Israel attacks another UN school (19 dead, 126 injured)

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I don't get how the Israeli people can buy that all this is in any way making them safer. Israel is just breeding more ammunition for terrorism ad nauseum. How does it make any sense?

If Israel could rewind the clock, they should have tried winning Palestinian hearts and minds. Building schools and hospitals, not destroying them. In fact, POURING money into gaza and palestine, lifting people out of poverty, giving them and lifestyle such that Hamas could be ultimately marginalised. Hamas is strengthened by desperation and Israel is just making the Palestinians more and more desperate. Surely they could address Hamas in a more targetted way than this?

Or is it the case that Palestinians would hate Israel regardless and Hamas would continue to enjoy strong support if the Palestinians had great lives?
 
Dash27 said:
I dont think it's about vengeance and getting even. It's a land war and each side want's what it feels it deserves. The problem is that once any progress is made, the hard line radicals move to stop it. I'll bring up yet again Hamas starting a suicide bombing campaign after the Oslo accords in which both sides made the huge step at recognizing each other as legitimate.
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There was also the assassination of Rabin by a radical Israeli and the killings at the mosque of the Patriarchs. Hamas are a bunch of cunts, but they weren't the only ones who wanted to destroy what the accords had achieved. If you look at the time line, they may not have been the first to derail it either.
 
Obama doesn't like netanyahu, but were he to try to do anything it would be fucking over for him over here. Damn israel supporting morons.
 
kruis said:
Jerusalem Post article:



So Hamas militants store weapons and munition in schools and they fire at the IDF from schools. It fits right in with their pattern of hiding behind civilians to fight this war and using those civilian deaths as a propaganda tool.
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That is very interesting. But we must remain objective. There is propaganda on BOTH sides. The onus is on the winning party. It falls on Israel to stop offensive strikes. They should be the "bigger man" and take a stand for peace. The UN needs to step in and insist on the ceasefire.

It's 2014, and governments still believe in "complete annihilation" of the enemy, when history proves that making a friend of your enemy is much more lucrative. Blowing up schools isn't going to prevent future generations from being bitter and hateful.
 
linsivvi said:
I disagree. BBC and the Guardian are among the best of the mainstream media.
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The BBC are overwhelmingly pro-Israeli. The Guardian is pro-Israeli but walks a bit of a finer line. Of the UK papers only really the Independent could be called pro-Palestinian and that's more to do with some of their senior reporters and the editorial freedom they get rather than any editorial line.
 
"It's beyond belief in the 21st century that children, women and civilian men can be targeted.

"Palestinians have had every right taken from them, including the right to live. It's an abomination, a barbarity."

- Christopher Gunness, UNRWA, on Wednesday's bombing of a UN school in Gaza
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the ethnic cleansing of gaza must end
 
collige said:
It's a bit more complicated since the insurgents in question (Hamas) are also the closest thing to an actual government Gaza has, but yeah that's the general gist. Israel claims they don't "occupy" Gaza anymore because they pulled out their troops and illegal settlements, but they still control the airspace, water access, and border. See this image.
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Well what do the people of Gaza want? Do they want the Israelis or the Hamas or neither?
 
kayzai said:
This bombing has to be intentional!!!

You cannot have some of the most advanced targeting weaponry in the world and ever-watching drones AND the coordinates of UN schools.
And yet, blow children up at the beach, in their homes, in UN schools!!!, even hospitals daily.
I even saw a video where they shelled the paediatric section of a hospital with blood smears on incubators.

These guys have a long term plan...kill as many potential freedom fighters as tolerable by the US and European governments.
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Even smart bombs miss their targets. I'm sure many of these strikes could be errant and unintentional. I'm also sure the IDF doesn't actually care about the collateral damage so it's irrelevant whether they intend to kill innocent civilians, they're doing it quite effectively without compunction.
 
ksharp said:
Do you have any proof, though? Isn't IDF responding to Hamas sites, rocket launch spots or ammo caches? Also, there is (unfortunatelyla margin of error with military attacks and collateral damage.
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Not sure if serious or if this is a joke post
 
Ingueferroque said:
I'm sure they want running water, electricity, not being harassed/killed and driven out of their land and homes. Oh, and not to be bombed mercilessly and driven to madness by low-flying drones.
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Unfortunately that's not going to happen until whoever is in charge has been sorted out, the best way to do that is to pick whoever the people want to govern them. Don't get me wrong, I understand that those things you listed are important, but whilst two groups of people with military power think they're in the right and the other is in the wrong, they will fight, and the civilians will be caught in the crossfire. The quicker there is a victor, the quicker they can focus on restoring the basic human rights of the Gazan people. Alternatively we can send in UN troops and force a ceasefire, but the UN will never do that because politics blah blah blah Israel has nuclear blah blah blah oil and money blah blah blah relief aid blah blah blah.
 
ksharp said:
Do you have any proof, though? Isn't IDF responding to Hamas sites, rocket launch spots or ammo caches? Also, there is (unfortunatelyla margin of error with military attacks and collateral damage.

Just pointing out here that people are very quick to blame Israel for everything without giving it the benefit of the doubt.
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What the actual fuck are you talking about. Benefit of what doubt? We're discussing facts, pictures, death tolls. I must be crazy.
 
i feel so powerless in this situation, i really want to change something about it but i know nothing will change.

israel can do what ever the fuck they want and nobody will ever tell them other wise.
 
Heshinsi said:
There was also the assassination of Rabin by a radical Israeli and the killings at the mosque of the Patriarchs. Hamas are a bunch of cunts, but they weren't the only ones who wanted to destroy what the accords had achieved. If you look at the time line, they may not have been the first to derail it either.
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No doubt there are extremists Israelis, and hardliners in government. I focus more on Hamas because they are organized with the goal of being a bunch of cunts though.
 
Com. General of the UNWRA:

@PKraehenbuehl: This is 6th time one of our @UNRWA schools has been struck. Our staff leading int'l response are being killed. This is a breaking point.
 
Dash27 said:
No doubt there are extremists Israelis, and hardliners in government. I focus more on Hamas because they are organized with the goal of being a bunch of cunts though.
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And Israel...?

With their actions, they are almost intentionally breeding martyrs and future terrorists.. especially after taking away everything that the Gaza people have.

Dubbedinenglish said:
Com. General of the UNWRA:

@PKraehenbuehl: This is 6th time one of our @UNRWA schools has been struck. Our staff leading int'l response are being killed. This is a breaking point.
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Sadly it seems we're nowhere close to a breaking point, BBC doesn't seem to care.. Belgian news doesn't even headline the events last I checked. And the US media situation is just depressing.
 
Senoculum said:
That is very interesting. But we must remain objective. There is propaganda on BOTH sides. The onus is on the winning party. It falls on Israel to stop offensive strikes. They should be the "bigger man" and take a stand for peace. The UN needs to step in and insist on the ceasefire.

It's 2014, and governments still believe in "complete annihilation" of the enemy, when history proves that making a friend of your enemy is much more lucrative. Blowing up schools isn't going to prevent future generations from being bitter and hateful.
Click to expand...

If the Israeli Ambassador on MSNBC is to be believed (and Andrea Mitchell didnt contest this) they have had multiple cease fire attempts, and I believe he said 5 that Israel agreed to and Hamas did not. Meanwhile during negotiations they still fire these rockets.

So no I'd say the onus is on Hamas to stop firing rockets, which is really the issue at hand. The real escalation was them firing a wave of longer range rockets into Israel. Once that started happening, there was no doubt that a large scale military action was going to come.
 
Dash27 said:
If the Israeli Ambassador on MSNBC is to be believed (and Andrea Mitchell didnt contest this) they have had multiple cease fire attempts, and I believe he said 5 that Israel agreed to and Hamas did not. Meanwhile during negotiations they still fire these rockets.

So no I'd say the onus is on Hamas to stop firing rockets, which is really the issue at hand. The real escalation was them firing a wave of longer range rockets into Israel. Once that started happening, there was no doubt that a large scale military action was going to come.
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hahahahahaaahaahhahahahahahahhaa

I'm becoming physically ill from these events, this news, and some of the reactions. I'm out for today.
 
gofreak said:
I don't get how the Israeli people can buy that all this is in any way making them safer. Israel is just breeding more ammunition for terrorism ad nauseum. How does it make any sense?

If Israel could rewind the clock, they should have tried winning Palestinian hearts and minds. Building schools and hospitals, not destroying them. In fact, POURING money into gaza and palestine, lifting people out of poverty, giving them and lifestyle such that Hamas could be ultimately marginalised. Hamas is strengthened by desperation and Israel is just making the Palestinians more and more desperate. Surely they could address Hamas in a more targetted way than this?

Or is it the case that Palestinians would hate Israel regardless and Hamas would continue to enjoy strong support if the Palestinians had great lives?
Click to expand...

I think the current Israeli administration is being disingenuous when it comes to their aims. They don't want peace they want the status quo, they want Palestinians to leave, they want the land.

I think they have a long term strategy and it does not include a two state solution. Really the only way for that to happen is USA takes the stick to them and forces them to negotiate. Similar to how Major, and then Blair, cajoled and threatened the Unionists to the table.
 
Ingueferroque said:
And Israel...?

With their actions, they are almost intentionally breeding martyrs and future terrorists.. especially after taking away everything that the Gaza people have.
Click to expand...

Israel is not blameless but seems reactionary. Suicide bombers mean walls and border restrictions. Arming with rockets via Iran and Syria mean blockades. Electing Hamas means far more mistrust at the very least. Not sure what they are expected to do given the circumstances.
 
Dash27 said:
If you care about the hostilities you need to address the causes. They wont end until a peaceful resolution can be found. This is the most intractable problem in the middle east and that's saying something. We are finally now, after generations of this, getting to a point where it's possible to envision some sort of brokered long term solution. From the various peace talks to the roadmaps. Fatah agreeing to work towards peace to Israel pulling out of Gaza unilaterally. All good steps.

You still see the same cycle though. Tensions, a culminating event or series of events, arrests, murders, kidnapping, arms smuggling, rockets, and finally an IDF military action. Next is cease fire, and winding down. Meanwhile hundreds will have died.

But if you dont solve it, it will just happen again. And you wont have to wait very long.
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No, It matters to you becuase you hold a fixation on that. I won't engage in that meaningless discussion.
 
Serious question has anyone on gaf defended people being raped like some have the wholesale slaughter of a group of people?
 
Dash27 said:
Israel is not blameless but seems reactionary. Suicide bombers mean walls and border restrictions. Arming with rockets via Iran and Syria mean blockades. Electing Hamas means far more mistrust at the very least. Not sure what they are expected to do given the circumstances.
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Reactionary War crimes. Its like someone throws a stone at you and you burn down the house
 
Reading through the Commissioner General of the UNWRA's timeline is depressing:

https://mobile.twitter.com/PKraehenbuehl

@PKraehenbuehl: My colleagues in #Gaza going through the most dramatic days yet in the conflict. Another @UNRWA staff killed today, bringing total to 5.

@PKraehenbuehl: 200'000 displaced people now in 82 @UNRWA schools. If you think it sounds orderly, think again. If you think it is sustainable think again.

@PKraehenbuehl: Hygiene conditions deteriorating rapidly at shelters. Not enough water, too few showers. Disease outbreaks now a growing risk.

@PKraehenbuehl: On average 2'400 per school & over 80 persons per classroom. @UNRWA covers the basics of food & mattresses. Other critical needs unmet.

@PKraehenbuehl: Massive displacement caused by mil ops is overwhelming humanitarian agencies & leading to acute dilemmas in dealing with scale of crisis.

@PKraehenbuehl: Reports indicate ongoing risks of further displacements in #Gaza. If so, 1'000s would be stranded in streets in middle of a deadly war zone.

@PKraehenbuehl: Already profoundly marked by years of Israeli blockade, the population of #Gaza has now reached breaking point. The violence must end.


@PKraehenbuehl: We have moved beyond realm of humanitarian action alone. Are now in the realm of accountability and the need for action to end the carnage.
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Just completely depressing.
 
1HV8Wbm.png

http://www.ewash.org/files/library/2014 07 29 WASH Cluster Situation Report.pdf
 
thehypocrite said:
No, It matters to you becuase you hold a fixation on it that. I won't engage in that meaningless discussion.
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All his arguments amount to "cart before the horse" analogies. He's literally here to drown out any logical thought with a constant barrage of disingenuous hasbara sourced rhetoric
 
Dash27 said:
If the Israeli Ambassador on MSNBC is to be believed (and Andrea Mitchell didnt contest this) they have had multiple cease fire attempts, and I believe he said 5 that Israel agreed to and Hamas did not. Meanwhile during negotiations they still fire these rockets.

So no I'd say the onus is on Hamas to stop firing rockets, which is really the issue at hand. The real escalation was them firing a wave of longer range rockets into Israel. Once that started happening, there was no doubt that a large scale military action was going to come.
Click to expand...

Hamas has offered a 10 year Ceasefire under very reasonable conditions.

Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.

Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.

Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.

Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.

Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.

Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

International forces on the borders.

Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.

Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.
Click to expand...
 
Dash27 said:
Israel is not blameless but seems reactionary. Suicide bombers mean walls and border restrictions. Arming with rockets via Iran and Syria mean blockades. Electing Hamas means far more mistrust at the very least. Not sure what they are expected to do given the circumstances.
Click to expand...

Israel carpet bombing Gaza is not reactionary. Neither is keeping the Palestinian people in a state of apartheid. Hamas may be labelled as terrorists, but the Israeli government and the IDF is something far far worse.

Hopefully one day justice will be served and they will be charged with war crimes.
 
baterism said:
It just wrong.

It is like blowing a bank with all hostages inside to kill a robber.
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I really don't understand how their justification makes sense anymore. I guess it never did, but at one point they convinced everyone it was the only way they could deal with Hamas.

They're using the Ray Rice defense. She spit on me so I knocked her the fuck out. Well, she provoked me.
 
gutter_trash said:
I said it before, watch Israel's future moves to take away Gaza's border with Egypt to cut off their food and supplies
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you should educate yourself about the situation before posting like this, because that makes no sense.

firstly because Israel is the one that is bringing in food and supplies to Gaza, not Egypt.

and secondly because the government in Egypt hates Hamas more then Israel does.
 
gofreak said:
I don't get how the Israeli people can buy that all this is in any way making them safer. Israel is just breeding more ammunition for terrorism ad nauseum. How does it make any sense?

If Israel could rewind the clock, they should have tried winning Palestinian hearts and minds. Building schools and hospitals, not destroying them. In fact, POURING money into gaza and palestine, lifting people out of poverty, giving them and lifestyle such that Hamas could be ultimately marginalised. Hamas is strengthened by desperation and Israel is just making the Palestinians more and more desperate. Surely they could address Hamas in a more targetted way than this?

Or is it the case that Palestinians would hate Israel regardless and Hamas would continue to enjoy strong support if the Palestinians had great lives?
Click to expand...
Israel doesn't want that. They want the palestinians to go away so they don't outbreed them and overwhelm them.
 
Vagabundo said:
Hamas has offered a 10 year Ceasefire under very reasonable conditions.
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I've seen that posted. It's really not reasonable. Fishing zones and prayers are one thing, but borders and blockades carry with it certain other concessions they'd have to make. Especially in this situation controlling the border into your own country is very reasonable. The Egyptian side is their business. But most importantly, none of it disarms Hamas and in fact would make it far easier to resupply.

And again given the past this is how it goes every time. Tensions, triggers, rockets, military action, lots of civilian deaths, cease fire, re-arm, go back to the beginning.

So yeah sure cease fire, but we know from experience it's going to flare up again soon.
 
Mesousa said:
Why are they their brothers?

Because they are Muslim or because they are ARAB?

I dunno man...it seems people(arab countries) only want to pull the ummah card when Arabs are getting it. This "Ummah" does not seem to exist at all when it is non Arab muslims getting it.
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I agree. The Arab people are one of most racist people on earth
 
Dash27 said:
If the Israeli Ambassador on MSNBC is to be believed (and Andrea Mitchell didnt contest this) they have had multiple cease fire attempts, and I believe he said 5 that Israel agreed to and Hamas did not. Meanwhile during negotiations they still fire these rockets.

So no I'd say the onus is on Hamas to stop firing rockets, which is really the issue at hand. The real escalation was them firing a wave of longer range rockets into Israel. Once that started happening, there was no doubt that a large scale military action was going to come.
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1.) There is no confirmation and plenty of evidence to the contrary that Hamas leadership does not have full control over the rockets being fired. So rocket fire continuing at any point shouldn't be a surprise.

2.) Hamas largely rejected at least one of the reported ceasefires because they were left out of the process completely and the language involved in it was suggested to have supported the notion that Israel could keep the blockade indefinitely. As a group that considers the blockade itself an act of aggression and an act of war itself, it's pretty easy to see why Hamas would continue to reject these agreements. They themselves have issued a ceasefire agreement in the past and Israel won't even entertain it as a starting point.

3.) actions of Hamas, as dumb as they have been, never justifies the sort of retaliatory actions we have seen that have left over 1000 civilians dead. At this point it is collective punishment with little regard for civilian casualties.
 
Those are reasonable conditions in reality, for a sustained ceasefire. You want to keep the Palestinians fenced in and starved to avoid peace?
 
This conflict is depressing. i don't understand why some of you would seek out horrible images of the dead or injured. Looking at those images would have me crawl into a hole and never leave.
 
Quotient said:
This conflict is depressing. i don't understand why some of you would seek out horrible images of the dead or injured. Looking at those images would have me crawl into a hole and never leave.
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Not that I'm always advocating it, but there are times when shock is necessary to demonstrate the terrible gravity of situations... :-/
 
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