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This week's Man Of Steel LTTP (spoilers)
- Thread starter Manu
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Schweinehund
Member
Superman has killed Zod in the comics, just throwing that out there.
BadAss2961
Member
lmao
BFIB
Member
I like how everyone who hates on this movie mentions how OMGSUPESKILLEDZOD!
When its blatant that Zod will not stop until he fulfills his mission. It is what he was designed to do from birth. Supes tried to send him to the Phantom Zone and failed. He had no choice, and that was his lesson that no matter what, he cannot save everyone. He also destroyed any hope of ever rebuilding his race on top of it.
Much better than in Superman II when Superman reverses the device, which then forces Zod and his cronies to lose their power. So their powers are lost, they are human, and what does Supes do? Crushes Zod's hand, then sends him to his death by tossing him down a cliff. That's a lot more cold blooded than anything Cavill's Superman has done.
When its blatant that Zod will not stop until he fulfills his mission. It is what he was designed to do from birth. Supes tried to send him to the Phantom Zone and failed. He had no choice, and that was his lesson that no matter what, he cannot save everyone. He also destroyed any hope of ever rebuilding his race on top of it.
Much better than in Superman II when Superman reverses the device, which then forces Zod and his cronies to lose their power. So their powers are lost, they are human, and what does Supes do? Crushes Zod's hand, then sends him to his death by tossing him down a cliff. That's a lot more cold blooded than anything Cavill's Superman has done.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
So, seeing people namecheck Batman Begins in here. That's good. Because that SHOULD be getting namechecked, for all the positive and negative reasons that entails.
Structurally, it's the same. Goyer's admitted as much in an interview or two. He essentially took the template he used to build that screenplay with Nolan, and laid Superman over the top of it. Again - this is both a positive and a negative, for a couple reasons.
1) Batman isn't Superman, so what works for one character isn't just gonna work for another
2) Zack Snyder isn't Christopher Nolan, so he can't knock the dents out of Goyer's storytelling when they collaborate. He can just make them shiny.
However, I've found that people's opinions of Batman Begins improved over time, as people began to accept the movie for what it was instead of what it wasn't, and started to digest what this Batman was like. The Dark Knight put that in much finer focus, too, and caused revisits to Begins to play a little bit better as well - knowing what sort of Batman he became made it easier to either paper over or just outright accept the flaws in the Bruce Wayne/Batman characterization (and there were more than a few)
Will that happen with Man of Steel? I don't know. It's kinda happening? Opinion is softening on it, at least from those who have been hardline since the internet memes and glib narrative about Psycho Killer Superman started circulating. It depends a lot on the kind of Superman we get in Batman v. Superman Colon Dawn of Justice, too. It's possible a lot of the mistakes in characterization will get bondoed over with hindsight, too.
But really, the biggest "lessons" to be learned from Man of Steel is that you can't just re-skin Batman Begins as a Superman story, and you can't expect Zack Snyder to smooth out your stupid story the same way Christopher Nolan could.
Structurally, it's the same. Goyer's admitted as much in an interview or two. He essentially took the template he used to build that screenplay with Nolan, and laid Superman over the top of it. Again - this is both a positive and a negative, for a couple reasons.
1) Batman isn't Superman, so what works for one character isn't just gonna work for another
2) Zack Snyder isn't Christopher Nolan, so he can't knock the dents out of Goyer's storytelling when they collaborate. He can just make them shiny.
However, I've found that people's opinions of Batman Begins improved over time, as people began to accept the movie for what it was instead of what it wasn't, and started to digest what this Batman was like. The Dark Knight put that in much finer focus, too, and caused revisits to Begins to play a little bit better as well - knowing what sort of Batman he became made it easier to either paper over or just outright accept the flaws in the Bruce Wayne/Batman characterization (and there were more than a few)
Will that happen with Man of Steel? I don't know. It's kinda happening? Opinion is softening on it, at least from those who have been hardline since the internet memes and glib narrative about Psycho Killer Superman started circulating. It depends a lot on the kind of Superman we get in Batman v. Superman Colon Dawn of Justice, too. It's possible a lot of the mistakes in characterization will get bondoed over with hindsight, too.
But really, the biggest "lessons" to be learned from Man of Steel is that you can't just re-skin Batman Begins as a Superman story, and you can't expect Zack Snyder to smooth out your stupid story the same way Christopher Nolan could.
GuitarAtomik
Member
lolol
Ninja Scooter
Member
Right before he does it Zod says something about how he is never going to stop trying to kill and destroy the human race to Clark at that moment probably feels he has no choice but to put him down. Remember he's been on the job like 2 days so what the "core of the character" is hasn't been established yet . He's still growing into what he's going to ultimately become.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
That may be your opinion, but holy shit what an opinion.
Okay, now I just know you have horrible taste. ...
MoS was a ....good movie. I was terribly disappointed in it at first, and I still am, but it's not a bad movie. It's just a bad Superman movie.
Things I loved about it:
- the cast
- the music
- the effects were great
- Clark's first flight
- the new suit, actually all of the suits
- the Smallville fight, Holy Shit
- Faora, OMG
Things I hate about it:
- Pa Kent was written completely wrong, WTF
- the story was good at parts but terrible overall
- tornado scene, makes me livid mad just thinking about it
- although the fights were technically awesome, the horrid script made them all feel empty and boring, no tension at all
- the destruction of Metropolis. The world engine tears the city apart while Superman is halfway around the world saving a deserted bay from destruction???
- collateral damage combined with Clark seeming to not care, WTF
- why so grey? dull and lifeless color tones
- almost zero humor, at all
- Lois possessing teleportation skills
- Supers comes across as more of a threat to humanity than a savior
He shot that purely for trailer usage.
GentlemanCrow
Member
The script is the biggest issue. A lot of dumb decisions and iffy exposition delivery.
Visually, the film looks very nice, when the camera isn't overly shaky.
I see a lot of care with the world building and production design. It has a big budget quality that I find the Marvel efforts often lack. They reached for a level of quality with the sets and costumes and created a very alien, tangible Krypton. This was obviously a preemptive reaction to having to live up to the Donner films in the mind's of the audience.
I liked the characters, what little we saw of them and wanted more scenes with them interacting, particularly at the Daily Planet. The suggestion that Perry is in on the secret is a dynamic that I find very pleasing. A group of co-workers keeping Clark's secret is something that I quite like.
Everything that caused the major complaints with MOS has been addressed for BVS. New writer, new DOP. I'm optimistic.
Visually, the film looks very nice, when the camera isn't overly shaky.
I see a lot of care with the world building and production design. It has a big budget quality that I find the Marvel efforts often lack. They reached for a level of quality with the sets and costumes and created a very alien, tangible Krypton. This was obviously a preemptive reaction to having to live up to the Donner films in the mind's of the audience.
I liked the characters, what little we saw of them and wanted more scenes with them interacting, particularly at the Daily Planet. The suggestion that Perry is in on the secret is a dynamic that I find very pleasing. A group of co-workers keeping Clark's secret is something that I quite like.
Everything that caused the major complaints with MOS has been addressed for BVS. New writer, new DOP. I'm optimistic.
What I liked about MoS the most is that it didn't take the easiest route,it was flawed, yes, but it STILL sparks debate and analysis, we have a LTTP each week! People might dislike it, but they will never forget it, contrary to other films in the genre for which it's almost impossible to remember a line from them. I vastly prefer a flawed but riskè approach to super hero movies.
I can't really wait for Batman vs Superman.
I can't really wait for Batman vs Superman.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's because Superman's been a staple for 75 years that the changes to his characterization in Man of Steel becomes such a discussion sparker for those who choose to reject the twists on his character as presented.
The two are absolutely intertwined.
This is, for the 25% of the audience that considers themselves as belonging to the religion of pop-culture, their "Last Temptation of Christ."
If that sounds silly, it should
It's because Superman's been a staple for 75 years that the changes to his characterization in Man of Steel becomes such a discussion sparker for those who choose to reject the twists on his character as presented.
The two are absolutely intertwined.
This is, for the 25% of the audience that considers themselves as belonging to the religion of pop-culture, their "Last Temptation of Christ."
If that sounds silly, it should
We want something new! What's this? We want the same thing we always get! This is just the same thing, give us something new!
ouroboros.png
brandonh83
Banned
Can't say I've ever really had that problem, especially in a movie about people that can zip around as fast as they do.
It's infinitely better than things like the Transformers movies.
I know that's not really a high bar, but there's far worse.
Indeed. I love the cinematography in man of steel though. It's a sight to behold.
thecouncil
Banned
I don't understand the love for Faora. She didn't do anything outside of saying a couple things that made absolutely no sense.
*raises hand* I'd go as far as saying it didn't even really look nice. The whole thing was pretty muted and dismal.
I'd actually like to see what Michael Bay would've done with this movie. At least it probably would've had color.
*raises hand* I'd go as far as saying it didn't even really look nice. The whole thing was pretty muted and dismal.
I'd actually like to see what Michael Bay would've done with this movie. At least it probably would've had color.
Mighty Chin
Banned
That wasn't Mandarin. That was someone posing as The Mandarin.
Sorta like Cavill's Superman posing as Superman.
When Superman crashes on that mountain learning to fly and he gets out of that crater, the look and expresion on his face is just incredible emotional on how he is thinking that he is failing but he looks up the sky at the sun and he is remembering Jor-El words and that fills his heart with strenght and the next thing we see is him scouring the fucking skies flying all proud and beautifull.
Haloid1177
Banned
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
She kicked ass. A lot of ass.
Eh, don't blame Cavill, he did good with what he had to work with. If MoS had a better script he would have made an awesome Superman instead of just a passable Superman.
Despite its issues I really love Man of Steel. My biggest gripe is it was written like they thought of a bunch of "cool" sequences and tried to mold them together.
The bar scene for example.
Clark tries to be good guy by stopping the trucker from harassing the waitress. Trucker pours beer on Clark then tries to shove him and instead ends up being the one pushed back. Out of anger, Clark trashes the guys truck.
I admit it, I laughed because Clark was petty and you don't see it much so I found it funny. Ultimately though, there was really no reason for it outside of showing Clark can be a dick. It didn't even make much sense because I'm pretty sure that kind of damage would not only be heard but noticed much earlier. No one came into the bar at some point and said, "hey, some guy is shoving giant logs into some guy's truck"?
Stuff like that bugged me but since I laughed I ignored it, lol.
The bar scene for example.
Clark tries to be good guy by stopping the trucker from harassing the waitress. Trucker pours beer on Clark then tries to shove him and instead ends up being the one pushed back. Out of anger, Clark trashes the guys truck.
I admit it, I laughed because Clark was petty and you don't see it much so I found it funny. Ultimately though, there was really no reason for it outside of showing Clark can be a dick. It didn't even make much sense because I'm pretty sure that kind of damage would not only be heard but noticed much earlier. No one came into the bar at some point and said, "hey, some guy is shoving giant logs into some guy's truck"?
Stuff like that bugged me but since I laughed I ignored it, lol.
GentlemanCrow
Member
I guess it's just going to come down to personal taste. I liked the muted 'real' palette. They took an art direction and ran with it. Bringing up Marvel again, I don't care for the visuals overall in those films. There isn't any art to the photography in those films. For example, in Avengers, it's very much evenly lit, studio lighting, bright sets and locations, lots of colour and little attempt to wow with interesting camera work outside of two sequences: The one shot of the team around New York and the upside down Loki Staff camera pull in the Helicarrier lab. And with the New York sequence, it's more just the thrill of seeing the team together doing cool stuff. With MOS, I could pause the film at any point and the shot would be interesting. They gave it a distinct visual style.
They tried to elevate the comic book story beyond a literal translate to the screen. The marvel films are shot like comic book films, I liked that MOS wasn't.
That said, I like the change in staff, bringing in the Watchmen guy will be interesting and different.
What? You mean stopping the other device on the other side of the planet that only he could reasonably get to in time.
ahahah +1
Death Metalist
Member
I enjoyed the movie and like but not love it. Don't know why people are angry over the movie, To be honest people can be angry over anything haha.
DAT FIGHT SCENES.
DAT FIGHT SCENES.
It basically proves that DBZ can in fact be done in live action.
The story was ok, the only bad parts where the father/tornado bit and Louis and Clark felt too rushed. I would have been happy with them just meeting in the first game and no real connection develops until the later movie.
Other than that fantastic movie. Maybe the intro was too long.
The story was ok, the only bad parts where the father/tornado bit and Louis and Clark felt too rushed. I would have been happy with them just meeting in the first game and no real connection develops until the later movie.
Other than that fantastic movie. Maybe the intro was too long.
Haloid1177
Banned
Snyder is the god of trailers right now. Don't think anyone does them better right now.
Mr. Poolman
Member
That is, because Marvel, unlike DC, is not embarrassed of their comic book origins, in fact, they embrace the silliness and just seem to have fun with the original material (see GotG).
BadAss2961
Member
lol.
Audiences walked away with that image of The Mandarin. You don't make an entire movie about one thing, then take it back in a short that barely anyone saw which may or may not be expanded upon.
Schweinehund
Member
agreed, besides, Ben Kingsley's Mandarin looked MUCH better than Guy Pearce's lolworthy overheated porridge form
Mighty Chin
Banned
Well there is a BIG difference one is Superman the greatest comic book character ever created and the other is Iron Man's Big Bad!
Which one is more egregious?
That was 50 years ago man.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
I loved Nolan's approach for the Batman movies, taking them into a darker more serious direction than the Marvel movies. It worked great for Batman.
Superman however needed to be a mix of Nolan's Batman and Marvel, some kind of middle ground. MoS was far, FAR too drab, dreary, emotionless and humorless. Even despite all of the great action scenes and fights MoS bordered on boring at times. Clark seemed too reserved, Pa Kent seemed overly fearful, the world felt cold, no one laughed, the only character with any real presence or emotion in the movie was Zod and it's a major reason why he practically stole the movie and why most viewers rallied more for him than for Superman.
Marvel does a great job of balancing humor with seriousness and it draws the audience in emotionally. Hell even any one of Nolan's Batman movies had more humor in them than MoS did.
I thought Man of Steel is such a meandering drab film with horrible pacing, editing, and script. I was bored with it and it was a pity cause i was really hyped for it. I love Ka-El. My favorite supes books are Birthright, Kingdom come, Action Comics #775 (what's so funny about truth, justice, and the american way), Secret Identity, and All Star Superman. I came in the theater hoping that the movie could capture just an ounce of the magic of Supes. I came out of the theater disappointed. I thought i liked it, but upon inspection, I started to hate it as much as The Dark Knight Rises (which had the same problems with editing and pacing). I didn't care for any of the characters at all as they were just flat or just had no personality aside from brooding. Nothing felt like they mattered. Decisions were made illogically. And the climatic fight had no tension. I was very disappointed with it. The funny thing is, I didn't care that Supes killed Zod or that the destruction probably killed hundreds of people. Those things didn't bother me. What bothered me was that everything was just handled so poorly within the context of the movie.
The action scenes were good though, and the destruction was crazy. Henry Cavil can be a great Superman if given a chance to BE Superman. Its like that quote from kingdom come, "but the moment you put the super before the man, that cost you your humanity." I felt that was what this movie was all focused on. The "super" (useless action scenes and such) but not the "man."
The action scenes were good though, and the destruction was crazy. Henry Cavil can be a great Superman if given a chance to BE Superman. Its like that quote from kingdom come, "but the moment you put the super before the man, that cost you your humanity." I felt that was what this movie was all focused on. The "super" (useless action scenes and such) but not the "man."
Mighty Chin
Banned
Oh and btw it was stated in the Movie that he was Trevor Slattery and he was posing as the Mandarin. The Short that no one saw just implied that there was a real Mandarin not too happy with Trevor.
I also liked the movie. Great cinematography, beautiful soundtrack, great actors. I liked that it was a gritty Superman movie where even Jesus-Man couldn't save everyone. But there are 2 stupid things about the movie: his uncle's death scene was absolutely stupid, and the fact that so many people died and the whole city got trashed because he didn't want to kill Zod.
GentlemanCrow
Member
It's not a case of being embarrassed of the comic book stuff. The leaked footage of BVS and past experience from Snyder's work shows that he'll follow a comic as much as he can, when he wants to. It about adapting material to make a film. Neither style is wrong it's just different approaches. I personally like when efforts are made to use a medium to adapt a story/characters in a way that is different from the source material. To me, Avengers feels like a comic made real. MOS is a film based on Comic characters. I feel there is more merit in the second.
Here's a question for you. How would the plot of The Avenger's be received if it had been just a comic? And flip that on MOS?
I think MOS brought something new to Superman for better or ill. I think Avenger's brought something new to movies, though I think what was delivered was quite shallow spectacle . Both boil down to big ass brawls but I feel like more moral issues were brought up in MOS and so there was more to it overall.
Again it's wrong of me to compare these two films as they are quite different, one bring a culmination of a set of films the other being an origin story and reaction to Marvel's success. Perhaps a better comparison would be MOS and Captain America: The First Avenger. But I really see no value in CA so I can't discuss that film without being bias.
They have way too much fun that end up with cringeworthy comedic shit like in IR3 and Avengers.
No thanks.
Baron Von Beans
Member
I loved this movie. I saw it a little differently than others, and I'll try to explain a little bit. The movie is called "Man of Steel", not "Superman". Why? Because the man we see in this movie, Kal-El, he is NOT Superman in this movie. He doesn't have *all* the qualifications that make up Supes normally. We get to see him get molded into what he will become. He didn't care much about peoples lives before, as you saw him trash a dudes truck, and in turn royally screw that dude over financially for a while. You saw him fight in a way that was directing combat int the city, not away from people. You saw the "snap". All things that Superman wouldn't do, because he knows the values of life. The battle that made him do what he did not want to do, and then the subsequent aftermath (that we don't see, but my assumption) of humans heralding his victory and saving of all of their lives shows him the missing links. It shows him what it means to weild that kind of power living amongst a world of people that will rely on him.
Something along those lines ^^. I don't feel I worded it too well, but still. I think "Superman" was even jokingly used one time at the end. I feel that the Supes we see in BvS will be a fairly different person regarding his mentality and actions.
Something along those lines ^^. I don't feel I worded it too well, but still. I think "Superman" was even jokingly used one time at the end. I feel that the Supes we see in BvS will be a fairly different person regarding his mentality and actions.
He is. He just stated his?
I loved a lot of things about this movie, but it wasn't perfect. The music was amazing, I love Hans Zimmer so much and the soundtrack for this movie was perfect. The worst part of the movie was the tornado scene, it was so stupid. Guy is all chill and shaking his head slowly, "No Clark I need to go back to my people now, sorry".
When Clark is learning to fly, that was amazing. I also absolutely loved the flashbacks from when he was a child, and everything seemed so scary to him. The soundtrack during those moments was fantastic. I disliked Lois Lane, her character in this movie felt like it could have been done better. The dialogue overall could have been looked over a couple of times more because some of it was pretty cringe worthy. Jor-El was really cool, I loved every scene he was in. Overall good movie, but it could have been better.
When Clark is learning to fly, that was amazing. I also absolutely loved the flashbacks from when he was a child, and everything seemed so scary to him. The soundtrack during those moments was fantastic. I disliked Lois Lane, her character in this movie felt like it could have been done better. The dialogue overall could have been looked over a couple of times more because some of it was pretty cringe worthy. Jor-El was really cool, I loved every scene he was in. Overall good movie, but it could have been better.
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