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[walking fiend]

Number of deaths doesn't equal intent. The number is what equals intent. Both sides suck.

Except that if Hamas knew that their rockets would actually kill that many people, they wouldn't even fire them? Of course you know that they can pinpoint where their rockets hit either, and that it is very difficult to say that they had targeted a school when a rocket hits one.

 

[Jonm1010]

Criticizing Israel doesn't make me a Hamas supporter but given the tactics that Israel utilizes (apartheid-like state, open air prison, illegal settlements) I really don't see what choice the Palestinians have but to fight back.

After reading up the history of the region over the past 70 years (remember this didn't just start two weeks ago) I can safely say that if I was put in the same position as Palestinians are in I would fight back. There really isn't any other option:
1.) Lay down and let Israel screw you over by building illegal settlements, treating you like a second class citizen, and blockading the borders.
2.) Try to escape but how likely is that when the borders are closed and your essentially locked in a prison.
3.) Wait for someone to come save you. (Highly unlikely given the amount of international support for Israel)
4.) Fight Back

What I still don't understand is what Israel's endgame is here. They don't want to outright take over Gaza and the West Bank because they would have to give Palestinians a voice in the government, they don't respect the borderlines and continue to take land from the Palestinians, they continue to suffocate the regions with blockades which leads to high unemployment rates and civil unrest, and they continue to bitch about getting attacked and retaliate by bombing Gaza every few years.

This is unsustainable in the long run and I would like to hear what Israel's plan is for a peace treaty. Are they going to give the illegally taken over land back to the Palestinians? Are they willing to open the borders and allow for trade so there's some form of economy in Palestine? Are they even willing to take a look at Hamas' pretty reasonable demands? What are Israel's baseline demands? My Google-fu is failing me because I can't find anything about what Israel's demands are for a peace treaty.

And if the shoe were on the other foot, if Israel were being kept in an open air prison and indiscriminately and disproportionately bombed every few years, I can't imagine a single Israeli cheerleader in this thread would be claiming the Palestinians were in the right for their actions.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

Criticizing Israel doesn't make me a Hamas supporter but given the tactics that Israel utilizes (apartheid-like state, open air prison, illegal settlements) I really don't see what choice the Palestinians have but to fight back.

After reading up the history of the region over the past 70 years (remember this didn't just start two weeks ago) I can safely say that if I was put in the same position as Palestinians are in I would fight back. There really isn't any other option:
1.) Lay down and let Israel screw you over by building illegal settlements, treating you like a second class citizen, and blockading the borders.
2.) Try to escape but how likely is that when the borders are closed and your essentially locked in a prison.
3.) Wait for someone to come save you. (Highly unlikely given the amount of international support for Israel)
4.) Fight Back

What I still don't understand is what Israel's endgame is here. They don't want to outright take over Gaza and the West Bank because they would have to give Palestinians a voice in the government, they don't respect the borderlines and continue to take land from the Palestinians, they continue to suffocate the regions with blockades which leads to high unemployment rates and civil unrest, and they continue to bitch about getting attacked and retaliate by bombing Gaza every few years.

This is unsustainable in the long run and I would like to hear what Israel's plan is for a peace treaty. Are they going to give the illegally taken over land back to the Palestinians? Are they willing to open the borders and allow for trade so there's some form of economy in Palestine? Are they even willing to take a look at Hamas' pretty reasonable demands? What are Israel's baseline demands? My Google-fu is failing me because I can't find anything about what Israel's demands are for a peace treaty.

I would assume it's a very slow genocide under the cover of collateral damage. Keep shrinking the strip and the west bank, bomb them, repeat until there's so few of them left that they can let them become citizens and look like the good guys while wiping palestine off the map.

 

[ramuh]

Must read article on Netanyahu's strategy. I want to highlight the whole article but here are selective quotes if you're in a hurry:

POLITICO: Israel Provoked This War



We need more articles like this, instead of pathetic posturing from idiots "tired of apologizing for Israel", whose entire spiel consists of "Well what would US do if Mexico is firing rockets??" or "Where's the outrage for Syria??", effectively obfuscating the underlying problem of settlements, siege and occupation.

We have already established that the Current Government in Israel doesn't want a true two state solution. It doesn't fit their narrative or Hamas's.

 

[Aaron]

Then I propose The airstrikes stops. And for every rocket fired randomly at a location within Israel a random high caliber artillery shell is fired random back. If there are 100 rockets make it 100 rounds.

Israel don't fire randomly. I don't think the weapons they're using even have that ability. They're simply too modern. Maybe change that to gunning down a palestinian child in the street? The IDF do that with seeming randomness.

 

[ramuh]

Except that if Hamas knew that their rockets would actually kill that many people, they wouldn't even fire them? Of course you know that they can pinpoint where their rockets hit either, and that it is very difficult to say that they had targeted a school when a rocket hits one.

But the intent is still the intent. Just because they 'maybe' don't want to hit a terminal at the airport or a residential building doesn't excuse that it's blindly firing on the other side in hopes for damage.. any damage.

 

[ramuh]

Israel don't fire randomly. I don't think the weapons they're using even have that ability. They're simply too modern. Maybe change that to gunning down a palestinian child in the street? The IDF do that with seeming randomness.

No need to be facetious. I'm only offering an equitable arrangement that makes both sides share the blame more equally.

Edit" sorry for double post.

 

[RustyNails]

We have already established that the Current Government in Israel doesn't want a true two state solution. It doesn't fit their narrative or Hamas's.

The article is more than just on Netanyahu and his cabal. It spells out exactly who broke the ceasefire and why.

The notion that it was Israel, not Hamas, that violated a cease-fire agreement will undoubtedly offend a wide swath of Israel supporters. To point out that it is not the first time Israel has done so will offend them even more deeply. But it was Shmuel Zakai, a retired brigadier general and former commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division, and not “leftist” critics, who said about the Israel Gaza war of 2009 that during the six-month period of a truce then in place, Israel made a central error “by failing to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians in the [Gaza] Strip. … You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they are in and expect Hamas just to sit around and do nothing.”

 

[Aaron]

But the intent is still the intent. Just because they 'maybe' don't want to hit a terminal at the airport or a residential building doesn't excuse that it's blindly firing on the other side in hopes for damage.. any damage.

This is literally all Hamas can hope for. They have no other options. The last time they negotiated with Israel, Isreal didn't honor their side of the agreement, and broke the cease fire anyway.

 

[ramuh]

The article is more than just on Netanyahu and his cabal. It spells out exactly who broke the ceasefire and why.

So in essence your saying that it's out of desperation? Didn't they just joined Fatah in a unity government? You know Hamas would never relinquish that. Maybe if there did this cycle wouldn't have happen but maybe something at the UN would have. (State recognition). As long as Hamas agreed to see Israel as a state and not something that needs to be destroyed.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

No need to be facetious. I'm only offering an equitable arrangement that makes both sides share the blame more equally.

Edit" sorry for double post.

Whe one side has the blood of ten times as many innocents on its hand, there is no equal guilt. There is heavily lopsided guilt and criticism to be doled out.

 

[ramuh]

Whe one side has the blood of ten times as many innocents on its hand, there is no equal guilt. There is heavily lopsided guilt and criticism to be doled out.

That's why I mentioned the stop targeting of air strikes in favor of blindly firing an artillery shell in Gaza for every rocket.

 

[crimsondynamics]

Then I propose The airstrikes stops. And for every rocket fired randomly at a location within Israel a random high caliber artillery shell is fired random back. If there are 100 rockets make it 100 rounds.

An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

 

[Aaron]

That's why I mentioned the stop targeting of air strikes in favor of blindly firing an artillery shell in Gaza for every rocket.

And I told you this is impossible. Not to mention absurd. Fairness and morality have no place in war. It's about achieving your goals, and for Israel that's weakening Gaza as much as possible. Killing people and destroying facilities is a way to accomplish that.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

That's why I mentioned the stop targeting of air strikes in favor of blindly firing an artillery shell in Gaza for every rocket.

That macabre idea still wouldn't account for the fact that you're randomly firing a rocket at the human equivalent of a fish in a bucket.

 

[ramuh]

An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

So what should Israel do to protect their lands? Wait until the death count is high enough to retaliate? How about a ceasefire with a strong UN presence in Gaza to see goods get to the people (easing the borders) and also a peacekeeping force looking out for tunnets into Israel.

 

[KingK]

Criticizing Israel doesn't make me a Hamas supporter but given the tactics that Israel utilizes (apartheid-like state, open air prison, illegal settlements) I really don't see what choice the Palestinians have but to fight back.

After reading up the history of the region over the past 70 years (remember this didn't just start two weeks ago) I can safely say that if I was put in the same position as Palestinians are in I would fight back. There really isn't any other option:
1.) Lay down and let Israel screw you over by building illegal settlements, treating you like a second class citizen, and blockading the borders.
2.) Try to escape but how likely is that when the borders are closed and your essentially locked in a prison.
3.) Wait for someone to come save you. (Highly unlikely given the amount of international support for Israel)
4.) Fight Back

What I still don't understand is what Israel's endgame is here. They don't want to outright take over Gaza and the West Bank because they would have to give Palestinians a voice in the government, they don't respect the borderlines and continue to take land from the Palestinians, they continue to suffocate the regions with blockades which leads to high unemployment rates and civil unrest, and they continue to bitch about getting attacked and retaliate by bombing Gaza every few years.

This is unsustainable in the long run and I would like to hear what Israel's plan is for a peace treaty. Are they going to give the illegally taken over land back to the Palestinians? Are they willing to open the borders and allow for trade so there's some form of economy in Palestine? Are they even willing to take a look at Hamas' pretty reasonable demands? What are Israel's baseline demands? My Google-fu is failing me because I can't find anything about what Israel's demands are for a peace treaty.

Right, I agree with this post entirely. As far as I can tell, Israel's endgame is to gradually expand settlements until they can annex the West Bank while safely maintaining a demographic Jewish majority. I recall my professor (a Jewish rabbi) from a class I took on the conflict quoting a prominent Israeli politician from decades ago (I can't remember who) saying as much.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

Recognize palestine as a state, 67 borders, UN peace keeping force, Anti-terrorism squads that target individuals rather than indiscriminate murder. Lots of options.

 

[crimsondynamics]

So what should Israel do to protect their lands? Wait until the death count is high enough to retaliate? How about a ceasefire with a strong UN presence in Gaza to see goods get to the people (easing the borders) and also a peacekeeping force looking out for tunnets into Israel.

This is a circular argument. What do you suggest the Palestinians do to protect themselves?

 

[Aaron]

So what should Israel do to protect their lands? Wait until the death count is high enough to retaliate? How about a ceasefire with a strong UN presence in Gaza to see goods get the people (easing the borders) and also a peacekeeping force looking out for tunnets into Israel.

None of this is a benefit to Israel. Thanks in part for a large backing from the US, they are well protected. They want Gaza to remain as weak and fearful as possible.

 

[ramuh]

And I told you this is impossible. Not to mention absurd. Fairness and morality have no place in war. It's about achieving your goals, and for Israel that's weakening Gaza as much as possible. Killing people and destroying facilities is a way to accomplish that.

IMO Israel's= weaken Hamas's capability to fire rockets into Israeli with impunity. Prevent World sympathies for Hamas, Building settlements in the West bank (stupid) where a secular Palestinian Government would be best to work with.

Hamas- Continue for to achieve international status to get Aid money (47 US mill from US already) to recover the loss of Iran 20 Million a month money ( from backing Sunnis in Syria). Closing of the Rataf border. Any deaths to Israelis or economic damage (closing airports) will be viewed as a success. When Israel does back out of Gaza, claim victory.

 

[KingK]

So what should Israel do to protect their lands? Wait until the death count is high enough to retaliate? How about a ceasefire with a strong UN presence in Gaza to see goods get to the people (easing the borders) and also a peacekeeping force looking out for tunnets into Israel.

See, I and I think a lot of people would be fine with that, but the Israeli government would never accept it. They hate the UN and part of their ceasefire agreement with Gaza the last time around was to gradually ease the blockade, which they never did, so Hamas would have no reason to trust it.

 

[walking fiend]

But the intent is still the intent. Just because they 'maybe' don't want to hit a terminal at the airport or a residential building doesn't excuse that it's blindly firing on the other side in hopes for damage.. any damage.

Yes, but you do not know if their intent is to kill as many people as they can, when they 'know' that will not happen. They intent is most possibly to instill fear; however, their mean to achieve that intent is certainly killing some people.

This is very crucial. Is the intent of Israel genocide, or is it policide? Both extremely condemnable crimes, but still very different crimes. The same can be said about Hamas.

See, I and I think a lot of people would be fine with that, but the Israeli government would never accept it. They hate the UN and part of their ceasefire agreement with Gaza the last time around was to gradually ease the blockade, which they never did, so Hamas would have no reason to trust it.

Why do people think people in Palestine should be content by anything but total freedom? Would Americans be happy if they were told that they have to stop all their trades, all their manufacturing facilities, everything, but instead they will be given food and shelter?

 

[ramuh]

This is a circular argument. What do you suggest the Palestinians do to protect themselves?

From what? If the rockets stop and so do the airstrikes, tell me what you want them to protect themselves from? Blockade? A US, EU, Jordan, Egypt, and Israeli designated Terrorist Group? If any blockage is lifting a UN peacekeeper force (for real this time) needs to be there to see and make sure all sides are on the same page. No more rockets (shut it down with impudnity) no more closed crossings or severe limiting of material and goods needed in the Gaza.

 

[badb0y]

From what? If the rockets stop and so do the airstrikes, tell me what you want them to protect themselves from? Blockade? A US, EU, Jordan, Egypt, and Israeli designated Terrorist Group? If any blockage is lifting a UN peacekeeper force (for real this time) needs to be there to see and make sure all sides are on the same page. No more rockets (shut it down with impudnity) no more closed crossings or severe limiting of material and goods needed in the Gaza.

And what about the illegal settlements and random checkpoints? West Bank has been largely cooperative recently and still the Israeli's continue their illegal expansion.

 

[walking fiend]

From what? If the rockets stop and so do the airstrikes, tell me what you want them to protect themselves from? Blockade? A US, EU, Jordan, Egypt, and Israeli designated Terrorist Group? If any blockage is lifting a UN peacekeeper force (for real this time) needs to be there to see and make sure all sides are on the same page. No more rockets (shut it down with impudnity) no more closed crossings or severe limiting of material and goods needed in the Gaza.

What kind of life do you think Palestinians in the west bank have? And do you think Hamas was created just cause, or do you know how Palestinians were treated before Hamas?

 

[crimsondynamics]

From what? If the rockets stop and so do the airstrikes, tell me what you want them to protect themselves from? Blockade? A US, EU, Jordan, Egypt, and Israeli designated Terrorist Group? If any blockage is lifting a UN peacekeeper force (for real this time) needs to be there to see and make sure all sides are on the same page. No more rockets (shut it down with impudnity) no more closed crossings or severe limiting of material and goods needed in the Gaza.

The humanitarian crisis?

 

[ramuh]

And what about the illegal settlements and random checkpoints? West Bank has been largely cooperative recently and still the Israeli's continue their illegal expansion.

What kind of life do you think Palestinians in the west bank have? And do you think Hamas was created just cause, or do you know how Palestinians were treated before Hamas?

We were discussing the Gaza War going on, no the West Bank. But I will answer this. Fatah is the only level headed Government in this that actually uses there brains. They even condemned Hamas recently over this War. What Israel should do is dismantle most settlements (not all, some are covered under the proposed land swap deal the PLO agreed to) and make East Jerusalem a UN city, because Israel won't give that up unless something like that happens. Then use this new found partnership to stop the rocket attacks on Israel soil and work together as neighboring countries should. Blame all around.

 

[Aaron]

We were discussing the Gaza War going on, no the West Bank. But I will answer this. Fatah is the only level headed Government in this that actually uses there brains. They even condemned Hamas recently over this War. What Israel should do is dismantle most settlements (not all, some are covered under the proposed land swap deal the PLO agreed to) and make East Jerusalem a UN city, because Israel won't give that up unless something like that happens. Then use this new found partnership to stop the rocket attacks on Israel soil and work together as neighboring countries should. Blame all around.

What does Israel get out of this? Stopping rocket attacks that do virtually no damage? No. Hamas isn't a credible threat to Israel, so they will continue the West Bank expansion, and continue to beat Gaza into the ground. They aren't going to come to any agreement until an outside party forces them to.

 

[ramuh]

What does Israel get out of this? Stopping rocket attacks that do virtually no damage? No. Hamas isn't a credible threat to Israel, so they will continue the West Bank expansion, and continue to beat Gaza into the ground. They aren't going to come to any agreement until an outside party forces them to.

That makes NO sense. DO you know how much each of those rocket attack take downs cost? It's not a firework that goes in the sky. Its a sophisticated expensive thing that has to block these attacks. I guess we could send the bill to Gaza since it originated there, or better yet the Unity Government is there the same Government now. Hamas is a credible threat to Israel. How quick we forgot that just a few short years ago Hamas was blowing up buses and Passovers. And I already said they will come to an arrangement. A peace will be had after it reaches a certain number. But you are right on the West Bank expansions. That is stupid.

 

[KtSlime]

That makes NO sense. DO you know how much each of those rocket attack take downs cost? It's not a firework that goes in the sky. Its a sophisticated expensive thing that has to block these attacks. I guess we could send the bill to Gaza since it originated there, or better yet the Unity Government is there the same Government now. Hamas is a credible threat to Israel. How quick we forgot that just a few short years ago Hamas was blowing up buses and Passovers. And I already said they will come to an arrangement. A peace will be had after it reaches a certain number. But you are right on the West Bank expansions. That is stupid.

Isn't that bill pretty much paid for by the US?

 

[Carcetti]

That makes NO sense. DO you know how much each of those rocket attack take downs cost? It

If there only was a rich country who'd pour huge amounts of aid money and war materiel into Israel to thelp support their war effort....

 

[ramuh]

Isn't that bill pretty much paid for by the US?

Ya sure is. I think they have a 74 percent share work thing where 74 percent of all work has to be done in the US.

They also will be paying for Gaza Reconstruction/rocket refill.

 

[RustyNails]

So in essence your saying that it's out of desperation? Didn't they just joined Fatah in a unity government? You know Hamas would never relinquish that. Maybe if there did this cycle wouldn't have happen but maybe something at the UN would have. (State recognition). As long as Hamas agreed to see Israel as a state and not something that needs to be destroyed.

Out of desperation, yes. The unity government was their worst nightmare. Israel tried to sabotage the reconciliation deal and even had spies in Fatah. One of the goals for Netanyahu is to break up the unity deal, but so far it is holding, which means Netanyahu will look like a moron to his right wing base. This is what Hamas said on July 12th, after the military operation started:

“The reconciliation government will not be dismantled and Hamas has no intention of returning to a divided Gaza Strip and West Bank, or to a split in the two main political movements,” said the official, who asked not to be named. “When Israel attacked our people in the West Bank we could not remain silent. We had to show we’re one people and one nation and must protect our people,” he said.

When asked whether this should be at the cost of Gazans' lives he replied:

"You think we don't thirst to live in peace and prosperity and not suffer? We didn't start this war, during which most of the casualties so far have been Palestinian citizens, including many children and women. The war was forced upon us, and we are protecting ourselves."

This is what Abbas said yesterday:

Hamas's position has been bolstered by support from Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, an opponent of the Islamists before agreeing a unity deal with them in April.

Abbas's PLO has said it agreed with Hamas's demands, which also include freeing Palestinian prisoners. He met Kerry in Ramallah on Wednesday.

and

In a televised speech after the meeting of the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah, Abbas again condemned the Israeli “aggression” on the Gaza Strip, saying its main goal was to “destroy our cause and thwart the reconciliation [with Hamas].”

So far it's good to see Palestinians smarting up and realizing what Israel really wants as one of it's military goals, the undermining of the unity, and not breaking it.

 

[badb0y]

We were discussing the Gaza War going on, no the West Bank. But I will answer this. Fatah is the only level headed Government in this that actually uses there brains. They even condemned Hamas recently over this War. What Israel should do is dismantle most settlements (not all, some are covered under the proposed land swap deal the PLO agreed to) and make East Jerusalem a UN city, because Israel won't give that up unless something like that happens. Then use this new found partnership to stop the rocket attacks on Israel soil and work together as neighboring countries should. Blame all around.

The problem is that Israel hasn't shown that it is willing to cooperate even when the Palestinians are cooperating in West Bank. That gives Hamas a lot more credibility in the Gaza strip and in the eyes of Palestinians legitimizes Hamas and it's actions. If you want to blow out the knees of Hamas' support, prove to the Palestinians that you are willing to work with them and Hamas' support will drop.

 

[Aaron]

That makes NO sense. DO you know how much each of those rocket attack take downs cost? It's not a firework that goes in the sky. Its a sophisticated expensive thing that has to block these attacks. I guess we could send the bill to Gaza since it originated there, or better yet the Unity Government is there the same Government now. Hamas is a credible threat to Israel. How quick we forgot that just a few short years ago Hamas was blowing up buses and Passovers. And I already said they will come to an arrangement. A peace will be had after it reaches a certain number. But you are right on the West Bank expansions. That is stupid.

The rockets have only killed 28 since 2001. The Iron Dome only went up in 2011. Hamas rockets have not been a significant threat. Israel doesn't appear to be concerned with the cost when they know that by breaking multiple cease fires they encourage such attacks. If Israel was interested in making a peaceful arrangment, they would have kept their side of those bargains in the past. They haven't. Judging by their past actions, Israel will agree to a cease fire after they have caused sufficient damage, and break it again in a few years to start the cycle over.

 

[KtSlime]

Ya sure is. I think they have a 74 percent share work thing where 74 percent of all work has to be done in the US.

They also will be paying for Gaza Reconstruction/rocket refill.

Then cost shouldn't be a huge factor. For the administration I'm sure the cost is justifiable as that's how they get re-elected. Just like Hamas keeps in power by using some of their resources that they receive from International community by smuggling in goods that are hard to get.

Everyone in power has something to gain by the deaths of Palestinians in Gaza, and until that changes, this sort of thing will remain the status quo.

 

[Vast.]

It pisses Israeli defenders off so much when you bring context into the discussion and provide any background longer than a few weeks into their absurd claims of self-defense.

 

[KingK]

Why do people think people in Palestine should be content by anything but total freedom? Would Americans be happy if they were told that they have to stop all their trades, all their manufacturing facilities, everything, but instead they will be given food and shelter?

What I meant is that I'd probably be OK with those as conditions for a ceasefire for this current violence, not as some permanent peace deal. My ideal solution for an endgame peace is a single state; a true liberal democracy (not a Jewish state/theocracy) with universal suffrage for Arabs and Jews and equal rights for all. Of course, the Israeli government would burn to the ground before that happens, so pragmatically I support the standard two-state solution largely following the '67 borders.

We were discussing the Gaza War going on, no the West Bank. But I will answer this. Fatah is the only level headed Government in this that actually uses there brains. They even condemned Hamas recently over this War. What Israel should do is dismantle most settlements (not all, some are covered under the proposed land swap deal the PLO agreed to) and make East Jerusalem a UN city, because Israel won't give that up unless something like that happens. Then use this new found partnership to stop the rocket attacks on Israel soil and work together as neighboring countries should. Blame all around.

See, I agree with all of this, particularly the bolded. And while there are factions in Israel that would be open to such an arrangement, the current government has proven it has no interest in peace, and it doesn't seem like the Left has any path to a majority in the foreseeable future. If anything, Israel is taking a turn even harder to the right. It's extremely frustrating, and I don't see any way for it to change until we (the USA) stop supporting Israel 100%, unconditionally. We are currently shielding them from any and all international pressure to legitimately seek peace with our unyielding support. From the Israeli government's point of view, they are 'winning' right now, and until outside pressure (sanctions or whatever) gives them reason to change course and seek reconciliation with reasonable parties like Fatah, I don't see them doing so. Instead they'll just keep on expanding their territory and killing/displacing Palestinians with impunity.

 

[Orenhy]

It pisses Israeli defenders off so much when you bring context into the discussion and provide any background longer than a few weeks into their absurd claims of self-defense.

Non of which you do in your post, context? Background?
Thanks for sharing.

 

[Kettch]

You know there's an issue when innocent civilians would rather face terrorist rockets than precision air strikes.

 

[Dopus]

Non of which you do in your post, context? Background?
Thanks for sharing.

Breaking of ceasefires, breaking of truces, total control of Gaza, treatment of moderates, how Abbas has been made to look like a traitor, refusal to talk directly with Hamas, refusal to come to any real agreement, settlement building, stealing of land, the general treatment of Palestinians, the wall, destruction of property, destruction of homes from families of those associated with Hamas officials or those who've committed crimes against Israel, you know... those sorts of things.

 

[jakonovski]

BTW, since this round of ethnic cleansing was ostensibly triggered by the murders earlier this year, what has Israel done to investigate them?

 

[Orenhy]

Breaking of ceasefires, breaking of truces, total control of Gaza, treatment of moderates, how Abbas has been made to look like a traitor, refusal to talk directly with Hamas, refusal to come to any real agreement, settlement building, stealing of land, the general treatment of Palestinians, the wall, destruction of property, destruction of homes from families of those associated with Hamas officials or those who've committed crimes against Israel, you know... those sorts of things.

You are just spewing general claims, still no context or background, i was criticising him, not his point.

In many of my posts i defend idf vs many silly claims posted by people here which are either lies, misconceptions, un knowledgable, and for the most part, naive, feel free to browse back and see.
If people want to discuss the PA israel conflict, ill be happy to add in my knowledge and view, but this is not the right thread, blaming games are relevant post conflict/war not mid, all they do now is skew the focus from the point and its resolution.

 

[Zen]

But the intent is still the intent. Just because they 'maybe' don't want to hit a terminal at the airport or a residential building doesn't excuse that it's blindly firing on the other side in hopes for damage.. any damage.

I would not be surprised if the intent did vary some from individual to individual. It is practically symbolic at this point.

 

[Razgreez]

You are just spewing general claims, still no context or background, i was criticising him, not his point.

In many of my posts i defend idf vs many silly claims posted by people here which are either lies, misconceptions, un knowledgable, and for the most part, naive, feel free to browse back and see.
If people want to discuss the PA israel conflict, ill be happy to add in my knowledge and view, but this is not the right thread, blaming games are relevant post conflict/war not mid, all they do now is skew the focus from the point and its resolution.

There's no excuse for your intentional blindness. But once again here you go:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122299336&postcount=2708

 

[Orenhy]

There's no excuse for your intentional blindness. But once again here you go:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122299336&postcount=2708

My blindness towards what, you blame me for something but dont specify what? Or are you just saying anyone defending israel must be blind?
I commented on that post before, besides being biased as fuck and linking irrelevant posts and using general claims from them, it has no factual groundbase to it whatsoever. I am a scientist, i know how to review a text that claims to be ׳unbiased as possible' and that post is so biased that i can easily cAll you blind for not even checking stuff you stand behind.

 

[Yazan]

My blindness towards what, you blame me for something but dont specify what? Or are you just saying anyone defending israel must be blind?
I commented on that post before, besides being biased as fuck and linking irrelevant posts and using general claims from them, it has no factual groundbase to it whatsoever. I am a scientist, i know how to review a text that claims to be ׳unbiased as possible' and that post is so biased that i can easily cAll you blind for not even checking stuff you stand behind.

The new "I am an expert"? But I guess reality can be biased. You will never be satisfied unless you get the information you want to read and not what the actual facts are.

 

[Orenhy]

The new "I am an expert"? But I guess reality can be biased. You will never be satisfied unless you get the information you want to read and not what the actual facts are.

i like how you smear me instead of actually touching the point.

 

[Razgreez]

My blindness towards what, you blame me for something but dont specify what? Or are you just saying anyone defending israel must be blind?
I commented on that post before, besides being biased as fuck and linking irrelevant posts and using general claims from them, it has no factual groundbase to it whatsoever. I am a scientist, i know how to review a text that claims to be ׳unbiased as possible' and that post is so biased that i can easily cAll you blind for not even checking stuff you stand behind.

Calling you intentionally blind is not a statement of blame - a "scientist" like yourself should at least be able to understand that. And no anyone defending israel's actions is not blind, just a zionist supporter who, by extension, supports oppression - far worse in retrospect

You commented on the post? That's nice but a "scientist" like yourself would refute the post with credible evidence as opposed to passing it off as a complete farce just because you're a self-proclaimed "scientist".