lastplayed
Member
Genetically most of the English population is indigenous (the humans that first arrived there). We tend to be enthusiastic adopters of language and culture though.
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Scottish Independence Referendum |OT| 18 September 2014 [Up: NO wins]
- Thread starter Ape Gone Insane
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Genetically most of the English population is indigenous (the humans that first arrived there). We tend to be enthusiastic adopters of language and culture though.
Don't be silly. Britain has been conquered and settled repeatedly for millennia.
http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/history.html
People continue to emigrate to the UK today, but in a much more civilised manner.
lastplayed
Member
That was the old theory yes, but there's little archaeological evidence to suggest the local population was replaced or wiped out. The native population adopted the ways of a very small amount of migrants. The genetic evidence backs this up.
do you have any links to any modern studies on this?
lastplayed
Member
Well just to focus on the Anglo-Saxon transition there's this article:
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/mythsofbritishancestry
Also one that seems to have more uncertainty:
http://www.academia.edu/2607635/Genetics_and_the_Anglo-Saxon_Invasion
In any case there's still a lot of work to be done to pin point down the exact numbers of migrants.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/mythsofbritishancestry
Also one that seems to have more uncertainty:
http://www.academia.edu/2607635/Genetics_and_the_Anglo-Saxon_Invasion
In any case there's still a lot of work to be done to pin point down the exact numbers of migrants.
StealthGoblin
Banned
They are a deterrent.
I'd advise all Scottish people to leave and save themselves. It's too late for us, you still have a chance.
Conservatives wouldn't be happy until every public service has been annihilated, sold and then twisted into a business ready to make mega profits on the great unwashed.
And with Labour pandering to the middle classes and forgetting their roots entirely, their is no political party to represent the working class anymore.
Flee, my Northern brothers. Don't be a hero!
Conservatives wouldn't be happy until every public service has been annihilated, sold and then twisted into a business ready to make mega profits on the great unwashed.
And with Labour pandering to the middle classes and forgetting their roots entirely, their is no political party to represent the working class anymore.
Flee, my Northern brothers. Don't be a hero!
Cheers, I'll look through that later.
This is the most recent study I've found http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-07/04/genetic-mapping-britain
There's no key to the map but I guess red = anglo saxon.
I don't really take a stance as someone who lives in England.
Would I like Scotland to stay? Yes. But only because it would feel weird for them to leave, regardless of anything else it would cause some upheaval. What do we do with our flag? Would the Country be renamed? How will our Olympic team function without the Scottish propping it up? Who will the Tories shit on once the Scottish are gone (Hint: Geordies, Brummies, Mancunians, and Scousers)
If they do go independent I hope it's a wake up call to the rest of the country as to how utterly poorly our government handles things, and I hope we can have a debate about how to restructure Parliament if/when the Scottish MPs leave.
Then again I also hope for tighter European integration in an effort to give use a European state that genuinely competes with US/Russia/China but that looks incredibly unlikely.
If they do go, well good on them, the SNP seems to have its head screwed on, hopefully they can maintain that.
Would I like Scotland to stay? Yes. But only because it would feel weird for them to leave, regardless of anything else it would cause some upheaval. What do we do with our flag? Would the Country be renamed? How will our Olympic team function without the Scottish propping it up? Who will the Tories shit on once the Scottish are gone (Hint: Geordies, Brummies, Mancunians, and Scousers)
If they do go independent I hope it's a wake up call to the rest of the country as to how utterly poorly our government handles things, and I hope we can have a debate about how to restructure Parliament if/when the Scottish MPs leave.
Then again I also hope for tighter European integration in an effort to give use a European state that genuinely competes with US/Russia/China but that looks incredibly unlikely.
If they do go, well good on them, the SNP seems to have its head screwed on, hopefully they can maintain that.
lastplayed
Member
It's quite frustrating really, because the last source I heard stated that no more than 10% of the population had Viking or Saxon DNA, but the one above claims half the participants had it. I'm no expert on genetics so not sure how reliable these studies are.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Rubbish. Voting to leave the UK is voting to leave its monetary system, and Scots should clearly understand that when they head to the polls in September. It's one of the most important parts of what they'll be voting on.
I'll again link you to the speech in which the Chancellor sets out that this is the case, and gives reasons why it is the case - here.
Independent Scotland could indeed use the pound because it's a freely tradable currency, but rUK taxpayers would not be willing to back the monetary system of a foreign sovereign country next door.
Nonsense. We propped up Ireland - using the Euro, not even Sterling - because we couldn't afford to have them fail. The idea that we would't do more for a Sterling using state even close to home is literally laugh-out-loud ludicrous.
Giddeon's a liar; more so he's lying on this issue and Scots shouldn't be scared by the implication of his lies.
The Librarian
Banned
Very interested in seeing the outcome of this.
CyclopsRock
Member
That's slightly different though, no? One of the reasons for the "propping up" of many of the Eurozone countries is precisely because they're Eurozone countries; They share a currency with the rest of the Eurozone, they can't lower the value of their currency to increase competitiveness and improve the value of domestic suppliers etc etc and having them default on their debts (again, they can't print money) would have been awful for the other Eurozone countries not because they'd have lost a potential trading partner (Though obviously that as well) but because of the impact it would have on the Euro.
That wouldn't be the case here if we're not actually in a currency union - Scotland's use of the pound (and Scotland's subsequent fate - and personally I don't think they'd "fail" at all but we're talking in hypotheticals here) would have significantly less of a fiscal impact on the rUK than an Irish "fail" would have on the Eurozone - or, more accurately, the impact on the pound and euro respectively. Obviously the trading problems would be greater for us, but that's still not a good enough reason for the UK's fiscal policy to have another country's fiscal needs play a role.
Ape Gone Insane
Member
Oh good, mods added a poll.
Ape Gone Insane
Member
When you go through all the facts, is a full privatisation of the NHS likely though?
That's exactly why people in the rest of the country are opposed to a currency union surely? To avoid having to bail out a separate country. Obviously we'd still have to bail out an independent Scotland on the verge of bankruptcy whatever currency it used, but I imagine the dangers and costs will be far higher for the UK if it used Sterling.
I don't get why Scottish nationalists are so desperate to keep the pound when one of their main arguments for independence is that UK fiscal policy is entirely based on what's best for London. How will independence help that if you're going to carry on being tied to what the Bank of England decides anyway?
I'd have said no and that it was all hyperbole, until they sold the Royal Mail (and for 1bn under what it was valued). I wasn't around in the 70's, but I do know that even Thatcher considered that going too far.
Whether we're talking about 'full' privatisation or not though, I think their should never be an opportunity to make a few quid off healthcare. And I also know that every member of the Tory frontbench has a vested interest in ensuring the NHS is taken apart. Privatisation plans that were started under Nu-Labour was one of the worst things they ever did.
I'm generally very against selling off government services, but I didn't really care Royal Mail was sold off. We don't need to guarantee cheap and "fast" letter sending when everyone uses email for everything anyway. In the 21st century Royal Mail is doomed to become a package delivery service for Amazon and the like, and there's no reason that needs to be handled by the government in my opinion. That said the way it was sold off for dirt cheap was obviously a complete shambles.
gutter_trash
Banned
this is true for smaller countries who got fucked up the ass by adopting the EuroFor those of you who don't know, these idiot separatists think they can walk away from the UK and still take advantage of using it's institutions...such as keeping the pound sterling as their currency and having the rest of the UK act as guarantor to fund their Scandinavian lifestyle fantasies, at the same time as lowering corporation tax to attract big business away from the UK.
Lol..you won't, not by a long shot:
..and you won't have any control over sterling if you leave...
QuicheFontaine
Member
What sort of comparison is this? We're not in a currency union with Ireland. A bail-out is a completely different scenario.
I don't expect an independent Scotland to need bailing out (well, I don't expect an independent Scotland, full stop). If it hypothetically did (and again, I'm not saying that it's at all likely that it would), the rUK would undoubtably have an important role to play there, but that doesn't mean that the arrangement will be a currency union on Scotland's leaving - it won't be.
You're missing the point a bit. We have *one* example of a country leaving the UK - Ireland. Before it happened the rhetoric from Westminster (indeed the violence) was strong. After it happened Westminster and Dublin rapidly agreed a large number of reciprocal, mutually beneficial arrangements.
It's all posturing. When the Scots vote for themselves, the tone will change in Westminster.
I suppose you're right in that sense, and I never thought about it that way.
I just dislike the idea that everything has a price tag though. I don't trust the Conservatives (and don't think anyone should. They don't serve anybody, not even their voters. Everything they do is for their own benefit, and don't be fooled otherwise.) and I hate that they all stand to gain the most from taking services apart and selling off the chunks.
CyclopsRock
Member
Ah, was unsure about what you meant, but when you said "popped up by the Euro" I assumed you meant its recent malaise, not that directly after its independence from the UK. And I'm sure we'll have plenty of mutually beneficial arrangements, just like - as you say - we do with Ireland. I just don't think a currency union will be one of them.
You'll be stuck with the Tories, and the NHS will continue to get fucked even /with/ Scotland.
Not true. Looking at past elections without Scotland there'd be very little change. We'd have a small Tory majority in 2010 rather than a coalition (or minority government), but that's it.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Losing those Scottish constituencies would hurt Labour more than any other party in Westminster, that's significant and its an unequivocal fact.
Perhaps. But I'd rather Labour won in England by getting their policies right than relying on Scottish votes.
Ape Gone Insane
Member
If we are to move with the times, the BBC needs to be privatised as well.
speculawyer
Member
UKIP is against independence? Seems a bit paradoxical.
Nah, I think the BBC still provides a big social benefit to the country. Plus unlike Royal Mail they've definitely managed to stay relevant technologically.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
Soon after being elected, Thatcher wanted the NHS to eventually be replaced by a US-style system.
ScotGAF, is it just me, or does every single non-Scot you meet ask you how you're voting within about 10 seconds of speaking to them?
I'm not Scottish or even British and have never been to Scotland (going next Monday though!), but I'm following this closely out of sheer curiosity.
If Scotland were to vote for independence, what would be more likely: a) keep using the pound, b) join the eurozone, c) make their own currency (and for completeness d) use another preexisting currency) ?
I feel the only two viable choices are a) and b) and give the edge to the pound, but I wouldn't be shocked if an independent Scotland were to use the euro. It wouldn't be that isolated either, Ireland uses it too.
If Scotland were to vote for independence, what would be more likely: a) keep using the pound, b) join the eurozone, c) make their own currency (and for completeness d) use another preexisting currency) ?
I feel the only two viable choices are a) and b) and give the edge to the pound, but I wouldn't be shocked if an independent Scotland were to use the euro. It wouldn't be that isolated either, Ireland uses it too.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Well, the name UKIP is a bit of a misnomer.
A better name would be DERP, Degenerate English Reactionaries Party
No one knows. If they use the pound there's the question of whether they just use it without any control over the currency (like some countries use the US$) or enter an agreement with the rest of the UK to form a sort of 'Stirling Zone' and retain some input over the currency.
The SNP insists the latter will happen, but all 3 big Westminster parties have stated outright they will enter no such agreement. Nationalists insist they're lying. It would probably be a large and contentious part of negotiations if a Yes vote happened.
Pretty sure the idea of using the Euro is pretty unpopular given how many small economies in the Eurozone did during the economic crisis.
They want to keep UK independent
They take any default hater position.
RandyBobandy
Banned
I'd vote yes if I were Scottish, but alas I'm not
Black Republican
Member
even if it does happen, will the effect happen immediately or not for a couple of years?
Independence from what the party perceives as an overbearing European Union.
Probably a few years if Scotland votes yes. The two nations would have to consider what happens to Scottish representatives in the national legislature (a general election has been conveniently scheduled for the year after the referendum!), the removal or division of military and other government assets, a potential currency union, the potential sharing of the BBC, the national public broadcasting service, division of existing public debt...
The SNP's plan is for independence on the 24th of March 2016 if there's a Yes vote.
I have heard it could take longer than that to sort it all out though, so who knows.
BertramCooper
Banned
Oh cool, a poll.
I'm sympathetic to the cause, but if I were Scottish, I would definitely vote against it, chiefly because of the currency issues.
I'm sympathetic to the cause, but if I were Scottish, I would definitely vote against it, chiefly because of the currency issues.
cjp
Member
How, exactly?
They oppose the UK being in a union that has become political, which was never the intention and was not the reason for joining. They are also vehemently against the stance of refusing the British public a referendum on that membership. The right to choose.
While UKIP may not want Scotland to leave the UK, I'm sure it fully supports giving the Scottish people the choice.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
I want Scotland to stay beause I fear, without them, the tory party will remain in power and leap further to the right. As a welshman, I feel like I have more in common with the Scottish electorate than the English one and it'd be beneficial to me (selfishly) for the union to remain as it is.
Scotland and the rUK would make a pretty great currency union. Highly interdependent economies, similar spending and saving patterns, there is a free movement of people across the boarder, speak the same language and have similar political and economic institutions. The only other requirement is that Scotland and the rUK align fiscal policies. Any independent Scotland must accept that their tax and spend will always be tied to Westminster and the BoE since England controls the currency.
Im against independence for cultural/sentimental reasons but I dont really believe that Scotland will struggle alone. Its just a shame that the political debate on the more practical consequences of independence has been so ambiguous.
Im against independence for cultural/sentimental reasons but I dont really believe that Scotland will struggle alone. Its just a shame that the political debate on the more practical consequences of independence has been so ambiguous.
QuicheFontaine
Member
But then why even bother?
If "independence" is the goal, surely they need their own currency?
Tax and Spend would need to be aligned. Both would have to spend and borrow within their limits but how the Scottish government spend their money is up to them (much like it is already) so yes - why even bother? especially if they get devo max as a minimum which looks likely.
I honestly think the economic arguments are all pretty marginal though. Ultimately its down to power and people wanting to be represented. The fact of the matter is that many Scottish (and English) people don't feel represented by their government and see political power far too centralised.
Im in favour of general devolution across the country, give NI,Scotland and Wales tax and spend powers, give English authorities power over their own tax and spend. Lets get all the regions competing and specializing as they see fit. No rational government is going to give up those power though. Heck, even the public voted against it re-City Mayors. But the idea that we need to completely split up the union to get this seems strange to me.
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