Support NeoGAF

[Wray]

Basically this is really good for inter solar system travel. Extra solar travel would take a warp drive.

Not really true. Interstellar travel can be achieved with propulsion technology. At least, within nearby stars. A 100 year voyage is feasible in the near future when you factor in that the life span of humans is going to drastically increase. Even more likely is the idea that human space travelers of the future will be thinking AI's instead of biological humans. Or to take it one step further, we can send our consciousness along for the trip as information, but leave our biological bodies at home.

Now, intergalactic travel...yeah. For that we'd need a faster than light speed travel method.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Cool experiment, but 30 micronewtons of thrust is a long way from sub light speed travel.

Right, but is this engine scalable? Can we built much larger ones that provide much large thrust? Could we honeycomb smaller ones by the dozens like those old Soviet rockets to provide greater thrust?

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Right, but is this engine scalable? Can we built much larger ones that provide much large thrust? Could we honeycomb smaller ones by the dozens like those old Soviet rockets to provide greater thrust?

Hard to say since, assuming it does work, we don't know how. The intuition is to say yes, two thrusters would work better than one. Most of our physics seems pretty consistent there. But most of our physics also follows conservation of momentum, so who knows!?

 

[Nafai1123]

Some really cool stuff on the emdrive.com site.

Performance Parameter\Current Ion Propulsion System\Proposed Microwave Propulsion System
DC power (Watts): 700\700
Thrust (mN): 23\88
Thrust period (Years): 1.6\15
System Mass (kg): 94\9


The 15 year thrust period is based on the cathode life of the magnetron. This will be the same technology as that used in space qualified TWTA’s, which are currently specified for 15 years continuous operation.

If the 700 W (dc) engine was used as primary propulsion for a 50 kg science probe, a velocity increment of 5.6 km/sec would be achieved in the first year for a thrust of 88 mN. Thereafter, due to the effects of equation 2, the thrust falls as the velocity increases, until after 15 years, the thrust would be 16 mN at a terminal velocity approaching 30 km/sec.

So it could theoretically be more efficient than ion propulsion while weighing significantly less.

 

[-Deimos]

Fire up your quantum vacuum plasma thrusters, boys!

 

[ndawgdrake]

Damn I was born in the wrong era.

 

[CharminUltra]

Mwahahahaha I love it when science gets proven wrong take THAT scientists!

Spoiler

I'm already seeing posts like that on FB. I need better FB friends -_-

 

[timetokill]

If this is viable in any form we'll see military uses far before space colonization uses, unfortunately.

I look forward to the day when the US can go fuel-independent with all of their jets and battleships though.

 

[evilromero]

Interesting. Something tells me the marines will be the first to build a base there.

 

[xbhaskarx]

So is there a video anywhere of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxHkAQRQUQ

 

[RedShift]

If this is viable in any form we'll see military uses far before space colonization uses, unfortunately.

I look forward to the day when the US can go fuel-independent with all of their jets and battleships though.

You can already power ships without fuel, you just hook a generator up to a propeller. Hence nuclear subs and the US's new nuclear aircraft carriers.

You can also power a plane without fuel if you put a nuclear reactor on board and use to superheat the atmosphere. This is pretty much theoretical though, only a mad scientist would actually make a flying nuclear reactor, though I think there were a few test prototypes or something.

This tech is probably not going to be applicable to anything not in a vacuum because a) the amounts of thrust are so small they'll barely make a scratch on friction and b) there are way way better options when you have an atmosphere/ocean to push against.

 

[orientalNoodle]

Electrons are particles under classical physics. They shouldn't show interference in a double slit experiment.

If you interpret electron as a particle then yea, but if you interpret electron as a wave, then the classical physics can perfectly describe the interference patterns.

New theories usually don't invalidate previous theories but expand and build upon the previous ones. You know the old saying of standing on the shoulders of giants by Newton.

 

[timetokill]

You can already power ships without fuel, you just hook a generator up to a propeller. Hence nuclear subs and the US's new nuclear aircraft carriers.

Pretty sure those still need fuel, but good point that they generally don't need to be REfueled, which is the important bit. I'm not just talking about straight gas here.

You can also power a plane without fuel if you put a nuclear reactor on board and use to superheat the atmosphere. This is pretty much theoretical though, only a mad scientist would actually make a flying nuclear reactor, though I think there were a few test prototypes or something.

Let's get on this! I love it. Sounds awesome.

This tech is probably not going to be applicable to anything not in a vacuum because a) the amounts of thrust are so small they'll barely make a scratch on friction and b) there are way way better options when you have an atmosphere/ocean to push against.

Good point. Hopefully it's used for space exploration then.

 

[Nafai1123]

After some further reading, it sounds like this would not be viable for near-light speed travel, as the thrust of the engine decreases as your velocity along the thrust vector increases. You would reach the terminal velocity of the engine long before reaching those kinds of speed.

 

[CornDogg]

I really hope this pans out, but it sounds like there could be some sketchy stuff going on.

I want to believe, though!

 

[DedValve]

So they created a technology they don't understand? That is so fucking awesome I can't even comprehend it

Spoiler

literally!

 

[Extra Sauce]

Not really lol

 

[Walshicus]

Some really cool stuff on the emdrive.com site.



So it could theoretically be more efficient than ion propulsion while weighing significantly less.

If it works... *If*.

I mean yeah, it could open up the solar system. Jupiter in months, Mars in weeks?

 

[Extra Sauce]

Wow . . . a non super hero and non sequel. Nice to see Hollywood make something creative now & then.

Too bad the movie will probably suffer from exposition diarrhea and a cynical distrust of the audience's ability to follow the plot.

Spoiler

I want to believe.

 

[uberluigi]

So is there a video anywhere of this?

 

[mugwhump]

Bullshit.

 

[M3d10n]

Would this only work in space or something? This seems like it'd have huge implications for fuel usage on Earth too?

It's unnecessary on Earth: we already have convenient means for converting electricity into movement on Earth due to an endless supply of things to push. A car's wheels move by trying to push the ground, a plane moves by pushing the air into it's turbines a boat moves by pushing the water using its engine or by being pushed by the wind.

An electric engine is useless in space because there's nothing to push, so our ships need to carry their own supply of pushable stuff (the fuel) in order to move around, which is a damn shame because solar power is abundant in deep space.

 

[Mrdrboi]

I guess there is still alot we dont know about physics and what not.

 

[orientalNoodle]

Lol so I went to the http://www.cannae.com and the whole thing looks like a scam to me.

 

[Mrdrboi]

Fuckin Quantum Vacuum Plasma Thruster Engines how do they work..

 

[Orbis Tabula]

After some further reading, it sounds like this would not be viable for near-light speed travel, as the thrust of the engine decreases as your velocity along the thrust vector increases. You would reach the terminal velocity of the engine long before reaching those kinds of speed.

Wait, what? How could that work? How could the drive know how fast it's going? In respect to what frame of reference? A drive flying past the planet has be to indistinguishable from a planet flying past in the other direction. If this isn't the case with the drive, then that's two big fundamentals it's violating. Conservation of Momentum AND special relativity.

 

[M3d10n]

Wait, what? How could that work? How could the drive know how fast it's going? In respect to what frame of reference? A drive flying past the planet has be to indistinguishable from a planet flying past in the other direction. If this isn't the case with the drive, then that's two big fundamentals it's violating. Conservation of Momentum AND special relativity.

The faster you are traveling, the bigger is your "mass", so a constant force will result in less acceleration until reaching equilibrium. Basically, the faster you are, the more energy you need to move faster, tending towards infinite as you approach the speed of light.

 

[ЯAW]

This will be another "faster then speed of light neutrino".

 

[Cow Mengde]

NASA doesnt know why it works, its troll science, but they were able to replicate it like the Chinese did.

We're sure this is not fake? The Chinese did something before the scientists in NASA? I figured NASA would have a more advance space program than the Chinese.

 

[Gotchaye]

The faster you are traveling, the bigger is your mass, so a constant force will result in less acceleration until reaching equilibrium.

Well, not from your perspective. But even so, until you reach relativistic speeds that's not an issue, and it doesn't really make sense for the terminal velocity to be something other than light speed. The relativity talk trying to explain how this device is supposed to work reads like gibberish to me; the supposed terminal velocity seems ridiculously low for relativity to be making any difference.

 

[Timedog]

The quantum probability wave is not correct. Matter is governed, deterministically, by a fractal-like set. The only explanation for fractals continually coming up in nature at every level of existence is if fractals are weaved into the very fabric of our existence. Fractals interact with each other and create resonances. Time, which is simply change in the state of matter, is a fractal. This machine simply makes use of fractal resonance, but because scientists need to pretend that everything is a perfect sphere with perfect behavior, they dismiss fractals but accept quantum mechanics because they prefer "lol random" over "this shit is really fucking messy". Guess what scientists aka flip floppers, the behavior of shit in real life is messy as hell!

 

[Rebel Leader]

Sweet

 

[StoOgE]

I feel stupid believing this would actually work.

Also, lots of big words being tossed around. Very interesting.

It would work, but would require very powerful magnets to make it work, i.e. the energy cost would not be "free"

It's the way a fair number of launch rollercoasters move, though those are negative reactions that push the ride into a launch using ELMs.

 

[M3d10n]

Well, not from your perspective. But even so, until you reach relativistic speeds that's not an issue, and it doesn't really make sense for the terminal velocity to be something other than light speed. The relativity talk trying to explain how this device is supposed to work reads like gibberish to me; the supposed terminal velocity seems ridiculously low for relativity to be making any difference.

Indeed, I looked up the numbers and you are correct. Even at stupidly crazy speeds like 0.75C the mass increase would be a little over 50%. The number only really starts to ramp up after 0.99C.

 

[orientalNoodle]

Well, not from your perspective. But even so, until you reach relativistic speeds that's not an issue, and it doesn't really make sense for the terminal velocity to be something other than light speed. The relativity talk trying to explain how this device is supposed to work reads like gibberish to me; the supposed terminal velocity seems ridiculously low for relativity to be making any difference.

His statement is correct I think. The amount of energy to accelerate to near light speed increases exponentially. So if you are only pushing the spacecraft at a constant force, the acceleration would decrease as your velocity increases. And eventually the acceleration would be so small that you are not able to notice it at all, thus reaching terminal velocity.

 

[Lord Error]

It would work, but would require very powerful magnets to make it work, i.e. the energy cost would not be "free"

It's the way a fair number of launch rollercoasters move, though those are negative reactions that push the ride into a launch using ELMs.

No, it wouldn't work because this troll physics image is using the earth magnets with static magnetic fields. For it to work, the magnetic field would have to change dynamically, which requires electromagnets and use of power. That's how maglev trains etc move. It's not possible to create a maglev train, no matter how small, using just earth magnets. Many fake inventors of so called "magnetic motors" claim otherwise, but they are without exception always proven wrong.

 

[M3d10n]

His statement is correct I think. The amount of energy to accelerate to near light speed increases exponentially. So if you are only pushing the spacecraft at a constant force, the acceleration would decrease as your velocity increases. And eventually the acceleration would be so small that you are not able to notice it at all, thus reaching terminal velocity.

Yeah, but that only becomes significant at ridiculous speeds like over 90% light speed. You can calculate the dilatation factor here: http://www.1728.org/reltivty.htm

 

[Partial Gamification]

The quantum probability wave is not correct. Matter is governed, deterministically, by a fractal-like set. The only explanation for fractals continually coming up in nature at every level of existence is if fractals are weaved into the very fabric of our existence. Fractals interact with each other and create resonances. Time, which is simply change in the state of matter, is a fractal. This machine simply makes use of fractal resonance, but because scientists need to pretend that everything is a perfect sphere with perfect behavior, they dismiss fractals but accept quantum mechanics because they prefer "lol random" over "this shit is really fucking messy". Guess what scientists aka flip floppers, the behavior of shit in real life is messy as hell!

http://www.fractalfield.com/
"there is no substitute for electrical engineering understanding of phase conjugates
- without that the wu wu new age movement is doomed to disempowering miracle worship of trinkets.."
--unknown

 

[Calabi]

This will probably end up being disproved but this makes me disappointed in science a bit.

I keep hearing of theories being dismissed because they dont comply with this unfinished theory. We know we havent got a full theory of everything we dont fully understand the universe at all, we dont a hundred percent know whether certain theories apply in all cases(conservation of energy, thermodynamics, quantum physics etc). Yet scientists seem to dismiss this as if the books are finished and they understand everything.

It seems like most scientists are just experimenting with this unfinished book as if its finished, if that is the case it doesnt seem likely that there will be any great scientific leaps(when there might possibly). I mean its not certain that our universe is flat(equal to zero) I've heard a theory that its mishappen). But thats not the issue it seems most science is just singing to the hymn when at least some of it should be random and inquisitive, just trying things to see if they work, screw whether they comply with the law of physics.

I mean this will probably found to be a fraud but you never know, its ridiculous someone has to wait so long for someone to say ok lets test this. Who knows what discoveries may have been dismissed.

 

[cheezcake]

This will probably end up being disproved but this makes me disappointed in science a bit.

I keep hearing of theories being dismissed because they dont comply with this unfinished theory. We know we havent got a full theory of everything we dont fully understand the universe at all, we dont a hundred percent know whether certain theories apply in all cases(conservation of energy, thermodynamics, quantum physics etc). Yet scientists seem to dismiss this as if the books are finished and they understand everything.

It seems like most scientists are just experimenting with this unfinished book as if its finished, if that is the case it doesnt seem likely that there will be any great scientific leaps(when there might possibly). I mean its not certain that our universe is flat(equal to zero) I've heard a theory that its mishappen). But thats not the issue it seems most science is just singing to the hymn when at least some of it should be random and inquisitive, just trying things to see if they work, screw whether they comply with the law of physics.

I mean this will probably found to be a fraud but you never know, its ridiculous someone has to wait so long for someone to say ok lets test this. Who knows what discoveries may have been dismissed.

You don't experiment with man made stuff to see if it doesn't comply with the currently (extremely robust) standard model of particle physics and general relativity. You look for observations made from nature which defy them. Trying to manufacture a fuckin spaceship engine which no one understands is a recipe for disaster.

 

[nubbe]

If it is real, it would be like the discovery of electro magnetism

Totally world changing

 

[Dreadnought]

How much thrust is 30 micronewtons? Can someone put that into perspective for me?

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

This will probably end up being disproved but this makes me disappointed in science a bit.

I keep hearing of theories being dismissed because they dont comply with this unfinished theory. We know we havent got a full theory of everything we dont fully understand the universe at all, we dont a hundred percent know whether certain theories apply in all cases(conservation of energy, thermodynamics, quantum physics etc). Yet scientists seem to dismiss this as if the books are finished and they understand everything.

It seems like most scientists are just experimenting with this unfinished book as if its finished, if that is the case it doesnt seem likely that there will be any great scientific leaps(when there might possibly). I mean its not certain that our universe is flat(equal to zero) I've heard a theory that its mishappen). But thats not the issue it seems most science is just singing to the hymn when at least some of it should be random and inquisitive, just trying things to see if they work, screw whether they comply with the law of physics.

I mean this will probably found to be a fraud but you never know, its ridiculous someone has to wait so long for someone to say ok lets test this. Who knows what discoveries may have been dismissed.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NgZjgP9G7r0

 

[Gotchaye]

How much thrust is 30 micronewtons? Can someone put that into perspective for me?

A thousand thrusters like this all working together could lift a penny off the ground. If they actually work, obviously, and not counting what you need to lift the thrusters themselves.

 

[Dreadnought]

A thousand thrusters like this all working together could lift a penny off the ground. If they actually work, obviously.

Then why are there claims that you could get to Mars in a week with this engine if the thrust is so low?

 

[Telecinision]

I don't believe that it is real, but it is fun to imagine how it could be applied if it were. I believe satellite orbit maintenance has been mentioned, and that would be a pretty logical first step.

For greater distances, I could imagine a solar sail being used to collect the energy needed to power this engine, but I have no clue how much energy such a device could collect and if it would work, but hey, Count Dooku's ship had a cool design in my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKAROS

 

[Kurdel]

A thousand thrusters like this all working together could lift a penny off the ground. If they actually work, obviously.

Will the megastructure lift the penny to Mars in one week?

Edit:

Mars in one week is the chinese claim I think.

 

[Gotchaye]

Then why are there claims that you could get to Mars in a week with this engine if the thrust is so low?

The US team found much lower thrust than the Chinese team did, and one or two guys who make these in their garages claim even more, I think. If you take that as evidence that there's a lot of room for improvement rather than as evidence that it doesn't actually work, maybe you could scale it up and have something useful.

Also keep in mind that for space travel you can accelerate for a very long time. Accelerating at a tenth of a g would just about do it, though even that is going to require that a 10 kg thruster produce at least 10 Newtons.

 

[eot]

The quantum probability wave is not correct. Matter is governed, deterministically, by a fractal-like set. The only explanation for fractals continually coming up in nature at every level of existence is if fractals are weaved into the very fabric of our existence. Fractals interact with each other and create resonances. Time, which is simply change in the state of matter, is a fractal. This machine simply makes use of fractal resonance, but because scientists need to pretend that everything is a perfect sphere with perfect behavior, they dismiss fractals but accept quantum mechanics because they prefer "lol random" over "this shit is really fucking messy". Guess what scientists aka flip floppers, the behavior of shit in real life is messy as hell!

If you want to propose a theory describing "fractal resonance" then go ahead. Quantum mechanics may be imperfect, but it has a tremendous track record. Physics doesn't claim to describe reality, it just predicts how it behaves with some degree of accuracy. For anything to be taken seriously it needs to do the same. It doesn't sound like you know much about the subject though.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Can't wait till Warp drives are real. Just you watch. That day will come.