Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread XI: Where 90% correct equals 100% wrong

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Here are my updated roster predictions/expectations:

26mN4k.png

Takamaru being disconfirmed really threw me off... I replaced him with Dixie Kong (while it may be a long shot, after getting two Fire Emblem newcomers I believe there's a chance we may get both Dixie Kong and King K. Rool), but I'm not feeling very confident now about any newcomers other than Shulk and Chorus Kids. I'm also starting to worry about Mewtwo's chances of returning, and some other Brawl veterans, too. But this is my optimistic roster. Take away six characters (Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, Ridley, Mewtwo, Lucas, and Snake, specifically) and you have my absolute minimum expectation roster. Anything between that and the above roster is what I expect now.
Optimistic is a good way to describe this roster, but I'd be thrilled if it came true.
 
I'd probably replace Dixie with Ghirahim just because I believe there's actually something to that trophy theory from the smash direct.
 
I would agree with this if it somehow wasn't possible to please both sides. However, it is very easy to please both and clearly Sakurai doesn't care enough about one side to do that. Also this point is brought up literally every time this subject rear it's head. I think everyone here understands where his priorities are.

You are greatly overestimating how easy it is to please everyone. They do not have infinite time and infinite money. At some point they have to pick a direction to move in and make it as good as they can.

Also, for how much people love melee, I think it's easily the least accessible game in the franchise, for a lot of the reasons competitive players love it. Not being able to grab the edge backwards, no sweet spotting the ledges, the high speed of the game, and especially that old style of air dodging all make that game super intimidating to new players. Try watching someone who has never played smash bros before play melee and then brawl. Specifically, observe how many times they accidentally kill themselves. The difference is actually quite striking.

Competitive players criticized brawl for taking a lot of control away from players, but I think newcomers would probably report feeling much more in control of brawl, as counter-intuitive as that sounds.
 
Here are my updated roster predictions/expectations:

26mN4k.png


Takamaru being disconfirmed really threw me off... I replaced him with Dixie Kong (while it may be a long shot, after getting two Fire Emblem newcomers I believe there's a chance we may get both Dixie Kong and King K. Rool), but I'm not feeling very confident now about any newcomers other than Shulk and Chorus Kids. I'm also starting to worry about Mewtwo's chances of returning, and some other Brawl veterans, too. But this is my optimistic roster. Take away six characters (Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, Ridley, Mewtwo, Lucas, and Snake, specifically) and you have my absolute minimum expectation roster. Anything between that and the above roster is what I expect now.

nice! i like these choices.
 
Every one of the newcomers so far are relevant. And honestly even the ones I don't care too much for are fine because I know someone else out there is hyped to have them in.

I'd love to see an Advanced wars character or mayne some out there retro character but I'm not going to act like a spoiled brat if they don't appear.
 
I'd probably replace Dixie with Ghirahim just because I believe there's actually something to that trophy theory from the smash direct.
As much as I LOVE Ghirahim, I refuse to believe that we'd get a second Zelda villain over someone like Dixie Kong, especially not a one-off character like Ghirahim
who isn't even the main villain of his game
!
 
As much as I LOVE Ghirahim, I refuse to believe that we'd get a second Zelda villain, especially not a one-off one like Ghirahim
who isn't even the main villain of his game
!

Well if the theory is true then it has to be someone related to fi, I can't really think of many others, demise is a bit too close to ganondorf
probably because he is
for me.


I guess it could be impa.
 
There's absolutely no merit to the trophy "theory" yet. Most people were expecting Palutena and an Awakening character long before the Nintendo Direct.
 
You are greatly overestimating how easy it is to please everyone. They do not have infinite time and infinite money. At some point they have to pick a direction to move in and make it as good as they can.

Also, for how much people love melee, I think it's easily the least accessible game in the franchise, for a lot of the reasons competitive players love it. Not being able to grab the edge backwards, no sweet spotting the ledges, the high speed of the game, and especially that old style of air dodging all make that game super intimidating to new players. Try watching someone who has never played smash bros before play melee and then brawl. Specifically, observe how many times they accidentally kill themselves. The difference is actually quite striking.

Competitive players criticized brawl for taking a lot of control away from players, but I think newcomers would probably report feeling much more in control of brawl, as counter-intuitive as that sounds.

I think most people are fine with the way air dodges are now and I also think the ledge stuff would still be decent for competitive play if they didn't auto sweet spot but also kept the reverse ledge grabbing for casuals. Heck I don't even know a single person that called melee and 64 "too hard".
 
There's absolutely no merit to the trophy "theory" yet. Most people were expecting Palutena and an Awakening character long before the Nintendo Direct.

To be fair, people at Nintendo were claiming hidden messages in that direct. My initial thought was that all trophies listed were hints at characters. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Ghirahim was playable.
 
You are greatly overestimating how easy it is to please everyone. They do not have infinite time and infinite money. At some point they have to pick a direction to move in and make it as good as they can.

Also, for how much people love melee, I think it's easily the least accessible game in the franchise, for a lot of the reasons competitive players love it. Not being able to grab the edge backwards, no sweet spotting the ledges, the high speed of the game, and especially that old style of air dodging all make that game super intimidating to new players. Try watching someone who has never played smash bros before play melee and then brawl. Specifically, observe how many times they accidentally kill themselves. The difference is actually quite striking.

Competitive players criticized brawl for taking a lot of control away from players, but I think newcomers would probably report feeling much more in control of brawl, as counter-intuitive as that sounds.

I think he's more on par actually. I don't post here much, but in my life I've played Smash at two points. When I was 7, playing Smash 64 at my cousin's house, and then this past year in Japan. Starting out with 64 again every day (playing with a player who does tournaments), then into Melee, and finally into Project M (And occasionally Brawl if we were unlucky) every weekend.

This may be contrary to what I'm trying to prove, but from switching between Project M & Brawl, I noticed in insane distance in what I was capable of. I could actually win in Brawl against my friend (Again, I want to stress the difference in skill level. He plays every day every summer and at school. I've played once in 10 years) whereas in Project M I might be able to take a stock or two, maybe three if I was lucky. That didn't make me quit - that makes me want to get better and play more.

Finally, going back to Melee being difficult and turning away newcomers with that and how it relates to Smash 4 - I don't think that's accurate at all. If they are COMPLETELY new to Smash, they won't have anything to compare it too and most likely won't quit. If they AREN'T new, then they'll be playing against those of the same skill level if the ranking works (It's a ranking system problem if it doesn't), and at local bouts it's even easier to coordinate skills or have a good time.

All in all, a new Smash being difficult is completely meaningless to scaring away newcomers in my opinion. Comparing it to another genre, Halo, Halo 2 had HUGE emphasis on individual skill and was the biggest online titan of it's time on consoles, even with glitches in matchmaking that weren't used in competitive. Halo 3 deemphasized skill yes, but it also grew tremendously, including the competitive scene and advertising helped by that. Once the game switched away to less skillful additions in Halo Reach and 4, that was when the population started plummeting.

Also, one last thing for thought. Games balanced at the highest level are fun and work for everyone. Examples of this being Dota 2 and (to a lesser extent since the patches are more often), League of Legends. Everyone's happy this way - the competitive players have a game they love and that works for them, while the more casual players have a game that works just as well and the perceived "imbalances" don't actually come into play at their level.
 
Personally I'm not expecting outside the remaining 11 veterans (cutting Snake and PKMN Trainer) and 2 newcomers so we get a nice 5 x 10 grid, with 49 characters and the random box. Hopefully those two newcomers are Shulk and Marshall. :P
 
ghirahim will never be playable

As someone who loves SS to death, I agree with this.

But then again, that whole "literally anything could happen" thing kicks in and I have to disagree on principle.

I feel pretty good on Zelda characters though. I really don't need any more representation there.
 
I think he's more on par actually. I don't post here much, but in my life I've played Smash at two points. When I was 7, playing Smash 64 at my cousin's house, and then this past year in Japan. Starting out with 64 again every day (playing with a player who does tournaments), then into Melee, and finally into Project M (And occasionally Brawl if we were unlucky) every weekend.

This may be contrary to what I'm trying to prove, but from switching between Project M & Brawl, I noticed in insane distance in what I was capable of. I could actually win in Brawl against my friend (Again, I want to stress the difference in skill level. He plays every day every summer and at school. I've played once in 10 years) whereas in Project M I might be able to take a stock or two, maybe three if I was lucky. That didn't make me quit - that makes me want to get better and play more.

Finally, going back to Melee being difficult and turning away newcomers with that and how it relates to Smash 4 - I don't think that's accurate at all. If they are COMPLETELY new to Smash, they won't have anything to compare it too and most likely won't quit. If they AREN'T new, then they'll be playing against those of the same skill level if the ranking works (It's a ranking system problem if it doesn't), and at local bouts it's even easier to coordinate skills or have a good time.

All in all, a new Smash being difficult is completely meaningless to scaring away newcomers in my opinion. Comparing it to another genre, Halo, Halo 2 had HUGE emphasis on individual skill and was the biggest online titan of it's time on consoles, even with glitches in matchmaking that weren't used in competitive. Halo 3 deemphasized skill yes, but it also grew tremendously, including the competitive scene and advertising helped by that. Once the game switched away to less skillful additions in Halo Reach and 4, that was when the population started plummeting.

I definitely agree that project m and melee allow for the more skilled player to win more often, but that's not necessarily what would be most fun for a beginner, regardless of what they might SAY they want. Playtest data is more valuable than player feedback by a lot.

Wizards of the coast follows a "60/40 rule" for balancing magic the gathering which basically means that a more skilled player should win about 60% of their matches against a less skilled player. This seems crazy to people who want a highly competitive experience, but it ends up making the most people have the most amount of fun. As a fan of competitive smash bros, I would definitely prefer a game balanced more like street fighter, but I also can't really fault sakurai and his team for moving away from that style of game.

Smash 4 seems like it's doing a great job of splitting the difference though. Hopefully it'll please everyone instead of pleasing no one.
 
To be fair, people at Nintendo were claiming hidden messages in that direct. My initial thought was that all trophies listed were hints at characters. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Ghirahim was playable.
If Ghirahim is playable and Takamaru is an AT, I'm going to be so, so disappointed.
 
The only quasi-realistic character suggestions I consider worse than King K. Rool and Adam/Anthony from Other M is Bowser Jr. There is literally nothing appealing about him at all. I honestly don't get it :/ If you really wanted another Mario rep is that REALLY the avenue you would go?

I would agree with this if it somehow wasn't possible to please both sides. However, it is very easy to please both and clearly Sakurai doesn't care enough about one side to do that. Also this point is brought up literally every time this subject rear it's head. I think everyone here understands where his priorities are.

I say what I say because the word choice and tone used occasionally wants to apply a degree of contempt/incompetence to Sakurai et al. as well as a degree of victimhood to themselves that just isn't there. There's a difference between "doesn't care" and "has to take into account the tastes and preferences of groups of players who may want different/conflicting things out of a game", moreso than any other fighting game. He's gone on record as saying some casual players disliked certain aspects of Melee. He's gone on record about using double blind game testing and hearing their feedback. I do think its possible to please both sides but I don't agree that's its very easy.

I think most people are fine with the way air dodges are now and I also think the ledge stuff would still be decent for competitive play if they didn't auto sweet spot but also kept the reverse ledge grabbing for casuals. Heck I don't even know a single person that called melee and 64 "too hard".

This is another problem I see all the time in these sorts of conversations (not just for Smash but for any game really with big casual and competitive communities). Your (or my) anecdotal evidence DOES NOT trump the variety of ways major companies and developers have to garner feedback.

I want to be clear that I'm not trying to shit on your opinion and I'm even someone who preferred Melee physics. But you have to recognize how much narrower your perspective is versus the larger picture. I feel like a lot of people don't understand that or at least say things that suggest that they don't.

I see autobzooty is an MTG player and his posts echo a lot of my thoughts. I'm sure if kirblar posted in here he's be parroting a lot of the things I'm saying.
 
I constantly feel like the only person who enjoyed everything about brawl and love all three games in the series equally

I genuinely didn't mind Brawl at first but after going back and playing melee and then later trying to learn to play PM it was like a "Holy cow, I was missing so much!" Now brawl feels as sluggish, simple and campy as it always was.
 
I genuinely didn't mind Brawl at first but after going back and playing melee and then later trying to learn to play PM it was like a "Holy cow, I was missing so much!" Now brawl feels as sluggish, simple and campy as it always was.
Sort of in the same boat, though I still enjoy playing Brawl with friends. I just hope the future of Smash moves more towards Melee than Brawl.
 
The only quasi-realistic character suggestions I consider worse than King K. Rool and Adam/Anthony from Other M is Bowser Jr. There is literally nothing appealing about him at all. I honestly don't get it :/ If you really wanted another Mario rep is that REALLY the avenue you would go?



I say what I say because the word choice and tone used occasionally wants to apply a degree of contempt/incompetence to Sakurai et al. as well as a degree of victimhood to themselves that just isn't there. There's a difference between "doesn't care" and "has to take into account the tastes and preferences of groups of players who may want different/conflicting things out of a game", moreso than any other fighting game. He's gone on record as saying some casual players disliked certain aspects of Melee. He's gone on record about using double blind game testing and hearing their feedback. I do think its possible to please both sides but I don't agree that's its very easy.



This is another problem I see all the time in these sorts of conversations (not just for Smash but for any game really with big casual and competitive communities). Your (or my) anecdotal evidence DOES NOT trump the variety of ways major companies and developers have to garner feedback.

I want to be clear that I'm not trying to shit on your opinion and I'm even someone who preferred Melee physics. But you have to recognize how much narrower your perspective is versus the larger picture. I feel like a lot of people don't understand that or at least say things that suggest that they don't.

I see autobzooty is an MTG player and his posts echo a lot of my thoughts. I'm sure if kirblar posted in here he's be parroting a lot of the things I'm saying.

I honestly want to ask you how you know the focus testing results? Is it really based on play testing comparing different styles? Maybe It is or maybe Sakurai really does dislike competive players as much as the conspiracies say? How the heck to do you know?

You don't know. That's why this discussion is happening.
 
I constantly feel like the only person who enjoyed everything about brawl and love all three games in the series equally

I'm there with you, too. However I don't play at a high level and don't have as much of a sense of gameplay balance when I do play. So....yeah. :)
 
Anyone read the newest leaks from Smashboards?

>Dixie
>Shulk
>Chorus Men
>Ridley
>Bowser Jr (riding in the mini clown car, 7 koopa kid alts)
>Mewtwo
>Duck Hunt Dog

Mentions of Ice Climbers, Snake, Wolf and Lucas being cut. Maybe saved for DLC?
They also theorize a Zelda newcomer. For context, I think this was compiled from I think three "leaks" and they put two and two together from their different builds apparently. The only credential one source showed was two alt colors posted on June 6 they recreated as a Brawl mod that could be found in the E3 build (Blue/Pink Mario and Green/Blue Bowser). And then all of a sudden this same list pops up. I'm all for any "leaks" that includes Dixie Kong at the very least.
 
I forgot about the PotD last night! I am happy for a real Paper Mario stage. I wonder if we could get a unique version for Wii U since Paper Mario is also on consoles.
 
I think it's around that time to do Emceegamr's will.

BOY HOWDY, DO I EVER LIKE THAT THERE SNAKE FELLA. WOULD BE AWFUL IF HE KEPT KEEPING ME WAITING.
 
Saw this on my feed, thought you guys would enjoy this

BtvzlSEIcAAaU16.jpg


Totally not me, I swear

I think it's around that time to do Emceegamr's will.

BOY HOWDY, DO I EVER LIKE THAT THERE SNAKE FELLA. WOULD BE AWFUL IF HE KEPT KEEPING ME WAITING.

Too early, the Paper Mario talk started around an hour before the PoTD went up
 
AND YES Saturn Valley! My guess is that they'lll use the Mother 3 variant for the 3DS and stick with an Earthbound stage for the Wii U.

That's what I'm anticipating, too. I don't think I could choose just one M3 location for a stage, though--they're all too good! :D

Here is my weekly waiting for Ness post.... =(

yf1HXBg.png

I'm right there with you, buddy. :(
That art is amazing, though!

http://www.zeldainformer.com/news/s...ut-wii-fit-trainer-and-smash-run#.U9gkQITdE3V Has anyone seen this, particularly the bit about WFT being controlled by the Board?

Sorry if old.

Nopenopenope. No mention of the Wii Fit Board in the article. Where did they even pull that from?

Sigh, same. Also, Lucas too.

We must be strong, my brethren. ;__;
 
I honestly want to ask you how you know the focus testing results? Is it really based on play testing comparing different styles? Maybe It is or maybe Sakurai really does dislike competive players as much as the conspiracies say? How the heck to do you know?

You don't know. That's why this discussion is happening.

I'm sorry but are you actually saying you think it is equally probable that Sakurai actively hates a segment of his player base as it is that he is trying to incorporate feedback from multiple sources that, as a consequence, have resulted in some changes that the minority of the player population doesn't like? You understand the difference right? I want to be clear if that's what you're actually saying because this post you just made is confusing the fuck out of me.
 
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