Israel attacks another UN school (19 dead, 126 injured)

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An article that presents a different take on the questions I was asking earlier:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...ning-of-political-end-for-netanyahu-1.1881802

Monday’s events, when 10 Israeli soldiers were killed during a ceasefire declared by militant groups, further increased the pressure on prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu to order a significant escalation in the military campaign.

The war is being conducted by Netanyahu, in tandem with defence minister Moshe Ya’alon and the army’s chief of staff, Lieut Gen Benny Gantz. All three seek an end to the conflict, preferably via a ceasefire agreement, as soon as the army has destroyed the offensive tunnels built by Hamas to carry out attacks inside Israel. However, this strategy is at odds with the public mood and the sentiments of a majority of the government.

A weekend poll found an overwhelming majority of the public – 86.5 per cent – believes that Israel cannot agree to a ceasefire as long as Hamas continues to fire rockets on Israel, as long as tunnels remain and as long as Hamas refuses to surrender.
Only 2.2 per cent described the military operation as “a great success for Israel”; 22.6 per cent described it as a “good success for Israel”, while the majority, 47.6 per cent, saw only mediocre success.

With mounting Israeli casualties – more than 50 soldiers killed and 130 still hospitalised – stopping the war without a significant military victory to boost Israel’s deterrence could be politically disastrous for the prime minister.
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Basically, popular mood in Israel and political considerations are what's fueling the escalations?

Are the Israeli people this short sighted? Revenge is not going to make them safer. I suppose the appetite for a ceasefire here is very lopsided. This isn't really like - say - Northern Ireland where everyone was tired of conflict.
 
 
OverBlood 3 said:
Bu-bu-bu right to defend themselves and human shields!

Fucking disgraceful and yet no one steps in to stop all this murder. If this was happening anywhere else in the world someone would step in and stop this, yet we're firmly in bed with Israel. Murder away.
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Unrelated but can we retire this annoying meme? 'B-b-but' always slides discourse into a more emotional/less rational realm.

Anyway, this has gone on way too long. Israel needs to exercise some forethought here and realize that because these actions ultimately are fruitless, the cruelty of airstrikes can not be justified. It's hurting the long-term security of their citizens. Hamas remains strong, what is this accomplishing beneficial to Israel?
 
Well seems like any kind of peace that was ever going to come between the two has been set back for decades. Of course, the leaders of Israel never wanted that to begin with.
 
Jonm1010 said:
1.) There is no confirmation and plenty of evidence to the contrary that Hamas leadership does not have full control over the rockets being fired. So rocket fire continuing at any point shouldn't be a surprise.

2.) Hamas largely rejected at least one of the reported ceasefires because they were left out of the process completely and the language involved in it was suggested to have supported the notion that Israel could keep the blockade indefinitely. As a group that considers the blockade itself an act of aggression and an act of war itself, it's pretty easy to see why Hamas would continue to reject these agreements. They themselves have issued a ceasefire agreement in the past and Israel won't even entertain it as a starting point.

3.) actions of Hamas, as dumb as they have been, never justifies the sort of retaliatory actions we have seen that have left over 1000 civilians dead. At this point it is collective punishment with little regard for civilian casualties.
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I'd concede points 2 and 3, but regarding the first, in the same interview the Israeli Ambassador claims that an Islamic Jihad rocket (not sure how he knows specifically IJ, but he made a point to say not Hamas) was what hit the hospital the other day.

Further, in general the IDF claims that at least a hundred rockets fired from by Hamas/others land within Gaza. This is an older map they issued:

gaza-own-goal.jpg



Anyone know this to be false?
 
I always worry that I will become desensitized to stories like these, but when I see stuff like this...

zeroOman said:
NSFW NSFW NSFW

https://twitter.com/iHaZeMi/status/494502439303647232

https://twitter.com/YousefAljamal/status/494502775938506753

https://twitter.com/YousefAljamal/status/494503471836450818

https://twitter.com/YousefAljamal/status/494502625916628995

https://twitter.com/YousefAljamal/status/494504656148496384
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Gemüsepizza;123320327 said:
babyymrib.jpg
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...I know that there will never be a point where an incident like this doesn't upset me greatly.

Fuck this entire situation. Fuck it all.
 
mugurumakensei said:
Unless they are also not aware of the rockets being there. There's at least three schools that have had rockets in them. It would come as no surprise that more would have rockets.
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Are you seriously excusing the decision to attack a UN shelter because there might be rockets there? Jesus.
Quotient said:
This conflict is depressing. i don't understand why some of you would seek out horrible images of the dead or injured. Looking at those images would have me crawl into a hole and never leave.
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Why not instead be motivated to stop so much bloodshed?
 
IDF propaganda and talking points are sickening, even when what they are describing isn't complete bollocks. They can't seem to appreciate the rage inducing tone of it.

I'm sure there have been plenty misfires, considering how poorly equipped Hamas is and the state of those rockets.
 
Dash27 said:
I'd concede points 2 and 3, but regarding the first, in the same interview the Israeli Ambassador claims that an Islamic Jihad rocket (not sure how he knows specifically IJ, but he made a point to say not Hamas) was what hit the hospital the other day.

Further, in general the IDF claims that at least a hundred rockets fired from by Hamas/others land within Gaza. This is an older map they issued:

gaza-own-goal.jpg



Anyone know this to be false?
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you're sourcing the IDF so the real question should be "anyone got any other sources?"
 
Toxi said:
Are you seriously excusing the decision to attack a UN shelter because there might be rockets there? Jesus.
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Decision is an interesting word. How does the IDF chose it's targets and what information do they have?

Meaning to they have a map of targets and pick them, or do they see a rocket being fired and then hit the point of origin or both or what?


danwarb said:
IDF propaganda and talking points are sickening, even when what they are describing isn't complete bollocks. They can't seem to appreciate the rage inducing tone of it.

I'm sure there have been plenty misfires, considering how poorly equipped Hamas is and the state of those rockets.
Click to expand...

And so... that's ok?
 
Dash27 said:
Decision is an interesting word. How does the IDF chose it's targets and what information do they have?

Meaning to they have a map of targets and pick them, or do they see a rocket being fired and then hit the point of origin or both or what?
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The UN shelters send their location coordinates. The IDF knew they were there.

It's amazing how to excuse the IDF, you'll say they're so incompetent they don't even know where they're firing.
 
kmag said:
The BBC are overwhelmingly pro-Israeli. The Guardian is pro-Israeli but walks a bit of a finer line. Of the UK papers only really the Independent could be called pro-Palestinian and that's more to do with some of their senior reporters and the editorial freedom they get rather than any editorial line.
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Ok, you guys are probably right about this issue. I was just talking about the news organizations in general.
 
Dash27 said:
Decision is an interesting word. How does the IDF chose it's targets and what information do they have?

Meaning to they have a map of targets and pick them, or do they see a rocket being fired and then hit the point of origin or both or what?
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Doesn't matter. If they're doing the former then they're intentionally hitting locations that they know to be UN shelters. If they're doing the latter then they're so grossly incompetent that they don't actually know what they're shooting at and can't be bothered to find out. "Satellite imaging? Maps? What the fuck are those?"

Neither option is acceptable.
 
Toxi said:
The UN shelters send their location coordinates. The IDF knew they were there.
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I saw that, but I'm wondering how it all works.

My brother flies an F-16. Back after Saddam gassed the Kurds and the US/UK patrolled the Iraqi airspace to help make sure it didnt happen again, he mentioned that the Iraqis had anti air missiles, but wouldnt turn on any radar because they knew the fighters could then lock on and destroy it. So the Iraqis would just fire blindly sometimes and never hit anything. But I'm wondering if it's similar here. Rocket fires, but IDF has the ok to return fire and wouldnt check coordinates.

Or... is it some guy saying "We think rockets are here, we know it's a UN building and people are inside and we are gonna get shit for it but... open fire"
 
Dash27 said:
I saw that, but I'm wondering how it all works.

My brother flies an F-16. Back after Saddam gassed the Kurds and the US/UK patrolled the Iraqi airspace to help make sure it didnt happen again, he mentioned that the Iraqis had anti air missiles, but wouldnt turn on any radar because they knew the fighters could then lock on and destroy it. So the Iraqis would just fire blindly sometimes and never hit anything. But I'm wondering if it's similar here. Rocket fires, but IDF has the ok to return fire and wouldnt check coordinates.

Or... is it some guy saying "We think rockets are here, we know it's a UN building and people are inside and we are gonna get shit for it but... open fire"
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I personally think it is the former, negligence, rather than the latter, intentionally targeting civilians - It doesn't help the Israeli's public perception when the front page of newspapers/websites are dead Palestinian children in UN shelters.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Israeli responses are unguided munitions.

Regardless, the IDF is responsible for every weapon fired, and MUST ensure that civilians are not in the line of fire.
 
Facism said:
you're sourcing the IDF so the real question should be "anyone got any other sources?"
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Sources? What does that mean? Obviously nothing in these threads.

Hamas said something? Must be true!

One Twitter post about a subject? Must be true!

Something happened? Must be true!

Meanwhile the IDF documents everything it finds with actual video proof. Showing numerous rockets fired from civilian areas, rockets and munitions found in civilian areas, houses rigged to blow up, numerous tunnels into Israel, numerous footage of aborted airstrikes when civilians show up and just general information that doesn't smear Israel as a blood thirsty murder. (Take it with a pinch of salt, it's going to be biased towards Israel, but you can't deny every bit of footage).

But the icing on the cake, actual footage from the last 'massacre' where supposedly 16 people were killed and 200 wounded in the last UN school attack ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62AyrcSaA3M

Empty playground.
 
Wiping out whole families is surely the way to guarantee the long term future and security of your state. I wouldnt be surprised if Al Qaeda or some other ultra extreme group embeds itself in Gaza, should this cycle of death and mayhem continue.
 
Toxi said:
I don't know how anyone could have an easy time believing the IDF. They have been caught lying several times already during this conflict.
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I think he's not saying it's easy to believe because it's the IDF. In fact, it's BECAUSE it's from the IDF that he is asking if it's true. It's easy to believe because rockets from Gaza have indeed landed in Gaza numerous times in the past.
 
Razgreez said:
East to believe murderer's plea of innocence while it literally continues to murder in front of your very eyes. You are one seriously demented individual
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Well this is uncalled for. He's asking if there are sources, not pushing propaganda. It's easy to believe because Hamas uses pretty low tech weaponry that is prone to failure.

Even if true, the correct response to the graphic is "So?"
 
Dash27 said:
I'd concede points 2 and 3, but regarding the first, in the same interview the Israeli Ambassador claims that an Islamic Jihad rocket (not sure how he knows specifically IJ, but he made a point to say not Hamas) was what hit the hospital the other day.

Further, in general the IDF claims that at least a hundred rockets fired from by Hamas/others land within Gaza. This is an older map they issued:

[


Anyone know this to be false?
Click to expand...
Under what pretense do you trust the IDF that has been proven to have been lying throughout this campaign over the NBC reporter that saw with his own eyes a drone striking that hospital?
 
Whitechocolatekrispies said:
Sources? What does that mean? Obviously nothing in these threads.

Hamas said something? Must be true!

One Twitter post about a subject? Must be true!

Something happened? Must be true!

Meanwhile the IDF documents everything it finds with actual video proof. Showing numerous rockets fired from civilian areas, rockets and munitions found in civilian areas, houses rigged to blow up, numerous tunnels into Israel, numerous footage of aborted airstrikes when civilians show up and just general information that doesn't smear Israel as a blood thirsty murder. (Take it with a pinch of salt, it's going to be biased towards Israel, but you can't deny every bit of footage).

But the icing on the cake, actual footage from the last 'massacre' where supposedly 16 people were killed and 200 wounded in the last UN school attack ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62AyrcSaA3M

Empty playground.
Click to expand...

I find your smug, mocking tone about a serious humanitarian crisis to be utterly juvenile and absolutely offensive
 
vas_a_morir said:
I think he's not saying it's easy to believe because it's the IDF. In fact, it's BECAUSE it's from the IDF that he is asking if it's true. It's easy to believe because rockets from Gaza have indeed landed in Gaza numerous times in the past.
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Ah, mi culpa. I read it wrong.
Whitechocolatekrispies said:
Sources? What does that mean? Obviously nothing in these threads.

Hamas said something? Must be true!

One Twitter post about a subject? Must be true!

Something happened? Must be true!

Meanwhile the IDF documents everything it finds with actual video proof. Showing numerous rockets fired from civilian areas, rockets and munitions found in civilian areas, houses rigged to blow up, numerous tunnels into Israel, numerous footage of aborted airstrikes when civilians show up and just general information that doesn't smear Israel as a blood thirsty murder. (Take it with a pinch of salt, it's going to be biased towards Israel, but you can't deny every bit of footage).

But the icing on the cake, actual footage from the last 'massacre' where supposedly 16 people were killed and 200 wounded in the last UN school attack ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62AyrcSaA3M

Empty playground.
Click to expand...
"Supposedly 16 people were killed"

Well, I'm glad to see you're in full denial mode.
 
theignoramus said:
Wiping out whole families is surely the way to guarantee the long term future and security of your state. I wouldnt be surprised if Al Qaeda or some other ultra extreme group embeds itself in Gaza, should this cycle of death and mayhem continue.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't surprise me if that was their end-game. If they can actually get al-Qaida or ISIS in there no one in the world is going to care if they wage full-scale war in the area. Try as they might to equate them I think lots of people are smart enough to realise that goals of Hamas and Al Qaida are different.
 
Jonm1010 said:
Under what pretense do you trust the IDF that has been proven to have been lying throughout this campaign and over the NBC reporter that saw with his own eyes a drone striking that hospital?
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Interesting. Because I'd like to know how he'd see a missile going faster than the speed of sound with a smokeless rocket motor, let alone be able to pin point its origin.
 
ItIsOkBro said:
So they're bombing themselves? This is propaganda if I've ever seen it.
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Hamas doesn't have sophisticated rockets, so it's not surprising that many mis-fire and land in their own areas. Now the question is whether you believe the number and locations provided by the IDF.
 
Pizarro said:
Obama doesn't like netanyahu, but were he to try to do anything it would be fucking over for him over here. Damn israel supporting morons.
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Obama is a lame duck president. He needs to grow a pair and take a stand against this shit.

Slaughtering non combatants is indefensible, simple as that.
 
Again . . . my advice for Israel:
-Help the Palestinians form their own state.
-Then when they have their own state and it invades you or militants within that state attack you, you then have some moral authority to fight back.

This current action is largely killing a lot of children and civilians in territory that you control the borders of.
 
Dave Inc. said:
Well this is uncalled for. He's asking if there are sources, not pushing propaganda. It's easy to believe because Hamas uses pretty low tech weaponry that is prone to failure.

Even if true, the correct response to the graphic is "So?"
Click to expand...

Well if it's true they are firing blindly and if it's true a significant amount hit their own people... I think that's kind of important as we hear of all these incidents.

That's on top of the common refrain about Hamas not being able to control everyone firing these things.
 
Whitechocolatekrispies said:
Interesting. Because I'd like to know how he'd see a missile going faster than the speed of sound with a smokeless rocket motor, let alone be able to pin point it.
Click to expand...

Ask NBC? They made the claim. And if it had been Hamas rocket fire don't you think the reporter would have noticed that? It's very possible to see and hear a drone, see no other rockets from inside gaza being fired and then a massive explosion and draw the conclusion that it wasn't internally. And given how Israel has already lied about striking UN facilities and made false claims elsewhere the idea that they deserve the benefit of a doubt seems rather laughable.

Think logically for one second, why would Hamas strike their own hospitals where arguably their own fighters are being treated? It's rather counter productive both politically and strategically and takes a pretty strong misunderstanding of human nature to swallow. If you say it's because that's what they do then please be prepared to back it up with facts and independent source verification. On the other hand you have Israel that has been found to be following the Dahiya doctrine in past incursions as concluded by UN investigations which falls exactly in line with the sort of actions we are seeing. You have numerous other examples of civilian structures being hit, attacking the power plant, attacking UN schools, shelters, ambulances and other non-combative structures.
 
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