Support NeoGAF

[docbon]

Israel drops white phosphorus bombs on Gazans

welp

brace yourselves for images of people melted by chemical burns, on twitter.

is this even legit though?

 

[Cromat]

Did any news items that support the Israeli version of events get posted here or are people still enjoying their echo chamber?

 

[marrec]

Did any news items that support the Israeli version of events get posted here or are people still enjoying their echo chamber?

Anyone is free to post anything. People will enjoy their echo chamber regardless, however.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Israel drops white phosphorus bombs on Gazans

Press TV may not be the most reputable source. People should wait for others.

 

[Cagey]

Did any news items that support the Israeli version of events get posted here or are people still enjoying their echo chamber?

You have a poster saying Israel's endgame is a complete ethnic cleansing and annexation of territory and it's gone largely unchallenged, what do you think?

 

[Dude Abides]

I certainly won't argue that there are Israelis, some in government, that would like the eventual annexation of the West Bank.

But that's a bit more nuanced than Razgreez's comment that Israel is planning to just kill every non-Jew in the occupied territories until they have all the land.

And acknowledging that there are significant political forces seeking to colonize the majority of the West Bank, and which appear significantly stronger than those who might oppose them, is a bit more nuanced than saying "Israel doesn't want land, it wants peace, see how it pulled out of Gaza and the Sinai!"

Did any news items that support the Israeli version of events get posted here or are people still enjoying their echo chamber?

You're free to read the New York Times or the Washington Post for the Israeli perspective if you find the GAF hivemind so distasteful.

 

[maharg]

They are "leveling" Gaza because Hamas does not give them any choice. Had Palestinians elected Fatah again instead of Hamas, we wouldn't be there. Guaranteed.

Israel does not trust Hamas, and why should it? Hamas openly stands for the destruction of Israel.

And once again, we come to this. So did Fatah once.

Never mind this notion of democracy-so-long-as-we-like-your-choice-at-the-point-of-a-missile that's completely absurd.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

They are "leveling" Gaza because Hamas does not give them any choice. Had Palestinians elected Fatah again instead of Hamas, we wouldn't be there. Guaranteed.

Like in the West Bank where the IDF doesn't have military checkpoints, deny basic human rights, level property with due process, displace and kill Palestians. Surely capitulation like in the West Bank must be appealing, right?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The zionist state is intrinsically racist. If you read the founding litterature of the Zionist ideology and its goal of a Jewish state you will know that it is an ideology that puts Jews over other people.

This is most apparent in the fact that there is no mention of the native occupants of the different countries the Zionists wanted to take over. Absolutely none in either the internal debate or founding litterature of the Zionist community. (Der Judenstat being a great example of this.)

A historical myth was created that the possible countries was empty waiting for a homeless people to immigrate to them. A complete lie.

The biggest mistake the Zionists made was trying to carve their new nation out of territory already inhabited by people who had already been fighting over it for centuries before they arrived. Had they done the sensible thing and carved Israel out of territory in the defeated Nazi German state none of this would have happened. However the Zionists were greedy and sought the Holy Land and they probably would have had it uncontested had they followed the original UN resolution that divided British Palestine.

 

[sindbadthesailor]

Press TV may not be the most reputable source. People should wait for others.

Fair enough.

 

[Freezie KO]

The zionist state is intrinsically racist. If you read the founding litterature of the Zionist ideology and its goal of a Jewish state you will know that it is an ideology that puts Jews over other people.

This is most apparent in the fact that there is no mention of the native occupants of the different countries the Zionists wanted to take over. Absolutely none in either the internal debate or founding litterature of the Zionist community. (Der Judenstat being a great example of this.)

A historical myth was created that the possible countries was empty waiting for a homeless people to immigrate to them. A complete lie.

Regardless of what was written in the founding literature (written in the late 1800's), there's a Zionist state now, where minorities are treated a lot better than Arab nationalist states.

You're absolutely correct that there was never a completely barren land. Lots of fighting happened pre-1948, Palestinians were expelled from their homes, and Jews were expelled from all over the Middle East. While a huge secular, liberal democracy would be ideal, it's just not feasible.

To move forward, both nationalist movements have to be accepted - Zionism and a Palestinian state. The Palestinians can't just be forever refugees (although as far as I understand, they're the only people where the UN actually passes down refugee status to the children). If you expect a Palestinian state (and you should), it's time to accept Zionism and not see it as a dirty word.

--

And acknowledging that there are significant political forces seeking to colonize the majority of the West Bank, and which appear significantly stronger than those who might oppose them, is a bit more nuanced than saying "Israel doesn't want land, it wants peace, see how it pulled out of Gaza and the Sinai!"

I don't feel you're good at using quotation marks.

 

[Maninthemirror]

You guys really need to read this:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/ben-gurion-s-dark-side.premium-1.526699#!


It will completely change the way you think of :


1. Israel's independence
2. 1948 Arab War
3. The aftermath which exists today

This is especially for those who support IDF actions.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

You guys really need to read this:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/ben-gurion-s-dark-side.premium-1.526699#!


It will completely change the way you think of :


1. Israel's independence
2. 1948 Arab War
3. The aftermath which exists today

This is especially for those who support IDF actions.

Article is locked.

 

[GSG Flash]

PressTV......

Because Israel definitely does not have a history of using white phosphorous....

And I think if Israeli supporters are posting Memri articles, then PressTV should be fair game as well (both are just two sides of the same coin IMO).

 

[nib95]

You guys really need to read this:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/ben-gurion-s-dark-side.premium-1.526699#!


It will completely change the way you think of :


1. Israel's independence
2. 1948 Arab War
3. The aftermath which exists today

This is especially for those who support IDF actions.

Article is behind a paywall

 

[Trojita]

Did any news items that support the Israeli version of events get posted here or are people still enjoying their echo chamber?

You're welcome to post them if you don't see them there.

If the version of events doesn't correlate with sources from many other sources of news, then they will be open to questioning.

You have a poster saying Israel's endgame is a complete ethnic cleansing and annexation of territory and it's gone largely unchallenged, what do you think?

Because a poster or two equals everybody.

 

[NullPointer]

You have a poster saying Israel's endgame is a complete ethnic cleansing and annexation of territory and it's gone largely unchallenged, what do you think?

Challenge it then. What is Israel's end game?

 

[Dude Abides]

I don't feel you're good at using quotation marks.

I don't feel you're good at arguing.

 

[sindbadthesailor]

Because Israel definitely does not have a history of using white phosphorous....

And I think if Israeli supporters are posting Memri articles, then PressTV should be fair game as well (both are just two sides of the same coin IMO).

I honestly didn't realize presstv was Iranian. I'd much rather sources that are far too obviously biased be left out of any discussion.

 

[Cromat]

Because Israel definitely does not have a history of using white phosphorous....

And I think if Israeli supporters are posting Memri articles, then PressTV should be fair game as well (both are just two sides of the same coin IMO).

Maybe in whatever virtual reality you inhabit.

Also, please show me a MEMRI article posted in this thread which isn't accurate.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Article is behind a paywall

The time has come to move past the cult of personality surrounding Israel's greatest leader and evaluate his actions honestly.

Ben-Gurion's image has never been damaged. Even after the Nakba was revealed, even when the new historians exposed war crimes in 1948, even when we understood that not all the Arabs fled at the orders of their leaders, even when we learned we were not "a few against the many," even when the ruins of the villages peeked out from under the forests of the Jewish National Fund, even when the truth came out about the reprisal operations and even when we grew up and learned and understood that not everything they told us in our childhood was true

Historian Shay Hazkani published a worrying article in Haaretz Magazine on May 16, called "Catastrophic thinking: Did Ben-Gurion try to rewrite history?" about research that was meant to prove the Arabs fled in 1948. The article is about how Ben-Gurion enlisted academia for propaganda purposes. B.G. ordered the "research" from an academic institution seemingly to prove to the world that it never happened: All the Arabs ran away, no one was expelled.

The ground was burning under the feet of the statesman with his well-developed historical awareness, and he understood he needed to sell a propaganda lie. Historians have not yet determined whether Ben-Gurion ordered the research, by command or a wink, or even if he knew about it – but Hazkani's research proves he knew very well. There were Ramla, Lod and at least another 120 villages whose residents were forcibly expelled, the massacres and looting, mass expulsions on the level of ethnic cleansing in a number of regions, and maybe even a couple of cases of rape, and of course the prevention of those natives of the land who fled the terror of war from returning to their homes.
Quite a bit is still confidential in the archives, but no one can claim any longer that Ben-Gurion, who was involved in everything, did not order, did not know, or at least did not allow these things.

For example, in the reprisal attack on Kibiyeh in 1953, infiltrators threw a grenade at a family home in Yehud and a mother and two children were killed. The same day Ben-Gurion ordered the blowing up of 50 houses in Kibiyeh. The orders of Operation Shoshana stated clearly, "Blowing up homes and harming the residents and driving them form the village." The next order defined the goal as, "Attacking the village, its temporary occupation, destruction and maximal harm to people" (Benny Morris, "Israel's Border Wars 1949-1956"). The result: 45 houses blown up with their residents inside, 69 dead, mostly women and children. Was this not a war crime? True, Ariel Sharon made the orders more extreme, but the original decision to blow up 50 houses came out of a meeting with Ben-Gurion at his vacation site on the shores of Lake Kinneret. Has the time not come to remember him for this too, along with his great acts?

The Zochrot nonprofit organization recently published a new map with a list of the 678 Palestinian communities that Israel destroyed between the Nakba and 1967. How many of their residents were expelled and how many fled? The argument is not over. But above all this hangs the figure of Ben-Gurion, it can no longer be denied.

The 2 linked articles (one in the link also behind a paywall) mentions. Arabs lived in Israel with Jews. Most Arabs and Palestinians did not run on the order of the Arab countries but they were executed and expelled by Ben Gurion e.g. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/04/mass-graves-jaffa-israel-palestine-1948_n_3385011.html
When the Arabs and Palestinians suffered while Israeli forces were destroying arab homes, Arab armies attacked first and Israel won that war, it kept the land where the Arab homes were destroyed pre-dating the Arab army attack. What happened next is what you see today.

 

[Lowmelody]

Article is behind a paywall

Search the url in google and click on first result.

Works for most pay walled article I have seen.

 

[deathkiller]

Right. What I find odd is people that support a Palestinian state but oppose a Zionist state. If you're in favor of one nationalist movement, why is the other intrinsically immoral?

It's immoral to force people living somewhere to leave so your race/faction/religion have control over said land. That is why what European countries did during the colonial era is now illegal under international laws.

In the end even if I don't support how Israel was founded I don't oppose to it's existence so long that they limit themselves to the 67 borders. The majority of the Israelis prefer to have Gaza and the West Bank as part of Israel though.

 

[Toxi]

They are "leveling" Gaza because Hamas does not give them any choice. Had Palestinians elected Fatah again instead of Hamas, we wouldn't be there. Guaranteed.

Israel does not trust Hamas, and why should it? Hamas openly stands for the destruction of Israel.

You always have a choice. When you claim your only choice is killing 600 people, you are a coward.

 

[nib95]

Maybe in whatever virtual reality you inhabit.

Also, please show me a MEMRI article posted in this thread which isn't accurate.

There was a video posted earlier (in this thread or another, I can't remember anymore) of a Hamas representative saying people freely go to the rooftops of their house to stand up against Israeli aggression and bombs. That got mistranslated and misconstrued in to being evidence that Hamas intentionally and forcefully uses human shields. Martyrdom by the general public as a form of resistance is not the same as Hamas forcing people to be human shields.

 

[Crisco]

Arguing intent is such a waste of time when the actual actions themselves are indefensible. Israel is dropping thousands of 500-2000 pound bombs on a landmass smaller than the greater metropolitan area of most US cities with the highest population density in the world. Hamas are bad people, but so are inner city gangs and Mexican drug cartels. Those folks dump truck loads of decapitated bodies onto the middle of highways, traffic in child prostitution, and generally make Hamas look like Sesame Street terrorists. I bet the Mexican government wished all they did was fire some inaccurate rockets into the desert. Even still, you don't see Ciudad Juarez getting bombed into rubble by the feds. There is no justification for the sort of military operations Israel conducts in Gaza. It's indefensible by any international norms and standards, no matter the threat.

 

[Cagey]

Because a poster or two equals everybody.

You'll note where I said it's gone "largely unchallenged", which would be the more obvious reference to the thread at-large. The poster's absurd claim didn't even register to most, whereas any random post that contains a link to a biased Israeli news source is immediately seized upon and (rightfully) skewered for poor sourcing. Curious, really.

Challenge it then. What is Israel's end game?

So the burden is on the person responding to claims that the Israeli endgame is ethnic cleansing to refute such claims, rather than the person making that sort of outlandish statement? That's bizarre.

Endgame in general for the average person? Security and stability.

Endgame for the current regime running that country? Status quo, which serves as a justification for continued hardline stance; a rather depressing view of Israeli leadership.

 

[Zeeman]

The 2 linked articles (one in the link also behind a paywall) mentions. Arabs lived in Israel with Jews. Most Arabs and Palestinians did not run on the order of the Arab countries but they were executed and expelled by Ben Gurion e.g. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/04/mass-graves-jaffa-israel-palestine-1948_n_3385011.html
When the Arabs and Palestinians suffered while Israeli forces were destroying arab homes, Arab armies attacked first and Israel won that war, it kept the land where the Arab homes were destroyed pre-dating the Arab army attack. What happened next is what you see today.

That Huffington Post article is complete speculation.

And were people unaware that Jews and Arabs were fighting for territory before the declaration of the State of Israel? Are you unfamiliar with the conquest of Safed? This was all in April of 1948, just as an example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed#British_Mandate
http://www.safed.co.il/war-of-independence-in-tzfat.html

 

[Azih]

They are "leveling" Gaza because Hamas does not give them any choice. Had Palestinians elected Fatah again instead of Hamas, we wouldn't be there. Guaranteed.

So the West Bank elected Fatah. Is Israel not in the West Bank guaranteed? Oh wait they're expanding settlements there as we speak.

It doesn't matter what Palestinians do Israel maintains the occupation and expands settlements regardless. We can see this in the two territories and over time as well.

 

[falastini]

You guys really need to read this:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/ben-gurion-s-dark-side.premium-1.526699#!


It will completely change the way you think of :


1. Israel's independence
2. 1948 Arab War
3. The aftermath which exists today

This is especially for those who support IDF actions.

It's behind a paywall, but judging from the title I can guess what it's about. Since it's inception, and leading to the 67' war, Israel was looking to expand it's territory. Ben Gurion and his cronies wanted the whole thing. Israeli policies from 1948 to present help highlight this.

I recommend

written by an Israeli historian. It will give you an honest perspective in Israel's history. There is ample evidence that Israel wasn't the poor, peaceful nation just trying to defend itself.

 

[LNBL]

They are "leveling" Gaza because Hamas does not give them any choice. Had Palestinians elected Fatah again instead of Hamas, we wouldn't be there. Guaranteed.

Israel does not trust Hamas, and why should it? Hamas openly stands for the destruction of Israel.

You guarantee it, yet people are also being killed in the Westbank. How exactly does it change the situation for the palestinians?

 

[GYODX]

More rockets found in UNRWA schools.

 

[maharg]

So the West Bank elected Fatah. Is Israel not in the West Bank guaranteed? Oh wait they're expanding settlements there as we speak.

It doesn't matter what Palestinians do Israel maintains the occupation and expands settlements regardless. We can see this in the two territories and over time as well.

Note: Hamas actually won pretty much everywhere in Palestine, not just in Gaza.

 

[Partial Gamification]

More rockets found in UNRWA schools.

To be clear, by the UNRWA

Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets. The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons.

UNRWA strongly and unequivocally condemns the group or groups responsible for this flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Regardless of what was written in the founding literature (written in the late 1800's), there's a Zionist state now, where minorities are treated a lot better than Arab nationalist states.

You're absolutely correct that there was never a completely barren land. Lots of fighting happened pre-1948, Palestinians were expelled from their homes, and Jews were expelled from all over the Middle East. While a huge secular, liberal democracy would be ideal, it's just not feasible.

To move forward, both nationalist movements have to be accepted - Zionism and a Palestinian state. The Palestinians can't just be forever refugees (although as far as I understand, they're the only people where the UN actually passes down refugee status to the children). If you expect a Palestinian state (and you should), it's time to accept Zionism and not see it as a dirty word.
.

Zionism is and will always be a dirty word. An ideology of ethnic cleansing, racism and murder for a pure Juden Stat. Nothing more.

And I refute the point of minorities getting treated well. That's an outright lie seeing the cases of right-wing price tag attacks, racism against black immigrants from Eritrea and so on.

Cementing this is also the treatment of palestinians. We all know how they are treated.

 

[Zen]

.... because Hamas diverts funding for said hospitals, schools and houses to building those tunnels to smuggle more weapons, etc.

See how circular the argument becomes?

I guess you aren't going to respond to what I or anyone else said on the topic of israel as an ally.

 

[Kad5]

I dunno if anyone posted this yet but it seems like Israel technically broke the 2012 ceasefire. Apparantly 24 hours after the ceasefire the IDF shot a palestinian in Gaza.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12758-israel-not-hamas-is-the-serial-truce-breaker-

 

[NullPointer]

So the burden is on the person responding to claims that the Israeli endgame is ethnic cleansing to refute such claims, rather than the person making that sort of outlandish statement? That's bizarre.

The burden wouldn't be in refutation but in presenting an alternative that fits with observation.

I am biased in terms of interpreting Israel's long term goals as ethnic cleansing. During peacetime its a slow cleansing of settlement growth and oppression, and in conflict its through collective punishment.

If Israel doesn't support a two state solution and also doesn't want to grant all people within its land full citizenship and rights in order to maintain a Jewish majority, what other end-game is Israel working towards?

 

[Aaron]

I dunno if anyone posted this yet but it seems like Israel technically broke the 2012 ceasefire. Apparantly 24 hours after the ceasefire the IDF shot a palestinian in Gaza.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12758-israel-not-hamas-is-the-serial-truce-breaker-

Israel doesn't deliver the concessions they promise in the cease fire, and always are the ones to break it. Because there's no one to hold them to their word.

 

[falastini]

Note: Hamas actually won pretty much everywhere in Palestine, not just in Gaza.

It was a fluke situation. Yaser Arafat just died. Fatah was seen as ineffective and corrupt. The Bush administration tried to rush elections for some reason, all while praising Fatah and condemning Hamas... because Palestinians would totally vote for the guy that Bush recommends(what?). I don't think the results would be the same if an election took place today.

The fact that this is a talking point for collective punishment on Gaza citizens is moronic. In fact, I'm betting this war will make Hamas more popular again.

 

[genjiZERO]

Regardless of what was written in the founding literature (written in the late 1800's), there's a Zionist state now, where minorities are treated a lot better than Arab nationalist states.

You're absolutely correct that there was never a completely barren land. Lots of fighting happened pre-1948, Palestinians were expelled from their homes, and Jews were expelled from all over the Middle East. While a huge secular, liberal democracy would be ideal, it's just not feasible.

To move forward, both nationalist movements have to be accepted - Zionism and a Palestinian state. The Palestinians can't just be forever refugees (although as far as I understand, they're the only people where the UN actually passes down refugee status to the children). If you expect a Palestinian state (and you should), it's time to accept Zionism and not see it as a dirty word.

I don't feel you're good at using quotation marks.

Zionism isn't a nationalist movement - it's a religious movement. It completely ignores 25% of the citizenry. It's unacceptable in contemporary times to claim to be a democracy yet legally divide the population into castes with different subsets of rights based upon the religion their ancestors practiced. It's inhumane. It would be no different than if the United States decided it was a Christian country and gave explicitly different different rights to Christians and non-Christians. Zionism is a dirty word because it creates outcomes that are no different than those that existed in South Africa. Zionism is thus Apartheid - something that should never be tolerated.

 

[Freezie KO]

Zionism is and will always be a dirty word. An ideology of ethnic cleansing, racism and murder for a pure Juden Stat. Nothing more.

Zionism means the state is a Jewish nationalist state. If Israel is ethnically cleansing and murdering non-Jews, it's doing a poor job at it. There are Christians and Arabs living and working in Israel, with some even in the government.

Is it racist? Sure, all nationalist states are to some degree. Are you okay with Arab nationalist states? Do you think the Palestinians should have a nationalist state (i.e. "self-determination")? Please answer this. Because if you favor one and not the other, that's quite telling.

And I refute the point of minorities getting treated well. That's an outright lie seeing the cases of right-wing price tag attacks, racism against black immigrants from Eritrea and so on.

Price tag attacks aren't state policy. Even Netanyahu speaks out against them. So how can you attribute that to state policy?

As for racism against black immigrants, there are certainly debates to be had and improvements to be made with regards to immigration policy. But many Western nations have immigration policies that somewhere or another have been labeled "racist." And that said, I never extolled perfection for how Israel treats minorities. I just said that they treat them better than their Arab neighbors.

Cementing this is also the treatment of palestinians. We all know how they are treated.

If Palestine becomes its own state, then Zionism should be equally acceptable. Both are nationalist movements of self-determination. No longer would Israel have to be the responsible for Palestinians, so their treatment wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Cromat]

You're welcome to post them if you don't see them there.

If the version of events doesn't correlate with sources from many other sources of news, then they will be open to questioning.

Okay I'll bite. I'll post some of the stuff I think is notable.

UNWRA finds rockets stored in two of its schools in Gaza:

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school
http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press...placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools

They then returned some of these rockets to the local authorities, ie Hamas:

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/...those-20-rockets-stashed-their-school/374793/

The Arab League urges Hamas to accept the Egyptian ceasefire deal. The ceasefire was accepted by Israel and endorsed by Egypt, the US, the UN, the EU, the Palestinian Authority and the Arab League. Pretty much everyone in the world except for Hamas, Turkey, Qatar and Iran.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/arab-league-chief-urges-hamas-to-accept-egypt-s-truce-plan-562684

For probably the first time in the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict, the foreign minister of an Arab state pretty much openly sides with Israel:

http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFL4N0PS4Z820140717

Apparently the Gazans themselves are also for a ceasefire.

http://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-civilians-actually-reject-hamas-policies-2014-7

Meanwhile in Europe: Germany, France, Italy condemn anti-Semitism in anti-Israel protests

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/22/us-palestinians-israel-antisemitism-idUSKBN0FR1JB20140722

International airlines cancel their flights to Tel Aviv after a rocket landed one mile away from the Ben Gurion international airport.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-07-22-13-31-47

The Israeli government is floating a plan to demilitarize Gaza while opening the border crossings under international surveillance and investing 50 billion dollars to build Gaza

http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-mofaz-plan-for-demilitarizing-gaza/

WSJ Reporter in Gaza publishes a tweet wondering how civilians in Gaza feel when Hamas uses a hospital as a safe place to conduct interviews. He later deletes the tweet after being scorned for it:

https://twitter.com/farahmtafa/status/491605917574504448/photo/1

Israel sets up a field hospital to treat injured Palestinians, and it is welcomed by all:

http://twitchy.com/2014/07/20/shut-...-news-that-idf-will-open-gaza-field-hospital/

 

[Zen]

Zionism means the state is a Jewish nationalist state. If Israel is ethnically cleansing and murdering non-Jews, it's doing a poor job at it. There are Christians and Arabs living and working in Israel, with some even in the government.

Is it racist? Sure, all nationalist states are to some degree. Are you okay with Arab nationalist states? Do you think the Palestinians should have a nationalist state (i.e. "self-determination")? Please answer this. Because if you favor one and not the other, that's quite telling.

Ethnic Cleansing is not necessarily the same as Genocide.

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of creating a territory inhabited by people of a homogeneous or pure ethnicity, religion, culture, and history. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

Ethnic cleansing is usually accompanied with the efforts to remove physical and cultural evidence of the targeted group in the territory through the destruction of homes, social centers, farms, and infrastructure, and by the desecration of monuments, cemeteries, and places of worship.

In the case of non Jewish people residing in Israel (or heck, even the deplorable treatment of Ethiopian Jews) there is a salient argument to be made that Israel exercising, that in a broader stratagem, can be efforts to ethnically cleanse through achieving population transfer. This can be done through low impact means such as denying basic rights afforded to other groups (like the right to vote or citizenship for instance, or a consistent effort to other a particular cultural group by the majority) or more directly (as we see in the west bank), short of simply killing people.

Unless I am completely insane?

 

[Partial Gamification]

Okay I'll bite. I'll post some of the stuff I think is notable.

UNWRA finds rockets stored in two of its schools in Gaza:

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school
http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press...placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools

They then returned some of these rockets to the local authorities, ie Hamas:
[...]

What is up with the smear campaign against UNRWA? Is it that they provide aide for the Palestinians? Is this a lifeline that the Isralei governemnt seeks to sever?

“UNRWA did not give the rockets to Hamas,” spokesman Chris Gunness said.

The rockets were taken away by bomb disposal experts who are answerable to the national unity government, which Hamas has left, Gunness said.

He did not specify, however, what happened to the rockets, which the agency found last week during an inspection, once they were taken out of the UNRWA school.
[...]
The organization convened a Board of Inquiry to investigate the matter.

“All existing evidence will be handed over by UNRWA to the investigation, which can commence as soon as hostilities in Gaza are over.
[...]
“UNRWA has strong, established procedures to maintain the neutrality of all its premises, including a strict no-weapons policy and routine inspections of its installations, to ensure they are only used for humanitarian purposes. UNRWA will uphold and further reinforce its procedures,” Gunness said.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said the “only authority in Gaza is unfortunately Hamas.”
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Prot...rockets-found-on-its-premises-to-Hamas-368358

I would like irrefutable proof that those specific rockets ended up in the hands of Hamas.

 

[Cromat]

What is up with the smear campaign against UNRWA? Is it that they provide aide for the Palestinians? Is this a lifeline that the Isralei governemnt seeks to sever?




I would like irrefutable proof that those specific rockets ended up in the hands of Hamas.

I don't think it's a smear campaign against UNWRA at all. I actually respect it a lot for admitting and condemning this. I just think they probably had no choice but to surrender it to Hamas - the unity government thing is total bullshit, the only government in Gaza is Hamas.

Also, why don't you address the point that weapons are being stored in civilian facilities by Hamas instead of spinning this to some argument about Israel vs. UNWRA?

 

[dripdripsplash]

Zionism means the state is a Jewish nationalist state. If Israel is ethnically cleansing and murdering non-Jews, it's doing a poor job at it. There are Christians and Arabs living and working in Israel, with some even in the government.

Is it racist? Sure, all nationalist states are to some degree. Are you okay with Arab nationalist states? Do you think the Palestinians should have a nationalist state (i.e. "self-determination")? Please answer this. Because if you favor one and not the other, that's quite telling.



Price tag attacks aren't state policy. Even Netanyahu speaks out against them. So how can you attribute that to state policy?

As for racism against black immigrants, there are certainly debates to be had and improvements to be made with regards to immigration policy. But many Western nations have immigration policies that somewhere or another have been labeled "racist." And that said, I never extolled perfection for how Israel treats minorities. I just said that they treat them better than their Arab neighbors.



If Palestine becomes its own state, then Zionism should be equally acceptable. Both are nationalist movements of self-determination. No longer would Israel have to be the responsible for Palestinians, so their treatment wouldn't be an issue.

I don't think the Israeli state should have existed in the first place. The reasoning behind the foundation has no legitimacy in my eyes, seeing that "God gave us these lands" aren't good reasons, in my opinion.

The reason that the Jewish State should not have existed is that it happened at the cost of an entire other people.

If the Zionists chose Argentina or Uganda, argentines or ugandians would have been the target of massacres and ethnic cleansing too, to make room for the Jewish State. I oppose this.

 

[Zeeman]

I don't think the Israeli state should have existed in the first place. The reasoning behind the foundation has no legitimacy in my eyes, seeing that "God gave us these lands" aren't good reasons, in my opinion.

The Jewish State should not have existed since it happened at the cost of an entire other people.

If the Zionists chose Argentina or Uganda, the native peoples would have gone through massacres and ethnic cleansing too, to make room for the Jewish State. I oppose this.

OK, but the fact is that it does exist, so what is your solution?

 

[yarden24]

After all the refutation of this constant propaganda you keep repeating the same slogans. Yes israel has non jews within its borders, no they do not have the same rights as jews - especially zionists.

Yes the US had labelled hamas a terrorist organization. Yes they have done the same to just about every other resistance organisation on the planet

No, I'm not going to be repeating the same refutations over and over and no, nobody here supports hamas but we do know how to differentiate between cause and symptom

please bring sources that show that zionists have more rights then anyone else

 

[Partial Gamification]

I don't think it's a smear campaign against UNWRA at all. I actually respect it a lot for admitting and condemning this. I just think they probably had no choice but to surrender it to Hamas - the unity government thing is total bullshit, the only government in Gaza is Hamas.

Also, why don't you address the point that weapons are being stored in civilian facilities by Hamas instead of spinning this to some argument about Israel vs. UNWRA?

It seems that in the article I linked this was the first time that they had found weapons in their facilities. Gaza doesn't have a lot of places to hide caches of weapons that can be secured.

Its is clear the rockets are hidden in these locations because of martyrdom's twisted appeal and chancing that the location is more secure than an underground cache that will likely be targeted. The rocket fire enabled Protective Edge. Brother's Keeper and the burning of Abu Khdeir alive enabled the rocket fire. The murder of the three Isreali hitchhikers (posted about previously) enabled Brother's Keeper and the revenge killing.

Hamas isn't breaking the cycle moving rockets around, holding civilians hostage; but, Israel has made a number of those civilians willing hostages. Does that give Israel the right to decimate those that stay and try to piece together shattered lives? The militants in Hamas appear to have been pushed into the extreme, and what do you think pushes them there? I'd say it is the conditions of a lasting occupation, and even a slow bleeding of an entire population and culture.