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2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]
- Thread starter L0st Id3ntity
- Start date
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Yep. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28494081
Now is clear who doesn't want peace? Or we need more proof?
Hamas is right to stick to their guns on this, there is no point to go through all the blood and suffering unless they can get the blockade lifted. It's going to get a lot worse unfortunately.
At what point will the tide of US opinion swing against Israel? I hope there is a tipping point, but I fear it is never. At some point the EU will step up and do sanctions which will cause some grief for Israel economically, but not enough I'm afraid.
At what point will the tide of US opinion swing against Israel? I hope there is a tipping point, but I fear it is never. At some point the EU will step up and do sanctions which will cause some grief for Israel economically, but not enough I'm afraid.
Maninthemirror
Banned
When Jesus of the Evangelicals comes from the sky and kills everyone in Israel. That is why they want Israel to win against Palestinians, so they exist at the time of rapture so Jesus can rid of them. No really thats what the belief
The US is too entrenched politically for any changes. Short of the Israel assassinating a us official nothing will ever change
Not happening with the way the mainstream media is covering this, and the government's interests.
You're right that it's pretty close overall but the breakdowns are concerning. Older, more engaged, and more educated Americans pretty strongly favor Israel.
The education split was the one that really surprised me.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Calm before the storm
Israel is allowing a 12 hour humanitarian ceasefire before a possible expansion of the ground invasion. the ceasefire will run from 7 am to 7 pm
Israel is allowing a 12 hour humanitarian ceasefire before a possible expansion of the ground invasion. the ceasefire will run from 7 am to 7 pm
More like 12 hours to mobilize and prepare ground troops for an offensive without worrying about Hamas hitting back. The IDF isn't fooling anyone at this point...right?Calm before the storm
Israel is allowing a 12 hour humanitarian ceasefire before a possible expansion of the ground invasion. the ceasefire will run from 7 am to 7 pm
yeah... they have called 40k unit........ thing are going to get worse there, let's hope nothing bad happen
speculawyer
Member
Oh shit
Why do they bother? They don't get much of it and they'll lose more soldiers in close quarters combat.
This "war" (if it can be called that) is just nonsense. The Gazan militants obviously can't do much damage at all against Israel. Israel can't eliminate Hamas or other Gaza militants, and they certainly can't reduce the resentment and anger of Palestinians with weapons.
It's a complete waste of time on both sides.
Oh shit
Yup, this is it. Israel have tested the US and the international community. They've shelled children on a beach in broad daylight, they've bombed a hospital because rockets were being fired "near it" and now they've bombed a UN shelter while refusing to offer clear instructions of a corridor of escape for the civilians and aid workers.
Through all of that the international community, thanks to US pressure, has done nothing. Israel feels unstoppable and beyond scrutiny.
Netherscourge
Banned
How did this all start again?
No I don't mean World War II or Munich - I mean, this latest round of attacks between Israel and Hamas... how did it start again?
No I don't mean World War II or Munich - I mean, this latest round of attacks between Israel and Hamas... how did it start again?
I'm not even sure that would be enough. Israel stole US military secrets and sold them to the Chinese recently (and not for the first time) and there was literally zero uproar in the States over it.
here http://m.thenation.com/article/180783-five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked look for the 3) This Israeli operation, among others, was caused by rocket fire from Gaza.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Time wasted means more settlements.
3 Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and killed. Israel blamed Hamas (without any evidence, and it now seems extremely likely Hamas had nothing to do with it), and used the missing teens as an excuse to go on a rampage in the West Bank, under the pretext of looking to rescue them (although apparently the government already knew or highly suspected at the time that the teens were already dead). They detained and injured hundreds of Palestinians even remotely associated with Hamas without cause, and even killed some, I believe. Far-right Israeli citizens then captured a Palestinian teenager and burned him alive. This provoked the rocket fire from Hamas and the rest is history.
It's also worth noting that Hamas and Fatah (the peaceful Palestinian government in the West Bank) formed a unity government earlier this month, and Hamas had been making statements recently about accepting the '67 borders for a permanent peace. Israel's government was outraged at the formation of the unity government, and many suspect that the 3 missing teens were used as an excuse to provoke Hamas back towards violence and try to tear a wedge in the new unity government.
theignoramus
Member
Avigdor Leiberman style diplomacy
That the Palestinians elected a terrorist group that has publicly called for the murder and kidnapping of Israelis and has declared ALL Israelis as legitimate targets isn't really helping the Palestinians' case.
speculawyer
Member
But that is kinda crazy too. What's the end game of that? Just declare the West banks as part of Israel? Then they are officially an apartheid state.
They are painting themselves into a corner. They'll either have to cease being a Jewish state, give up many of the settlements to create a Palestinian state, or just be an outright non democratic apartheid state.
Jewish state, the land, or democracy . . . you can't have all 3.
NullPointer
Member
It does seem like a "pick two" scenario.
That is the purported endgame for many politicians on the far-right in Israel (including the Jewish Home party, which, as far as I can tell, is a Jewish supremacist theocratic party, who has a member serving as Minister of the Economy). The strategy is to do it slowly though, by expanding the settlements and displacing Palestinians until there are so many settlers there that they could annex the West Bank without threatening a Jewish majority in the demographics of the whole country.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
When you're dealing with a toxic cocktail of religious extremists and right wing nationalists, anything can be had.
And what if israel becomes an apartheid state? It's already occupying and building illegally on Palestinian territory. The Israeli government is already bombing and hundreds of children with no regard for what anyone has to say about it. Do we really think that Israel 'officially' becoming an apartheid state will somehow make things worse.
Hamas has quite publicly called for the kidnapping and murder of Israeli civilians. They have publicly declared ALL Israelis as legitimate targets. After news of the 3 kidnapped teenagers came out, Hamas praised the abductors.
I frankly don't give a fuck what their reasoning is; deliberately targeting innocent civilians is a surefire way to lose all my sympathy and support for your cause.
as almost everyone knows, except for some fucks burning synagogues in france right now, there is a difference between jews and israeli's. The refugee problem needs to addressed, certainly, peace needs to contain concessions from both sides, however putting in your charter:
Doesn't let you make a video about "but i have jewish friends" and get off the hook. Putting this shit in your charter and then claiming you want to negotiate is irresponsible. It would be a good faith effort to amend it, period.
Link to charter for those interested: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Maninthemirror
Banned
Yes Hamas is into terrorism , what about IDF
zer0blivion
Member
How do you reconcile this with what Israel's military is doing? Shelling children playing on a beach, shelling UN shelters and denying them any chance to evacuate, hospitals, schools, mosques, residential homes, cafes, etc..
Calm before the storm
Israel is allowing a 12 hour humanitarian ceasefire before a possible expansion of the ground invasion. the ceasefire will run from 7 am to 7 pm
this is like ramsey bolten giving theon greyjoy a shower or food to eat for a day then proceed to torture him again the next day and then ramsey saying he's a good guy for letting you shower!
NullPointer
Member
If Hamas was smart they'd just take cues from Israel and say all of their attacks are against military targets, but darn it they just keep missing.
based on the violations of international law both governments should be declared as illegitimate, every Israeli and Palestinian should be forced to compete in the worlds largest backgammon tournament, and the winner gets the whole thing. Solved.
Your argument is "but they do it too". Not good enough.
Reconcile it with what? I forgot the part where I was in any way defending the IDF's actions in my comment.
Is it really that hard to reply to a comment without first pigeonholing everything I say into the Pro-Israel/Pro-Palestine camp? It's like you first have to find out what "side" I'm in before deciding how you should feel about my comment.
speculawyer
Member
Yes, it will. They are rapidly losing Europe. They can whine about it being anti-semitism but if you are running an outright apartheid state, they will have lost all moral authority. Right now, they are able fudge things saying that they want a two state solution and they just can't quite get there because X, Y, or Z excuse. But they can't stay in that state forever.
And they are going to lose the USA more. If the USA gets more secular and the current isolationist bent persists, they may lose their current 110% backing from the USA. Look up the things that Ron and Rand Paul say at times (until they get slapped down or bite their tongues for support).
Israel is losing moral authority. I think they are being stupid about this all. They are holding these territories and yet bombing them, policing them, maintaining their borders, etc. If they control that territory, they should be protecting those people, not killing them. They kill lots of civilians and it makes them look awful.
Let the Palestinians have their own state and then if the Palestinians attack or allow random militants in their state to attack Israel, then Israel has more moral authority to fight back.
speculawyer
Member
But is that even possible? Don't the demographics work against them?
this is exactly my thinking too.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
No. An integrated Palestinian-Israeli state would have an Arabic Muslim majority, and the problem will only get worse over time as the Arabic population is growing at a faster rate. Even Likud does not want to maintain a permanent system of disenfranchisement - it's not feasible both economically and geopolitically. With the exception of the really scary and bloodthirsty hardliners, even most of the Israeli right perceives the two-state solution as an inevitable end-state. Their goal is simply to expand the settlements as far into Palestinian territory is possible to get more land, and devastate Palestine economically enough that the future Palestinian state struggle to be viable.
Sure but lets not play false equivalencies here. The Fuck you might be equivalent, in the long view, to a bloody near death last swing with a knife right before you get curb stomped.
Ethnic Cleansing, which some people seem to believe ISrael is not engaging in for some reason. There are limits to the means Israel can, and is willing, to employ however, which is why the Gaza strip portion is more or less stuck.
theignoramus
Member
Posting text from a decades old charter seems like some kind of pitiful attempt to shift focus away from the overwhelming amount of death and violence Israel has inflicted the last two weeks. And we now know that the hysteria that lead up this latest campaign was based on fabricated claims by the Netanyahu government that the Hamas leadership ordered the murder of the three Israeli teens.
Yeah, here are a couple of more instances of Hamas "missing" its target:
Hebrew University bombing
Passover Massacre
Café Moment bombing
BumblebeeCody
Member
Yeah I bet. They're protesting here in London to. Shit hits hard and I don't fault them when people are on the side of Israelis.
No, I doubt it. As far as I know, Arab population growth is higher than the Jewish. Then again, I doubt the ultra Orthodox right wingers would have a problem with an Apartheid system. The more mainstream right, like Likud, are probably just trying to maintain the status quo as long as possible so they can gradually expand settlements and shrink the territory any Palestinian state would get if they are ever forced to let them have one.
sindbadthesailor
Member
Somewhat old (Oct 2012) but still very relevant:
Israeli poll finds majority would be in favour of 'apartheid' policies
Wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were even higher today.
Israeli poll finds majority would be in favour of 'apartheid' policies
Wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were even higher today.
Neither is a 5 year old youtube video. The current conflict, viewed in a vacuum, is fairly cut and dry, but the arguments that paint Hamas as totally innocent (such as defending indiscriminate rocket attacks) are based on contexts that extend well beyond the current conflict, where things are not as clear.
Do you feel like it's responsible to refuse amendments to your charter of passages that specifically contradict the act of negotiating and then claim that you want to negotiate? This simple fact does not legitimize or legitimize either side, but it's one of many small changes in behavior that have to happen before there's a chance at a real settlement.
Shocking what happens to the mindset of a people when you combine dwelling on the persecution of your ancestors and 'chosen ones' rhetoric.
I would say the act of sitting down and negotiating is evidence enough of a willingness to negotiate. Asking to negotiate as much so as actually doing it, regardless of the demands of the other side. If it weren't the charter issue (and it's not like this charter is registered by a local notary public or something), Israel would demand they not ask for right or return. Or dismantlement of settlements.
It seems like whenever it comes time to negotiate, Israel insists that the negotiation be done and entirely in their favour before it even starts. Not that Hamas and Fatah haven't done the same, but Hamas and the PLO united on negotiating based on the 67 borders is already a HUGE shift towards reasonable terms and Israel won't even negotiate with Fatah anymore because of the unity government, which is a huge step back from the table on their side.
speculawyer
Member
I think this is the fault of USA. We've tolerated so much bullshit behavior (constant settlement building) that they have built up a sense of entitlement. We've nurtured this.
And it is kinda odd because this is the sort of thing that the right complains about nonstop when it comes welfare, unemployment, food stamps, etc. within the USA. But they are completely blind to this effect when it comes to Israel. But I guess that should not be surprising . . . there is a reason they call it blind-faith.
Edit: I just realized why the right is not bothered by this at all . . . they didn't care about the original Apartheid either. :-(
Holy Fuck! I would not have expected those numbers to be so high. Is the dark irony of a Jewish Supremacist State completely lost on these people?
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