2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]

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Dubbedinenglish said:
"Defend themselves" really doesn't make sense in the context. Better point is to question if the Palestinans have the right to resist oppression.
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No it still makes sense in context. Although you could ADD resisting oppresion. Since they are defending themselves, resisting oppression, etc etc.
 
Chumly said:
This has already been beaten to death. The REAL question is do Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
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You see, the problem is, there is no Palestine. There's Israel and then there's future Israel. I have given up all hope for the Palestinians and their hope for their own country, I just hope that these people can find peace in inevitable death or refuge.
 
maharg said:
How is resisting oppression not defending yourself? I think it's Israel's claim to defence that's lacking, given that they are engaged in an occupation of the people they're defending themselves from.
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That's of point of calling it oppression. You can't claim self defense as an oppressor. The Palestinan people are resisting Isreali oppression. Saying defending makes it sound more like a one-time thing.
 
inm8num2 said:
My post was satirical in response to this video:
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Sorry couldn't tell since its what many posters in this thread think although they conveniently ignore points like this.

I was hoping that some of the Israeli defenders could answer that question for us.
 
badb0y said:
You see, the problem is, there is no Palestine. There's Israel and then there's future Israel. I have given up all hope for the Palestinians and their hope for their own country, I just hope that these people can find peace in inevitable death or refuge.
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South African apartheid was more entrenched and difficult to dismantle than Israeli occupation today. But Israel would not be as dumb as South Africa and implement jim crow in plain sight, which was the catalyst needed that brought the government down.
 
C5hpBH5.jpg



So much for the beacon of democracy, progress and envy of all the middle east!!! israel YAY!

Where can i go for my payola? Dash27?
 
Dash27 said:
2+2 is "Why are you fighting?!" "Because they fired a thousand rockets into our country and try to kidnap our people and we have the right to defend ourselves"
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By killing a thousand plus people and displacing hundreds of thousands that mean them no harm? Even stand your ground laws don't let you go into other people's homes, and shoot them.
 
RustyNails said:
Of course CNN would bring in the biggest tool on earth to confirm their bias.
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Eh, I'm not saying it doesn't "confirm their bias" but at the same time he is a very unique individual considering his circumstances. I don't think it should be dismissed just because CNN is airing it.
 
Chumly said:
Sorry couldn't tell since its what many posters in this thread think.

I was hoping that some of the Israeli defenders could answer that question for us.
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No need to apologize. :)

It's difficult to wade through all the different arguments in here, though based on my cursory glances it seems like most people are in some agreement that Israel's actions are disproportionate to the notion of mere defense.

I was thinking of an analogy for this. I'll probably get torn apart, but whatever.

It reminds me of two kids fighting on a playground. One is Israel, one is Palestine. Let's ignore how the fight happened and just accept that it is happening. You could say that after a certain point one kid (Israel) is winning the fight. The other kid (Palestine) continues to fight back, but each time that happens the kid who's winning pounds him some more.

While the fight is going on all the kids on the playground are watching.

nxjIDP9.jpg
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The countries who abstained from the vote are kids who are watching somewhat disinterestedly. They see what's going on but don't feel like doing anything to stop the fight (or they just don't care at all). The countries who voted yes are upset by the fight and want to stop it, but the biggest kid on the playground (the US) stands between them and the two kids rolling around behind him. That big kid doesn't want anybody to interfere with the fight, so those kids upset by what they see are helpless to do anything. As a result, the fight just keeps going on and on and on.
 
TDLink said:
Eh, I'm not saying it doesn't "confirm their bias" but at the same time he is a very unique individual considering his circumstances. I don't think it should be dismissed just because CNN is airing it.
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Um, do you know who Mosab Yousef is, besides being son of Seikh Hasan Yousef?
 
Dash27 said:
Palestinian lives are being lost because of the current actions of Hamas. It's not paying a debt.
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Sorry, you can't do that. You can't shift blame when the IDF are dropped bombs on civilian homes and establishments where no rockets were fired from, where no proof of rockets were fired from, spurred on by a kidnapping that there's no evidence Hama committed. Just because you might have an irrational fear of someone doesn't give you the right to shoot them in the face. Especially when you've gone above and beyond to justify their incredibly ineffective response.
 
Dash27 said:
Palestinian lives are being lost because of the current actions of Hamas. It's not paying a debt.
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If the current action has nothing to do with the past actions of Hamas, but the 'current actions' of Hamas, then why did you bring it up? You can't have this both ways.

I'd also wonder how many Palestinian lives whatever you consider their 'current actions' to be are worth.
 
Israel appears to be like the spoiled rich brat in your class that keeps breaking the rules and the school administration is afraid to punish him because his father status.
 
Aaron said:
Sorry, you can't do that. You can't shift blame when the IDF are dropped bombs on civilian homes and establishments where no rockets were fired from, where no proof of rockets were fired from, spurred on by a kidnapping that there's no evidence Hama committed. Just because you might have an irrational fear of someone doesn't give you the right to shoot them in the face. Especially when you've gone above and beyond to justify their incredibly ineffective response.
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You're arguing along the same lines as others with "proportionate" it seems like. There's no shifting the blame on my end.

The stated goal of the IDF is to stop the rockets, again over a thousand of them, and destroy the tunnels. Now if you're buying the garbage that RustyNails posts that this is really ethnic cleansing and all the rest then you're welcome to that opinion but any discussion is pointless.

If you're saying the IDF is really horrifically bad at this because so many civilians die then that is reasonable. So my question then is what do you think the IDF can do that fits the goals of stopping the Hamas rockets and getting rid of the tunnels. And even disarming Hamas, although good luck there.
 
Dash27 said:
You're arguing along the same lines as others with "proportionate" it seems like. There's no shifting the blame on my end.

The stated goal of the IDF is to stop the rockets, again over a thousand of them, and destroy the tunnels. Now if you're buying the garbage that RustyNails posts that this is really ethnic cleansing and all the rest then you're welcome to that opinion but any discussion is pointless.

If you're saying the IDF is really horrifically bad at this because so many civilians die then that is reasonable. So my question then is what do you think the IDF can do that fits the goals of stopping the Hamas rockets and getting rid of the tunnels. And even disarming Hamas, although good luck there.
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So far IDF is doing a shit job of stopping the rockets. If IDF wants to stop the rockets so bad, why won't Israel accept 67 borders? Because after recognizing the 67 borders if Palestine lobs rockets into Israel for no reason whatsoever, then Israel will have the benefit of ENTIRE world coming to it's defense (myself included) against Palestine.
 
RustyNails said:
So far IDF is doing a shit job of stopping the rockets. If IDF wants to stop the rockets so bad, why won't Israel accept 67 borders? Because after recognizing the 67 borders if Palestine lobs rockets into Israel for no reason whatsoever, then Israel will have the benefit of ENTIRE world coming to it's defense (myself included) against Palestine.
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Based on your postings I have to feel that this is a sincere question. To paraphrase, why doesnt Israel ... after pulling out of Gaza and getting Hamas for it's reward... completely capitulate to all Hamas's demands and give up Jerusalem among other things, and just do a 'reset" to before pretty much every Arab nation nearby tried to destroy it? Yeah why dont they just do that?

I think it's a good signal that the way to get what you want is rockets and suicide bombs, and then next time they can fire rockets and demand what, all the Jews go home?

But hey they'd get you on their side. Which is almost as likely as Israel agreeing to it.

Sounds like a reasonable question.
 
Dash27 said:
You're arguing along the same lines as others with "proportionate" it seems like. There's no shifting the blame on my end.

The stated goal of the IDF is to stop the rockets, again over a thousand of them, and destroy the tunnels. Now if you're buying the garbage that RustyNails posts that this is really ethnic cleansing and all the rest then you're welcome to that opinion but any discussion is pointless.

If you're saying the IDF is really horrifically bad at this because so many civilians die then that is reasonable. So my question then is what do you think the IDF can do that fits the goals of stopping the Hamas rockets and getting rid of the tunnels. And even disarming Hamas, although good luck there.
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I don't think it's ethnic cleansing, but I also don't think the number of rockets sent at Israel justifies their response. What matters is how effective things are. Rocket attacks from Gaza have killed 28 people since 2001. The IDF have killed a whole order of magnitude more people just last week. It's in no way reasonable to just say IDF are bad at their jobs. They aren't in a position that should allow for the careless slaughter of civilians. This is the US stopping AQ by invading Iraq. It's not a mistake or misinformation. It's using an excuse of a stated goal to accomplish another objective. What the IDF's true objective is would be pure speculation, but their actions for the past number of years are doing nothing to halt the tunnels and rocket attacks. Let's not assume they're just stupid. One careless rocket could be a mistake. Not the campaign of terror and destruction that they have been waging.
 
Dash27 said:
You're arguing along the same lines as others with "proportionate" it seems like. There's no shifting the blame on my end.

The stated goal of the IDF is to stop the rockets, again over a thousand of them, and destroy the tunnels. Now if you're buying the garbage that RustyNails posts that this is really ethnic cleansing and all the rest then you're welcome to that opinion but any discussion is pointless.

If you're saying the IDF is really horrifically bad at this because so many civilians die then that is reasonable. So my question then is what do you think the IDF can do that fits the goals of stopping the Hamas rockets and getting rid of the tunnels. And even disarming Hamas, although good luck there.
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IDF can act like a real military organization and stop violating the laws of war. Leveling a city isn't being bad at their job, it's criminal intent.
 
This article by Norman Finkelstein is pretty interesting.

HRW Whitewashes Israel, The Law Supports Hamas: Some Reflections on Israel’s Latest Massacre
http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/18618/hrw-whitewashes-israel-the-law-supports-hamas_some

International law prohibits an occupying power from using force to suppress a struggle for self-determination, whereas it does not prohibit a people struggling for self-determination from using force.[1] The International Court of Justice (ICJ) stated in its 2004 advisory opinion that the Palestinian people’s “rights include the right to self-determination,” and that “Israel is bound to comply with its obligation to respect the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination.” Israel consequently has no legal right to use force to suppress the Palestinian self-determination struggle. Israel also cannot contend that, because this self-determination struggle unfolds within the framework of an occupation, it has the legal right, as the occupying power, to enforce the occupation so long as it endures.[2] In 1971, the ICJ ruled that South Africa’s occupation of Namibia had become illegal because it refused to carry out good-faith negotiations to end the occupation. It is beyond dispute that Israel has failed to carry out good-faith negotiations to end the occupation of Palestinian territory. On the Namibia precedent, the Israeli occupation is also illegal. The only “right” Israel can claim is—in the words of the United States at the time of the Namibia debate—“to withdraw its administration…immediately and thus put an end to its occupation.”[3]
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maharg said:
"We must defend ourselves from the people who've been under our thumbs for five decades!"
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Reminds me of this
anti-christian-bigotry-image-by-primate_bucket-on-photobucket_1248977694723.png


Dash27 said:
Palestinian lives are being lost because of the current actions of Hamas. It's not paying a debt.
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Hamas aren't the ones shelling Palestinian civillians. You can't pull the trigger and then avoid taking responsibility, their blood is on Israel's unrepentant hand. If you didn't want them to die you could... you know... NOT kill them. Failing that you could at least stop acting like they deserve it.
 
Aaron said:
I don't think it's ethnic cleansing, but I also don't think the number of rockets sent at Israel justifies their response. What matters is how effective things are. Rocket attacks from Gaza have killed 28 people since 2001. The IDF have killed a whole order of magnitude more people just last week. It's in no way reasonable to just say IDF are bad at their jobs. They aren't in a position that should allow for the careless slaughter of civilians. This is the US stopping AQ by invading Iraq. It's not a mistake or misinformation. It's using an excuse of a stated goal to accomplish another objective. What the IDF's true objective is would be pure speculation, but their actions for the past number of years are doing nothing to halt the tunnels and rocket attacks. Let's not assume they're just stupid. One careless rocket could be a mistake. Not the campaign of terror and destruction that they have been waging.
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So what is in it for the IDF then to do it this way. If you're suggesting they could get the rockets and tunnels without casualties then why not do it. Especially with Hamas making so much political advances from it. Makes no sense for them not to use whatever methods people seem to think they have and are ignoring in favor of random bombing

If some other military achieved something similar I'd be inclined to believe it was at least possible. But given Gazas high population, small footprint, and the fact that Hamas hides weapons in schools and churches, hides tunnel entrances in civilian buildings etc. Then I dont see how it's possible for this to be done.
 
Dash27 said:
Just like if you keep getting asked what 2+2 is. The answer doesn't change.



Based on just their say so or... ?

They get a cookie if it's true but that's hardly impressive considering who we are talking about.
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Even the former head of Shin bet has confirmed this. The interview is somewhere in this thread. I would say that it is monumentally impressive considering who we are talking about. Are you telling me that you are unaware of what exactly hamas has been doing leading up to this conflict?
 
RustyNails said:
Um, do you know who Mosab Yousef is, besides being son of Seikh Hasan Yousef?
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I'm aware that he was an undercover agent for Israel, but that doesn't invalidate his words or make them wrong. If anything it only strengthens the truth behind them. If you were growing up as the son of a founder of Hamas, and a potential inheritor to his leadership position, and indoctrinated from birth towards a certain belief...it says a lot to turn against that.
 
Dash27 said:
So what is in it for the IDF then to do it this way. If you're suggesting they could get the rockets and tunnels without casualties then why not do it. Especially with Hamas making so much political advances from it. Makes no sense for them not to use whatever methods people seem to think they have and are ignoring in favor of random bombing

If some other military achieved something similar I'd be inclined to believe it was at least possible. But given Gazas high population, small footprint, and the fact that Hamas hides weapons in schools and churches, hides tunnel entrances in civilian buildings etc. Then I dont see how it's possible for this to be done.
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Let's not start this again. Every time someone brings this up and is asked to qualify it they come up empty. If you have evidence that proves Hamas - as a matter of policy - is employing widespread use of hiding weapons in civilian occupied buildings please provide it.

If you are referring to the empty schools well then that hardly justifies the sort of civilian strikes we've seen.
 
zer0blivion said:
I decided to look him up.
FrbA1yL.jpg


Israeli policy of ethnic cleansing, destruction & death has been consistent.
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Max Blumenthal's key point is that this is the legacy of Israel's liberal establishment.

Guernica: How does the Israeli left regard the country’s rightward trend?

Max Blumenthal: It was not the right-wing Russians or the gun-toting settlers who carried out the Nakba. The Nakba is the legacy of Zionism’s putatively socialist wing. It was the grandfathers and mothers of the “enlightened public” of today’s Israel who literally drove tens of thousands of indigenous Palestinians into the sea in 1947-48 all along the Mediterranean coast, or who marched them at gunpoint to Ramallah. In the years leading up to the Nakba, during the 1920s and ’30s, Socialist Zionists implemented the project of Kibush Ha’avodah or the “Conquest of Labor,” establishing Jewish-only businesses and residential communities while organizing boycotts of Jewish businesses that hired Arabs. That meant attacking fellow Jews who didn’t uphold the same concept of separation and maintained business and community ties with Palestinian Arabs. So the legacy of the Zionist left of Tel Aviv is the Nakba, and the perpetuation of the Nakba is required to preserve Tel Aviv as one of the most homogenous cities on earth. There are fewer Arabs in Tel Aviv, one of the largest cities in the Middle East, than there are in Chicago, the largest city in the American Midwest. Just think about that for a second. How do you accomplish such a remarkable feat of social engineering without massive violence?
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Guernica: How does 1967 figure into the equation for liberal Zionists?

Max Blumenthal: The Zionist left talks about 1967 as the greatest disaster in the history of Israel, but they are not necessarily beating their chests over the suffering of Palestinians under the occupation. It certainly pains them to have to recognize that Israel has not proven to be a benevolent colonial overlord, that it has not lifted up the Palestinian standard of living as many left-wing Zionists believed they could when they captured the West Bank and Gaza. What really destroys the Zionist left about the legacy of 1967 is that it led to the rise of the religious nationalist right, which has gradually supplanted them as the captains of the Jewish state by vowing to complete the unfinished process that began in 1948. Another reason the Zionist left gets so upset about 1967 is that the whole project of Greater Israel threatens the ethnocracy they founded—that the possibility of annexing more Palestinian territory means the possible absorption of hundreds of thousands of demographic threats, of human contaminants to the ethnically pure Jewish state. And so they campaign endlessly for a two-state solution, or better yet, a one-and-a-half state solution, to correct the error they committed in 1967.
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http://www.guernicamag.com/interviews/to-zion-and-back/
 
Won't happen due to the dynamic of the great power veto, but UN peacekeepers need to go in and be the barricade between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

EDIT - Honestly, Israeli may as well just be labeled a theocracy government at this point.
 
Why doesn't Israel take responsibility for the destruction of Palestine? Israel can choose to not drop 400 tonnes of bombs.
 
Dash27 said:
Palestinian lives are being lost because of the current actions of Hamas. It's not paying a debt.
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I'm not sure how you can believe that. We have two Palestinian areas. One lives in perpetual war and one cooperates with Israel. Both are having their homes destroyed, both are being starved to death, both live in terrible conditions. How do you come to the conclusion that if it weren't for Hamas, Gaza would be enjoying a standard of living that hasn't been afforded to the West Bank?
 
The Palestinian people can be equated to the Tibetan people. Too bad nothing is being done about either.

EDIT - Corrected myself, as both are getting a lot of sympathy from western citizens, just not so much the nations to act upon it.
 
JK-Money said:
absurd they have the right to defend themselves....
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If it absolves such responsibility, absolutely, in that it is the Palestinian's fault for being a democracy, what is the argument against the complete destruction of Palestine? Well the Gaza strip at least.
 
kobashi100 said:
Is it true that the Argentinian president has said that any Citizen who fights for the Israeli Army in Gaza will lose citizenship?
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I haven't heard this. There are apparently dozens of Canadians serving in the IDF. I think our government should charge them under our new terrorism law, but our government is spineless.
 
zer0blivion said:
I decided to look him up.
FrbA1yL.jpg


Israeli policy of ethnic cleansing, destruction & death has been consistent.
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when I posted the thread about the racism and ethnic cleansing policies of Israeli govt. that has existed for the longest time, I and many others were ridiculed and lambasted by the GAF IDF.

Just like the blind unhitched support of US some folks just don't get it at how blatant Israel has been in wiping out Palestinians.
 
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