I know I am being extremely pedantic here, and whilst I appreciate the effort by WP in doing this, I also think the people represented should be done so in some form of scientific measurement. Here the Israel soldiers in this image occupy a space that is often 30-40% more than what Palestinian civilians or combatants occupy in other parts of the image for the same number of people.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]
- Thread starter L0st Id3ntity
- Start date
- Status
I know I am being extremely pedantic here, and whilst I appreciate the effort by WP in doing this, I also think the people represented should be done so in some form of scientific measurement. Here the Israel soldiers in this image occupy a space that is often 30-40% more than what Palestinian civilians or combatants occupy in other parts of the image for the same number of people.
I just think Hamas gives no choice to a lot of the people. The tunnel entrances are in homes, the munitions are stored there, rockets fired from nearby residential areas. Israel sends warnings but where can the people go ?
Hamas knows this will happen. They'd been shooting hundreds of rockets for over a week into Israel. They sent squads through the tunnels to kidnap people or do whatever. They obviously are aware of what's happened in the past and you'd think they know how ineffective their tactics are. Militarily the rockets make no sense. So it's easy to believe they do this for the results in that WaPo graphic.
Hamas knows this will happen. They'd been shooting hundreds of rockets for over a week into Israel. They sent squads through the tunnels to kidnap people or do whatever. They obviously are aware of what's happened in the past and you'd think they know how ineffective their tactics are. Militarily the rockets make no sense. So it's easy to believe they do this for the results in that WaPo graphic.
zer0blivion
Member
The new episode of Democracy Now! is up, with Rula Jabreal and a debate about the US media coverage.
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/23/stream
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/23/stream
Systemwarrior
Member
zer0blivion
Member
It's also out of date. The death toll is over 650 Palestinians dead now.
yeah Israel dose care.
I'm really confused as to why these tunnels are a priority all of a sudden. I don't remember anyone mentioning them at all a week ago before the ground invasion, just the rocket attacks and as far as I know there haven't been any suicide attacks on Israel using them. So what's the deal?
No they don't, they just want to close off the tunnels at any cost.
Oh well, I adjusted the image to be accurate in measurements anyway. Though now the Palestinian's just look overweight….
WP.
Adjusted.
Terra Firma
Banned
What are these "front lines"?
And so what if someone is doing something as despicable as using a human shield? The worse act is not caring about the human shield and shooting anyway. Someone made an analogy earlier that I think is quite apt:
If a handful of bank robbers took dozens of people hostage, would the police be right in bombing the bank and killing everyone, human shields and robbers?
Given that incident where the IDF specially targeted four football playing kids and hunted them until every single one was dead, I don't think everything is Hamas fault.
I love the assumption that every children killed was a human shield with zero evidence. This has to be the first time that civilian casualties, including children are automatically assumed to be human shields.
The IDF claimed that those 4 kids killed in the beach were human shields, and people still believe their bullshit.
The IDF claimed that those 4 kids killed in the beach were human shields, and people still believe their bullshit.
People need to justify kids being killed i guess rather than see it for what it is.
zer0blivion
Member
46 schools, 56 mosques, 7 hospitals, the beach, a cafe and who knows how many homes. You know, front lines, military targets.
The Human Rights Report proved there was no evidence that suggest the kids were playing near weapon sites. It's a cover up and a lie that the IDF is using and frankly lots of people seem to take their word for granted.
sindbadthesailor
Member
It's the defense murderers use to justify them committing acts of atrocity.
You're right, I also want to know. We've never heard of an attack on israeli soil before. That's odd that all of a sudden this gets all the attention.
dripdripsplash
Member
What a intelligent and hard hitting refutation!
I already posted it in the other Israel thread (we have like three of them right now, yes?), but I post it here again, since /r/neogaf actually have some people with really interesting opinions.
http://www.reddit.com/r/NeoGAF/comments/2b7g3t/neofaggots_believe_israel_is_committing_massacres/
http://www.reddit.com/r/NeoGAF/comments/2b7g3t/neofaggots_believe_israel_is_committing_massacres/
Are you serious? Holy shit! And of course I'm sure no one in the media here in America is calling them out for it.
It's like when American media was caught in the initial Iraq war buildup, swallowing every ounce of propaganda but instead of an eventual backlash to the propaganda they have just stayed in that mindset for 30 years.
Of course not. That is really a bad analogy, because bombing is never an option in a bank robbery, but to clear out weapon chaches, it is.
You have religious zealots convincing other religious zealots to keep weapons in their houses. If anything bad happens (like Israel bombing your house and killing you children), it will be the will of Allah and you did your part in defending Palestine.
I don't blame these people for accepting Hamas into their homes and supporting terrorism as a means of political progress, they are pushed in a corner.
Yeah, that is fucked up, but implying an intent on an institutional level is pushing it, considering we haven't seen any more cases.
On the other hand, Hamas has been placing it's weapons in places where children most definitely could get hurt or killed, I think it is less of a stretch to consider that civilian collateral damage might be part of their PR plan.
I already posted it in the other Israel thread (we have like three of them right now, yes?), but I post it here again, since /r/neogaf actually have some people with really interesting opinions.
http://www.reddit.com/r/NeoGAF/comments/2b7g3t/neofaggots_believe_israel_is_committing_massacres/
OBeepingK
it's like....they are always right.... why? .... fuk I can't say any shit anymore... I
Bad analogy though.
You live in Brooklyn.
Some people in Queens start firing rockets into your area. They just land randomly at random times. Fortunately the local government built a pretty effective defense, and there are sirens that go off when these things are coming so you can seek shelter.
Now the rockets are coming every day, for over a week. Hundreds of them. Over a thousand all together just over the past 10 days. Most land harmlessly but they have killed people, including children. Your kids have to go to school and be aware of all the public bomb shelters.
You also come to find out that the nuts in Queens are building tunnels. They used these to smuggle arms and in at least one high profile case capture a soldier who they held hostage for years.
You also realize that as bad as all this is, it's better than when they used to send over suicide bombers to blow you up inside cafe's and restaurants. Fortunately the giant defensive wall you build mostly stopped that.
The government knows where the tunnels are, they have intel on where rockets are fired from. They send warnings prior to blowing shit up. But yes, civilians definitely die in the process. And that's the point of the attacks in the first place.
Goldenroad
Member
This isn't war. It's genocide. They need to be stopped.
Genocide of Hamas militants with big collateral damage to unarmed civilians? you nailed it bro.
The problem with all these analogies are people writing them decide to choose one point in time (usually depending on where the author of this analogy stands) . In example of Lappland.
Lappland shooting rockets at Sweden says person X. Person Y argues that Sweden started with killing soumi people and then they start shooting the said rockets. You see the difference?
Both sides want to blame the other and say 'you started'. That is ridiculous. What is reality is 1) Israel don't want Fatah and Hamas to reconcile 2) Israel never held their end of the bargain with the 2012 cease fire and 3) Rockets into Israel have been very infrequent the past year. Usually shot by some other assholes.
Lappland shooting rockets at Sweden says person X. Person Y argues that Sweden started with killing soumi people and then they start shooting the said rockets. You see the difference?
Both sides want to blame the other and say 'you started'. That is ridiculous. What is reality is 1) Israel don't want Fatah and Hamas to reconcile 2) Israel never held their end of the bargain with the 2012 cease fire and 3) Rockets into Israel have been very infrequent the past year. Usually shot by some other assholes.
Dude Abides
Banned
Bad analogy. For this to work Brooklyn would have to be intentionally targeting hospitals, intentionally targeting homes knowing civilians live there, to the tune of a 5:1 ratio of civilian:militant deaths.
Also, demolishing homes of people simply because they are related to someone who fired a rocket. Pretty gangsterish, that one.
"Civilians die" is a pretty weaselly way to elide this. Akin to "Mistakes were made."
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
It did miss a fair part of the analogy. You see, the people of Brooklyn aren't peaceably minding their own business in this analysis.
They're actually occupying the perimeter of Queens, and preventing the people of Queens from accessing books, candles, crayons, clothing, cups, cutlery, crockery, electric appliances such as refrigerators and washing machines, glasses, light bulbs, matches, musical instruments, needles, sheets, blankets, shoes, mattresses, spare machine and car parts, and threads.
The direct effects of the Brooklyn blockade is that 80% of the people in Queens are living below the global poverty line.
The people of Queens cannot fish nor work in industry, they are limited to agriculture only, but fertilizer imports are banned.
Over 20,000 people have been made homeless. There are not sufficient building materials to rebuild the shattered houses. Infrastructure continually worsens.
What's more, the people of Queens have actually been peaceable for the last two years after a ceasefire agreement.
However, Brooklyn has decided to breach the ceasefire "just in case", suspiciously close to the people of Queens managing to put together a unified front to protest the economic blockade.
What's more, the Brooklyn government shows no concern for the ordinary people of Queens, who may not even support the authority in Queens, and insists on bombing schools, hospitals, beaches, town centres and other vital infrastructure.
The rockets into Brooklyn are certainly unacceptable, yes, and have wracked up a small but important death toll - but the death toll in Queens from the actions of Brooklyn is approaching twenty times that figure.
They're actually occupying the perimeter of Queens, and preventing the people of Queens from accessing books, candles, crayons, clothing, cups, cutlery, crockery, electric appliances such as refrigerators and washing machines, glasses, light bulbs, matches, musical instruments, needles, sheets, blankets, shoes, mattresses, spare machine and car parts, and threads.
The direct effects of the Brooklyn blockade is that 80% of the people in Queens are living below the global poverty line.
The people of Queens cannot fish nor work in industry, they are limited to agriculture only, but fertilizer imports are banned.
Over 20,000 people have been made homeless. There are not sufficient building materials to rebuild the shattered houses. Infrastructure continually worsens.
What's more, the people of Queens have actually been peaceable for the last two years after a ceasefire agreement.
However, Brooklyn has decided to breach the ceasefire "just in case", suspiciously close to the people of Queens managing to put together a unified front to protest the economic blockade.
What's more, the Brooklyn government shows no concern for the ordinary people of Queens, who may not even support the authority in Queens, and insists on bombing schools, hospitals, beaches, town centres and other vital infrastructure.
The rockets into Brooklyn are certainly unacceptable, yes, and have wracked up a small but important death toll - but the death toll in Queens from the actions of Brooklyn is approaching twenty times that figure.
Yeah, imagine if Mexican drug cartels built tunnels going under the border, and used them to smuggle drugs and violent criminals across the border. Imagine if they terrorized local populations, kidnapping and murdering police officers, while engaging in things like human trafficking. Surely the US would bomb the crap out of every border town with cartel affiliations. Good thing none of that happens though, and we can only rely on fantasies to make specious points.
ZiZ
Member
you forgot the part where the people in Queens used to live in Brooklyn but were kicked out and now they're caged up in queens and denied water, food, electricity, medicine and other basic stuff.
also, the people in Staten Island who aren't firing rockets are constantly driven out of their homes by people from Brooklyn because "Fuck them we're from Brooklyn and they're filthy Statenians".
Terra Firma
Banned
Way to bring up suicide bombers, which are not part of this conflict, nor were they part of the 2012 conflict, nor were they part of the 2008 conflict. While we're at it, why not bring in the PLO or the Munich murders? "Giant defensive wall" seriously? A wall that cuts INTO territory that is not yours is "defensive" all of a sudden? A wall that blocks access for your neighbour to go from his living room to his dining room is "defensive"? A wall that de facto steals land that does not belong to you is "defensive" all of a sudden?
The analogy I posted is completely apt. Your hypothetical situation is completely and utterly unrealistic and unanalogous.
Yes, Hamas and its people woke up one morning and thought, "Hmm it's a bright and sunny day. Perfect for some completely random rockets to be fired at our FRIENDLY, TOTALLY NON-OPPRESSIVE neighbour." Even so, that is completely irrelevant. Even if a criminal came into your house and was firing randomly towards your neighbours, that does not warrant the killing of everyone inside the house. Would it be okay if the police warned you before sending a bazooka to completely obliterate your family along with the murderer?
Even so, in the bank robber analogy, Hamas is analogous to bank robbers and hostage takers. So they are perfectly analogous to the Israeli hypothesis of Hamas using human shields in any and all of its operation. Expanding upon that analogy, if the bank robbers would arbitrarily shoot outside the bank, killing bystanders once in a while completely randomly (by not even aiming for anyone in particular), would destroying and bombing the bank, killing the civilians inside, be a viable solution?
theignoramus
Member
That analogy totally ignores the siege and antagonistic behaviour that triggered the rocket fire. Instead it pretends like the side on the receiving end of the rockets is the reasonable one, merely attending to its own business.
All of that is true. Hospitals, schools and civilian homes are certainly hit and presumably deliberately targeted considering how good the IDF is at this sort of thing. The question then is: are they trying to avoid civilian deaths? Sending warnings to get out etc. Are they only targeting places that house rockets/munitions/tunnel entrances.
All valid questions.
But your solution to stop the rocket attacks and eliminate the tunnels is what. You forgot to mention it.
They are a priority because Hamas is escalating their attacks. These tunnels are used to resupply their arms and attempt to kidnap or suicide bomb civilians or military personnel. If Israel takes out the bulk of these tunnels Hamas will eventually run out of ammunition and be forced to finally sit down and plan out a permanent cease fire.
Will people stop with these hyperboles. If Israel wanted to actually commit genocide with the technology they have it would be over in hours. Palestine would be flattened with the kind of equipment and size of the army Israel has. That is not the case. Currently after days of back and fourth bombings and attacks Palestine has lost roughly 500-600. A far cry from attempting to kill the roughly 2 million Palestinians. And of course many of the civilian deaths can be attributed to Hamas conducting their attacks and storing their equipment right next to schools, hospitals, etc.
Many of the civilian deaths can be attributed to Israel killing them.
Another poor comparison. Hamas is a terrorist group that represents the Palestinian government. Drug cartels are criminal agencies that only represent themselves.
If the Mexican government aggressively claimed to deny the existance of the U.S.A and sent military personnel to suicide bomb civilians and lobbed missles over to Texas then we would certainly find invading Mexico worth the investment. And we would occupy it and keep it under our thumb because unlike when we took over Iraq, when we leave if it goes to crap because Mexico is next door it will directly affect us as opossed to Iraq where we are far enough away to not care.
The analogy obviously doesn't work as hostages are human...
Terra Firma
Banned
It's called public relations. If Israel was going to go all in and destroy all Palestinians, it would have no support from sane countries.
There are MANY solutions to stopping rocket fire. One would be to stop the conditions that are causing this much anger in Gaza, such as the blockade followed by any of the following:
1. Sending in a well equipped UN peacekeeping force.
2. Relinquish control of Gaza over to Egypt or some other country.
3. Making alliances with Palestinian factions, arming them, and letting them take control instead of Hamas and its like-minded belligerents. Heck, Fatah, a Palestinian group, is already being considered Israel's toady. Why not arm Fatah members in Gaza so that they can take control?
I'm sure there are many more scenarios that can bring about peace but they all call for Israel to actually make good on its promises and not say "peace" while doing anything but work towards it.
In the end, Hamas was elected for a reason. It wasn't to wipe Israel off the map. It was because talking peace with Israel, as Fatah was doing, resulted in more land grabs, more deaths, and more wiping away of any potential Palestinian state off the map. Hamas wouldn't even BE in power if Israel made good on its promises and made genuine concessions for peace.
Speaking of the wall, what are your thoughts on Egypt's barrier between it and Gaza. But yes generally walls are defensive.
But to your point, no in a common everyday US experience, the police blowing up your house wouldn't be ok. Even if the police warned you.
But remember, the rockets were coming for over a week. Over a thousand of them. So if that happened, and the national guard said "OK enough. We are stopping this shit. Everyone get the hell out because we are clearing the place so this ends."
And if that's not ok, then how do you stop it?
whats new? the vast majority of jewish isrealis are bigots, it is a racist country, that practices racism in every day life.
theignoramus
Member
Stop with your false dichotomies and poor analogies and step into the real world for a minute.
There was a reconciliation plan on the table between Fatah and Hamas that Israel has been trying to undermine since day 1, likely because a unified Palestinian peace initiative undercuts Israel's strategy of dragging out the "peace process" (and they do that by pointing to Gaza and saying "see, the Palestinians are divided. How can we make peace when we have no partner?")
Stop sabotaging the Fatah/Hamas reconciliation, agree to ease some of the restrictions on the blockade, halt cross border "incursions" into Gaza and quit rounding up Hamas affiliates in the West Bank on trumped up charges.
That proposal wouldnt guarantee anything more than a half year truce, but it would stop the immediate problem of the bloodshed occurring on both sides.
Terra Firma
Banned
So, if the armed person in your house continues random firing for over a week, it makes it okay to blow up the house?
No, in reality, you get a specialized team to go in and take out the attacker while PROTECTING the family and getting them out of harm's way. Israel's bombing indiscriminately does not protect anyone, least of all Israel itself. For every Hamas member Israel kills, there will be tens or hundreds of new Hamas members because Israel keeps on reminding the Palestinians why it is not a serious partner in peace.
Yes, Egypt is also wrong in erecting this wall. But at least they did not erect it in the middle of Gaza and call all the land behind the wall to be theirs. If Israel built a wall that was within the constraints of the 67 borders (this was COMPLETELY VIABLE), there would have been little to protest. If America builds a giant wall between itself and Mexico, you won't see much resistance (except from a financial standpoint). But if this wall put a lot of Mexican territory behind it, effectively claiming large swathes of Mexican land as American, it would not be surprising for Mexico to attack America.
That doesn't seem to fit with the narrative presented by this article: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died
It seems like talks were happening and there were issues on both sides, but the real end was when Fatah joined with Hamas in government.
Kenshin001
Member
You know America stole Mexico's land right? Do you think America should return to 1847 borders and give the land back?
Maninthemirror
Banned
Israel COULD but won't because even US won't support more than this. Israel's only leverage is Hamas. take Hamas rockets out of the equation and its a clear genocide...
Civilian deaths from 1987-2011 (before Iron Dome)
NOTE:
Hamas Rockets were first introduced in 2001. The Israeli deaths first went up and then down, however the Palestinian deaths went up considerably. Before 2001, Palestinians still died considerably more than Israelis and that was WITHOUT the rockets excuse. Majority of deaths from 2000-2003 were from suicide bombings on the Israeli side
Because hamas is not robbing a bank, they are shooting rockets from their own rural area, your analogy sucks. why do you need an analogy? what is so complicated in this situation? force A who lives among people A fire at people B, Force B fires at force A killing people A too.
you may think IDF is shooting aimlessly and systematically and call "genocide", problem is its a thought, i have not seen any proof of aimlessly or systematically fiering. Moreover aimlessly anyhow is mostly disregarded easily as misfire, or targeting error - such as the 4 kids at beach.
Also you must remember that to cover their soldiers, which can be in threat during invasion into gaza, IDF is allowed to use fire which may hurt "non-involved" citizens. This is just how things work, no one here who lives in a democracy and has an army who has or would fight a force that fights and fires from its own civilian area would acted in any other way.
Not only that, but prior to the invasion, IDF was fiering only from planes, also claimed by many aimlessly, genocide people call, and then IDF go in with infantry, and have many casualties, and people call genocide again when shit goes even worse. I think to call genocide A) things should have been at least the other way around as in infantry left, then planes would just bomb aimlessly, because well if soldiers are dying to just withdraw and bomb'em no?
b) hamas to civilian ratio of dead should be over 150/600 or whatever the number is now, varied to who claims to know now.
this IS the picture of what is going on, people will now counter argue by looking at the bigger picture, adding in other levels of other times, and other conflicts, so be it.
Oh yes, I do think Hamas is profiting from death of their civilists. But there are quite a lot of cases where the israeli military just killed people unreasonable. Alone the white phosphoros or the fletchette ammunition, the attack on the beach cafe with on single suspect in it (that one where a lot of people came together to watch the world cup), the sniper who shot the man looking for his family, the declaration that Israel has no problems to kill foreign reporters. You could tell me that the IDF just has a lot of rogue units, but they actually say every time that they just kill human shields.
/r/neogaf is amazing, yes.
It's terrible, but it's not genocide. The state of Israel most likely just want the people out of the land, not dead. If they would do a full blown genocide the deathtolls would look a whole lot different.
Nope, the Palestinian government is represented by the Fatah regime in Ramallah. Hamas is a criminal organization that has capitalized on the poverty, fear, and desperation of the local population to garner political influence. They provide basic social services to the poorest neighborhoods that have been neglected by the government. Drug cartels in Mexico do all those exact things, and practically "govern" large swaths of territory in northern Mexico.
They don't use suicide bombs and rockets because those are tactics borne of desperation. Instead they have the money and resources to engage law enforcement directly, and win, something Hamas is wholly incapable of. Since at least 2006 they've killed hundreds of Americans, mostly law enforcement officials, but still way more civilians than Hamas.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked