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2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]

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marrec said:
Totally agree with everything said here.

Except for the left out implication that Israels treatment of Gaza is justification for Hamas lobbing missiles (however ineffective) into Israel. We rightly should be talking about the gross injustice of the mass murder of civilians and at the same time we should recognize that in such oppressor/oppressed states before we've had non-violent uprisings time and time again that have proven to be more peaceful for the oppressed population. Hamas start from a position of violence and then are pushed from there. Throwing ineffectual missiles at your oppressor in order to goad them into killing your brothers is, at best, a very stupid idea.
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Palestinian protests will not do a single thing because the Israeli government operates with impunity. It will only allow for religious zealots in government to illegally build land on Palestinian territory. The only thing that will work is if the US stops hindering the UN and allows the UN and the world as a collective, to make decisions regarding this issue.

Only the US can stop this. But bribery of politicians is a big thing.
 
Hindle said:
If you bring Israel to justice over their actions, then surely Britain, the US, need to be brought to justice for the Iraq war. Russia just annexed Crimea, they need to be brought to justice as well.

It's just case of who's going to hand out the punishments?
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Wasn't that the result of a referendum voted by the people of Crimea? It looks like you're a little brainwashed with MSM.

The West describes the HAMAS as a terrorist organization but for a lot of people they're the resistance. Just like French during WWII. How is it different? And don't bring the 'Human Shield' bullshit?
 
Roronoa95 said:
It's always the same rhetoric:
Civilians are killed => But look at Hamas attacks with rockets.
Extremist Israeli supports Apartheid and colonization => But look at Hamas, it's a terrorist group.
Israel is illegally colonizing Palestine => None.
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Its the reason I lurk in these threads, pro-Israel mental gymnastics are quite something.
 
-Plasma Reus- said:
Palestinian protests will not do a single thing because the Israeli government operates with impunity. It will only allow for religious zealots in government to illegally build land on Palestinian territory. The only thing that will work is if the US stops hindering the UN and allows the UN and the world as a collective, to make decisions regarding this issue.

Only the US can stop this. But bribery of politicians is a big thing.
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Why would the US weaken one of its strongest ally relationship, when Russia/China refuse to budge on so many issues (at the Security Council)?
 
B4D1E said:
Wasn't that the result of a referendum voted by the people of Crimea? It looks like you're a little brainwashed with MSM.

The West describes the HAMAS as a terrorist organization but for a lot of people they're the resistance. Just like French during WWII. How is it different? And don't bring the 'Human Shield' bullshit?
Click to expand...

Russia's actions where Ukraine is concerned are disgusting. My point is if we are to judge Israel, then we need to bring justice to any country that's gotten away with something.
 
ksharp said:
Why would the US weaken one of its strongest ally relationship, when Russia/China refuse to budge on so many issues (at the Security Council)?
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Aside from the fact that you seem to be perfectly happy with the US supporting religious extremists; one of the strongest allies?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...even-terrifying-levels-of-spying-9341264.html
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...uit-terrorists-to-fight-against-iran-1.407224
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/13/false_flag

Israeli government actions are doing nothing but creating problems for US international diplomacy and endangering the lives of US citizens.

What an ally.
 
-Plasma Reus- said:
Aside from the fact that you seem to be perfectly happy with the US supporting religious extremists; one of the strongest allies?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...even-terrifying-levels-of-spying-9341264.html
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...uit-terrorists-to-fight-against-iran-1.407224
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/13/false_flag

What an ally.
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Really? That's all you got? Every country is motivated to look after its self-interests; and given Israel's particular situation (fighting for survival, as noted in one of the articles you linked, actually).
 
ksharp said:
Really? That's all you got? Every country is motivated to look after its self-interests; and given Israel's particular situation (fighting for survival, as noted in one of the articles you linked, actually).
Click to expand...

You are okay with the US supporting religious extremists at the expense of innocent lives as the whole world looks on.
That's all I've got.
 
So I was expecting the tunnels to look like something dug with hand tools maybe some wood supports or something. They are on a cartel level of construction. Concrete walls,lighting. That has to amount to a large amount of time and people to dig some of these. Its almost impressive.

So ceasefire or no now? Calling it now that if this next ceasefire doesn't work, then the IDF is going to retake Gaza.
 
B4D1E said:
Wasn't that the result of a referendum voted by the people of Crimea? It looks like you're a little brainwashed with MSM.
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It was very much a sham referendum. The Crimean people might very well have been in favor of joining Russia (recent opinion polls from before the mess started suggests otherwise so it's not a foregone conclusion) but the referendum itself tells you nothing. In fact, if anything the referendum suggests the opposite. Holding the referendum so early, almost completely silencing out any media opposition voices and having the entire peninsula under Russian military occupation suggests to me that Russia was afraid that the results would not be in its favor. At the very least though the results are completely unreliable and therefore piss-poor justification for Russia's illegal annexation.
 
Um that video of the people being guided by what looks like to be humanitarian aid to get them out of a combat zone is disturbing. An Israeli sniper shoots a man and as he lies on the ground still tries to take more shots at him, while the workers are unable to get to him because the sniper would shoot them too. This is the same shit that Syria did to the rebels. So fucked up, what the fucking fuck

There are no good guys here, just innocent civilians caught in the crossfire
 
Dopus said:
What most people are saying is that Hamas are the resulting consequence of Israeli policy and the way that they've dealt with Palestine. Call it support if you want, but it's not. From settlement buildings, land stealing, demolition of housing, stealing of farm land to the arrest (kidnapping) of hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinians without charge. Added to this is how Israel is not even willing to engage in talks with Hamas, nor is it supportive of a unity government with Fatah and Hamas, nor is it supportive of Abbas and what he is trying to do. Any moderate is pushed to the side, consider the West Bank as just one of countless examples.

Israel time and time again have proven that they're not interested in resolving this situation until they've effectively ethnically cleansed the land. That's not hyperbole either. Breaking of truces, breaking of ceasefires. 2012 as the last example, the promise of Israel easing the pressure on Gaza didn't happen. Barley any of the conditions were met by Israel, yet people have the nerve to suggest that they are within their rights to act in this manner and 'defend' themselves. Hamas have put forward a reasonable list for a truce, and all you hear from the Israelis is nothing but more carnage upon a civilian population. Sure, there are terrorists mixed amongst them, but that is NOT justification for the levelling of entire buildings full of men, women and children.
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Again 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab and most are Muslims. They are represented in government and every other facet of life.

How many Jews in Hamas, would you guess. Just round it off.

HAMAS is a terrorist organization, forget breaking truces and cease fires which they do regularly, as much or more than Israel, they employ suicide bombers. Openly call for the destruction of Israel and were founded on that very principle. They spend money on bombs rather than it's people. They do nothing but attack, forcing Israel to defend itself with walls and missile shields. Now they've built tunnels and filled it with munitions. And the Gazan people do nothing but suffer for HAMASs actions, while the people that claim to care about their plight complain about the one democratic, progressive, inclusive, modern state in the region.

The people of Gaza have shitty leaders. As much as you can blame Israel for what they do, the fact remains it's been the Palestinian leadership and the surrounding nations that support them, that has been the bulk of the problem. If the situations were reversed, Israel would have been "ethnically cleansed" a long time ago.
 
Opto said:
The issue I have with Vire is his insistence that Hamas and the IDF are on equal footing sans the Iron Dome. When that's a foolish statement.
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The Guardian sums it up nicely.
Guardian editorial said:
In all the years they have been swooping over the border like useless fireworks, the primitive rockets that Hamas fires at Israel have killed hardly anybody. They scare people, close supermarkets, disrupt business and increase insurance premiums. Of course it is hard to live under even a remote threat, and the damage done to young children especially should not be underestimated. But this is not the blitz, or anything like it.
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If Hamas were still sending suicide bombers into Israel to blow up civilians in the street, then we could talk about Israel imperiled and under siege
 
ksharp said:
Really? That's all you got? Every country is motivated to look after its self-interests; and given Israel's particular situation (fighting for survival, as noted in one of the articles you linked, actually).
Click to expand...

Um, how about the mass selling of cutting-edge US military equipment to the Chinese?
 
carfo said:
Um that video of the people being guided by what looks like to be humanitarian aid to get them out of a combat zone is disturbing. An Israeli sniper shoots a man and as he lies on the ground still tries to take more shots at him, while the workers are unable to get to him because the sniper would shoot them too. This is the same shit that Syria did to the rebels. So fucked up, what the fucking fuck

There are no good guys here, just innocent civilians caught in the crossfire
Click to expand...

Exactly this.
 
Jackpot said:
Um, how about the mass selling of cutting-edge US military equipment to the Chinese?
Click to expand...

How about the US spying on every single nation/diplomat on Earth, as leaked by Snowden?

I don't get your point, here. Even allies are motivated to look out for their self-interests even if it goes against said alliance. In the case of Israel, breaking out of US dependence. In the case of the USA, its own strategic objectives around the globe and security monitoring.
 
carfo said:
Um that video of the people being guided by what looks like to be humanitarian aid to get them out of a combat zone is disturbing. An Israeli sniper shoots a man and as he lies on the ground still tries to take more shots at him, while the workers are unable to get to him because the sniper would shoot them too. This is the same shit that Syria did to the rebels. So fucked up, what the fucking fuck

There are no good guys here, just innocent civilians caught in the crossfire
Click to expand...

Allegedly that happened during an announced ceasefire. The aid workers were trying to find and help the wounded. The guy that was killed joined them to look for his family. Just awful shit.
 
ksharp said:
How about the US spying on every single nation/diplomat on Earth, as unearthed by Snowden?
Click to expand...

Your issue was:

Why would the US weaken one of its strongest ally relationship, when Russia/China refuse to budge on so many issues (at the Security Council)?
Click to expand...

to which you dismissed someone else's responses demonstrating why they aren't that good as allies as nothing out of the ordinary. The selling of their latest military hardware to one of their stronget geo-political rivals is major, even for the US. It was a diplomatic uproar. They imposed sanctions.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/13/usa.israel
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/13/world/israel-sells-arms-to-china-us-says.html
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/selling-arms-to-china-or-not-1.144834
http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FL21Ak01.html

You can either accept the reports or carry on pretending that that's business as usual and confirm your ignorance on such matters.
 
mid83 said:
With all that said, all of my reading and research in the last week has definitely changed my view. Now, I still believe Israel has a right to exist and should be able to defend themselves, but the way they are going about it is pretty disgusting to be honest.
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I think there's an inaccuracy in your understanding. Israel are in control and illegally occupy Palestinian territory. It is Hamas that are defending themselves(even if some of what they are doing is illegal). By definition Israel's military actions are all acts of aggression since they are reinforcing the original act of aggression(occupation)

Vire said:
I can assure you I am not. I haven't wavered once on my position. I did not excuse the atrocities committed by Israeli government. The use of white phosphorus is downright deplorable. My central point was that the Hamas are no better in this equation and have no moral high ground since both parties are intent on killing innocent civilians.
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So would you say that Israel, Hamas, Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, Fomer Yugoslavia etc were all no better than each other since they were all intent on killing innocent civilians?
 
ksharp said:
Why would the US weaken one of its strongest ally relationship, when Russia/China refuse to budge on so many issues (at the Security Council)?
Click to expand...

Lol, strongest ally realtionship.

Israel is about as useful to the US as forming a business partnership with a three year old would be for one of us.
 
Jackpot said:
Your issue was:



to which you dismissed someone else's responses demonstrating why they aren't that good as allies as nothing out of the ordinary. The selling of their latest military hardware to one of their stronget geo-political rivals is major, even for the US. It was a diplomatic uproar. They imposed sanctions.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/13/usa.israel
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/13/world/israel-sells-arms-to-china-us-says.html
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/selling-arms-to-china-or-not-1.144834
http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FL21Ak01.html

You can either accept the reports or carry on pretending that that's business as usual and confirm your ignorance on such matters.
Click to expand...

That happened 10 years ago. People moved on. Definitely not as big a deal as the US cables leak or the Snowden scandal.

Again, Israel is of strategic importance to the USA, (potentially) much more than the other way around.
 
BrokenEchelon said:
Lol, strongest ally realtionship.

Israel is about as useful to the US as forming a business partnership with a three year old would be for one of us.
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Erm, you do realise that Israel is one of the biggest developers of new technology in the world, right? They have more tech start ups than any country other than the US. The Kinect is based on technology created by an Israeli company. They're also world leaders in developing new agriculture and irrigation technology.

Israel is a pretty damn important ally just for their technology alone.
 
theignoramus said:
The Guardian sums it up nicely.

If Hamas were still sending suicide bombers into Israel to blow up civilians in the street, then we could talk about Israel imperiled and under siege
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I'm sure the author of that has bombs going off in his or her neighborhood where his loved ones and children live. I mean, cant the Israelis put up with a thousand rockets going off randomly in their towns? What's the big deal? Why would they feel the need to stop that?

But yes, at least they're still not sending suicide bombers. I guess that's them being moderate. Or more likely the wall Israel had to build is working so they now have moved on to rockets and tunnels.
 
TitusGroan said:
Erm, you do realise that Israel is one of the biggest developers of new technology in the world, right? They have more tech start ups than any country other than the US. The Kinect is based on technology created by an Israeli company. They're also world leaders in developing new agriculture and irrigation technology.

Israel is a pretty damn important ally just for their technology alone.
Click to expand...

Also the best intelligence source in that part of the world from North Africa to Iran.
 
Dash27 said:
Again 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab and most are Muslims. They are represented in government and every other facet of life.

How many Jews in Hamas, would you guess. Just round it off.

HAMAS is a terrorist organization, forget breaking truces and cease fires which they do regularly, as much or more than Israel, they employ suicide bombers. Openly call for the destruction of Israel and were founded on that very principle. They spend money on bombs rather than it's people. They do nothing but attack, forcing Israel to defend itself with walls and missile shields. Now they've built tunnels and filled it with munitions. And the Gazan people do nothing but suffer for HAMASs actions, while the people that claim to care about their plight complain about the one democratic, progressive, inclusive, modern state in the region.

The people of Gaza have shitty leaders. As much as you can blame Israel for what they do, the fact remains it's been the Palestinian leadership and the surrounding nations that support them, that has been the bulk of the problem. If the situations were reversed, Israel would have been "ethnically cleansed" a long time ago.
Click to expand...
This is lazy thinking that assumes that people's stances in this conflict are innate and not influenced by their environments. If Israelis lived in the conditions that Palestinians in the Gaza Strip live in would there still be people on the streets protesting their own government's actions, or would the political landscape be so different as to make Netanyahu look like a hippy? If the people of Gaza had living standards equal to those of the average Israeli, would Hamas still win any elections?
 
Vire said:
No that's not what I'm saying. I have no problem with the Washington Post making that info graphic. It is 100% accurate.

I do have a problem however with the poster who was posting it with intentions of tilting the perception that only Israel is targeting innocent civilians when that isn't the case. And I agree, these discussions are pointless.

The point of the info graphic wasn't to be made to be used as propaganda.
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I asked you about what you think my intention with the post was, yet you ignored my post. Will you stop spreading misinformation about why i was posting that image, it's really anoying.
 
A german family with seven members was killed in Gaza. The father, Ibrahim al-Kilani studied in Siegen and was an engineer. Him, his wife and five children were killed by an airstrike. There are currently more germans in Gaza, 33 were already saved by the UN, but Israel isn't leaving enough time to extract everyone who wants to be extracted. And even being german citizens, people can't go through Egypt or Israel. The only way out is Jordan.

sources: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...bei-israel-luftangriff-getoetet-a-982238.html
http://www.taz.de/Gaza-Israel-Konflikt/!142863/
 
BtJyQE4CYAAzebT.jpg

Anonymous Palestine ‏@PalAnonymous 15m
This is not a synthetic image .. and not a copy of the film .. this Gaza #Gaza pic.twitter.com/NVcWMi7vji via @ShoukriEmad
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Bild online (comparable to The Sun)

LoghTGF.png

"Who stops this antisemitism?" (article in context of today's protest in Berlin)

They also state that the protest isn't related to the conflict and the protesters just hate jews...
 
Flips360 said:
Bild online (comparable to The Sun)

LoghTGF.png

"Who stops this antisemitism?" (article in context of today's protest in Berlin)

They also state that the protest isn't related to the conflict and the protesters just hate jews...
Click to expand...
Yeah, the german media are big on the anti-semitism.
Well, there is certainly some and in Berlin a jewish family almost were attacked while walking out with their baby. But yeah, most of them just ignore Israels crimes. taz is the only one I trust a bit, I even take SPON with a grain of salt.
 
I'd love to get rid of the IDF, Israeli government and Hamas (or just isolate them on a secluded island) and see how peace can arise from the people just working things out among each other without fear of a missile or soldier being a dumbass.
 
Dash27 said:
If the situations were reversed, Israel would have been "ethnically cleansed" a long time ago.
Click to expand...

These hypotheticals are increasingly stupid, galling and offensive when the side supposedly defending itself from would be genocidaires is the one responsible for the ethnic cleansing and wholesale destruction. If Hamas could it would,etc, etc. But Hamas doesnt and it cant,therefore there is only one side illegally displacing people from their homes and levelling whole neighbourhoods and your attempts to deflect attention from that reality are absurd.
 
25d764fcfe7608dbdbe78d053a38c961.png


The shots caused panic among the civilians living in the same building but no casualties have been reported in the incident on Tuesday morning.

"Two very precise shots were fired straight into our building", Al Jazeera’s Stefanie Dekker, reporting from the bureau in Gaza said.

"We are high up in the building so we had a very strong vantage point over the area. But we have evacuated."

The bureau is situated in a residential area of Gaza City.

"Our office building also has many residential apartments. People [are] leaving, panicked. The AP [news agency] also has office there and [has] evacuated."

'Incitement' accusations

The attack came a day after Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman was quoted by local media as saying his country will work to close down Al Jazeera in Israel.

Al Jazeera "has abandoned even the perception of being a reliable news organisation and broadcasts from Gaza and to the world anti-Israel incitement, lies, and encouragement to the terrorists," Lieberman said.

Al Jazeera has been covering the Israeli offensive on the Gaza Strip that started on July 8.

The network considers Lierberman's comments a very serious matter. Israel is accountable for the safety of Al Jazeera teams working in Israel and the Palestinian territories
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http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
 
-Plasma Reus- said:
Aside from the fact that you seem to be perfectly happy with the US supporting religious extremists; one of the strongest allies?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...even-terrifying-levels-of-spying-9341264.html
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...uit-terrorists-to-fight-against-iran-1.407224
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/13/false_flag

Israeli government actions are doing nothing but creating problems for US international diplomacy and endangering the lives of US citizens.

What an ally.
Click to expand...

it baffles me how no other country has been caught spying on the US more than isreal yet it is still the US 'biggest' ally and still receives billions of dollars. Isreal has spied more on the US than the soviet union ever has during the cold war.
 
funkypie said:
it baffles me how no other country has been caught spying on the US more than isreal yet it is still the US 'biggest' ally and still receives billions of dollars. Isreal has spied more on the US than the soviet union ever has during the cold war.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but actually doing anything about it is antisemitic, you see.
 
The Israeli ambassador to the US has said the IDF deserve the Nobel Peace Prize for "showing unimaginable restraint" ...

... you can't be serious.
 
Vire said:
If you want to support an organization that deems Osama Bin Laden a "holy warrior", by all means go right ahead.

You just won't find me standing behind you in your cause.
Click to expand...
No, you'd rather stand behind an organisation that bombs hospitals and killed over 200 children over the past 15 days
 
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