Sterling included, are slightly insulted by Microsoft's dismissive attitude until money made it clear that change was required. The U turns aren't apologies, they're business necessities.
 
eh they can get out of that tweet by saying all those games have content exclusive to Xbox brand at the very least

at least i think that applies to all of them
 
I think Jim is being a bit overly critical here. Each time it became clear that consumers were rejecting their vision and design Microsoft changed course, and they did so rather quickly. That should account for something in my mind.

The deceptive messaging regarding the Kinect was unfortunate, and Microsoft missed an opportunity* to garner good will by rewarding early adopters there with some kind of reward when they released the new SKU.


* - to my knowledge MS has done nothing for early adopters
 
Amir0x said:
eh they can get out of that tweet by saying all those games have content exclusive to Xbox brand at the very least

at least i think that applies to all of them
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AC Unity doesn't have exclusive content that I know of. Neither does COD other than it being a month delay on PlayStation platforms.
 
I posted earlier in this thread that it's all rather simple. Don't try to gimmick us and don't try to trick us into buying your product. That tweet saddens me and just reeks of desperation and sneakiness....

Whatever happen to... you know just making an awesome product that people want to buy? Crazy I know.
 
Vast. said:
So now Microsoft listening to customers and market quos and doubling down on the things that gamers insisted were more important...is a BAD thing?

The guy who made a 100 videos shitting on every one of Microsoft's plans is now shitting on them for shifting priorities to what he wanted? Yeah, whatever.

One useful thing about this thread will be a good ignore list harvest.
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Albert Panello alt account?

Amir0x said:
in Microsoft logic yes

work with me here guys i'm trying to be diplomatic
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Fuck diplomacy.
 
knirk said:
It's quite scary how such a big company as Microsoft misread the market and what the consumer wanted so much.
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Well, we can't be sure that's all in the past. They keep insisting it was an information issue and they didn't tell us clearly how it was meant to be awesome. They think if they explained it better, we'd eat it up, without them having made changes.
 
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