I once was sitting near some workmen and a reasonably attractive blond walked past them and they wolf whistled as she walked by. She looked kinda annoyed but when they were out of eye-shot she had a huge smile on her face. But then, I also met a busty girl who was annoyed that she was walking down the street and in a 2 min time frame she got hit on by 4 or so guys.
Interesting video on street harrassment
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I once was sitting near some workmen and a reasonably attractive blond walked past them and they wolf whistled as she walked by. She looked kinda annoyed but when they were out of eye-shot she had a huge smile on her face. But then, I also met a busty girl who was annoyed that she was walking down the street and in a 2 min time frame she got hit on by 4 or so guys.
That doesn't answer my question. Do you have an answer?
DerZuhälter;123711551 said:
Hoo boy. I might just be rising to the bait here (I noticed you even used the "Brad Pitt defence" of harassment) but...
There are actually many reasons why women want to dress "provocatively" that have nothing whatsoever to do with wanting creepy harassment and catcalls. Some dress in less clothing because of the hot weather (if wearing short shorts is what makes you feel comfortable on a hot summer day, then hey, go for it. No-one should harass you for it either). Many dress because those clothes simply make them feel good about themselves; they're proud of their own shape, and like to wear clothes that make them feel empowered. It is not an open invitation for people to catcall, wolf-whistle, verbally harass, ogle or publicly shame women.
Harassment isn't inevitable, and it's not human nature - that's an utterly terrible excuse for bad behaviour, essentially along the same line as "boys will be boys." Harassment and creepy behaviour should never be considered an acceptable reaction to women showing skin. The only people who should be publicly shamed are the harassers themselves.
The Librarian
Banned
Yeah, I have an easy answer, but I'm not inclined to give it because you don't realize you're wrongly placing the onus on the woman for the disgusting behavior some men make.
You know, victim-blaming.
Going outside is going to heavily increase the chance of something happening no matter what she wears so better to just stay inside.
It's quite normal to place the onus for would be victims to change the way they go about day to day life than it is for those who would assail them.
I'll never forget when I was younger doing road construction, using the chest-high jack hammer roadside and all those women ogled me like I was a piece of meat in the early morning peak hour. I can only imagine what came out of their mouths as their lips move and their eyes lingered on my innocent youthfulness. Fortunately, my expandable earplugs blocked all. Oh, sure you can say I asked for it with my tiny Yakka workshorts and being shirtless, and maybe my eyes should've been on the job but but why can't I express myself without being objectified? Besides it was 27 degrees(celsius) at 8 am. I still feel violated to this day.
Okay, I now realize I'm wrongly placing the onus on the woman for the disgusting behavior some men make.
Now, can you answer the question? It really doesn't make sense to me.
The Librarian
Banned
No you don't because you're still trying to get an answer to the question.
Because that is an unreasonable "solution". Wearing a skirt that shows the bottom of your ass cheeks like the girl in the video versus wearing an appropriately lengthed skirt is not unreasonable.
Obviously, l because I am genuinely curious and would like you to enlighten me
Sure but they are trying to draw a correlation to catcalling to sexual assault. One of them explicitly refers to it as a gateway for assault.
I would and already have argued in this thread that catcalling isn't even necessary.
The only thing I disagree with is the implication that people who catcall are the same people who randomly grope without any provocation other than a woman existing. The mentality to randomly touch strangers is a very different mindset because it's clear the goals are different. The motivations needed to conclude that goal is valid are only related so much.
John Kowalski
Banned
Jeez. You don't think that's horribly tactless of you to say?
What about women who get assaulted wearing skirts that reach their ankles? how could they have prevented that? chainmail?
Asking someone to not wear something they like or find comfortable so you won't assault them is unreasonable. How about you just not assault them.
DerZuhälter
Member
The victim of being talked to? Being approached?
This is the ridiculous rhetorics of american "everything is offensive" culture. Maybe I need to live over there for a longer period to get it, but man some stuff sounds really outlandish.
Defining approaching or talking in a non-threatening, non-explicit way to women in general as harassment, just because it happens to you X times a day, and it is a huge timehog, would render social interactions between strangers to zero. It's bothering sure, and you can hate it if you want to, but building it up as something that should be lawfully illegal, just as assault is, to come back to the video, just plain stinks.
Is that the society you want to live in? I sure as hell don't.
Explicit catcalling is a social problem that is completely a different matter than the so called "street harassment", which seems to walk a thin line between approaching people completely normal and civil and just obnoxiously trying to hit on someone.
I think that if that video wanted to illustrate a better point, the girl being filmed while guys catcalled her should have worn less provocative clothing.
Moff
Member
I'd have to agree with you. the "gateway drug" comment is wrong.
I think we have established several times on gaf that rape/sexual assault isnt related to sexy clothing at all, but depends mostly on opportunity. to there is definitely a connection between the groper/sexual assault and rape. but not really between catcalling and assault/rape, because I definitely see a connection between sexy clothing and catcalling.
so yeah, I dont support the "gateway drug" conclusion, but that doesnt change that catcalling is disgusting.
First of all, saying that wearing "less revealing" clothes is an acceptable solution for harassment prevention is essentially treating it as an inevitability, something that women need to protect themselves from like the rain or bad weather, rather than a crappy decision that another human being decides to inflict upon another.
Secondly, I've answered the reason why women still wear short skirts and the like above - it's not necessarily about attracting men's clothing:
Finally, your "solution" is also ignoring the fact that women still get harassed just for being women, not because they were wearing the "wrong" clothing.
ExplodingKetchup
Member
You're right. I should go outside in a giant bag. Just a huge, baggy bodysuit that shows no skin. I should never wear what I like because someone might find it too hard to control their need to tell me they want to fuck me.
The Librarian
Banned
They're just walking down the street. Leave them alone.DerZuhälter;123713375 said:
There's nothing they could do, and the men are at fault for that.
But for those that do wear them as short as the girl in the video, that is obviously increasing the likelihood of something like that happening.
If I knowingly walk down a dark alley in the worst part of a city and get mugged, aren't I somewhat at fault for knowing the potential risk of my actions and yet carrying them out anyway?
John Kowalski
Banned
If you did watch the video but did no understand that catcalling is far from a mere reaction to provocative wear then i don't really know what you took form it. You still think that the only purpose of a woman to wear provocative clothing is to, well, provoke responses and attention from all men. And why that isn't the case is such a simple matter that i don't believe you cannot figure it out on your own.
There's no median between ass cheek skirts and full body baggy sweatshirts?
ExplodingKetchup
Member
DerZuhälter;123713375 said:
Do you seriously define some guy coming up to and yelling "Hey sexy!" As you walk by not threatening? IT IS!
Guys aren't approaching women and going, "Hey, I think you're pretty," (which is still kind of awkward and can actually be intimidating, too) they're yelling at them, they're following them around, and they're touching them.
But good to know you think that faux censorship is more important than people's sense of safety.
Or the guys could .... not bother to make a comment. Women are asking us to have some restraint. Personally I'm ok with that request as long as it isn't a printed message. Besides a woman doesn't have to wear provocative clothing to get calls. They just need to be remotely good looking. Trust me on this one.
The only thing I disagree with Dax is her assertion that all form of catcalling is bad because just saying hello seductively is catcalling. If a guy can't say hello then I don't think a woman like her appreciates we are social creatures.
The Librarian
Banned
If you seductively said hello to me as I was going about my business, how is that not bad?
ExplodingKetchup
Member
Maybe this will help you understand why your "Just don't wear clothes that are my definition of provocative" view is so shitty
It's not exactly the same, but it still shows why the victim blaming attitude you have is bad.
Being a women is an inherent risk. I can see where you are coming from but i think it would make little difference. Attractive women get the same reaction from wearing jeans as they do from wearing a dress or "appropriate" skirts.
The problem we as a society should be focusing on is people thinking forms of dress are an invitation to act how they please with little regard for the other party.
DerZuhälter
Member
Good to know that your insecurities of believing any man saying "Hi" might rape you, should be the definition of human conduct.
D
Deleted member 74300
Unconfirmed Member
This one fucking asshole pedo scum made some comment about my younger sister holding a fishing pole while we were walking downtown to go fishing at the river. Knew he was talking about us because we were the only ones with them. I so wanted to cast and hook his eyes out with mine. So yeah fuck people like him and in the video.
When I was a small kid, some men used to do this to my mother when walking down the street together with me. Those were awkward moments that made me feel pretty uncomfortable at times, I'm glad for her it stopped.
And.. Yes, there are also girls who do this, although those are very rare.
And.. Yes, there are also girls who do this, although those are very rare.
DerZuhälter
Member
By that definition even every kind of advertisment would be "bad".
ExplodingKetchup
Member
DerZuhälter;123714071 said:
Yeah I actually do feel that way, dude. You don't know what it's like being a small woman. You just don't. I don't know what these guys' intentions are. I don't know what he's going to do and I wouldn't be able to fight back. It's not just me who feels this way. Plenty of women I know feel intimidated and scared by guys all the damn time.
Get some fucking empathy holy shit.
The phrase "Hey sexy" or similar words and even shouting them aren't a threat. What threat is being implied?
What they are is an embarrassment and oppressive.
The Librarian
Banned
Answer my question, please.
That is horrible analogy for this topic.Maybe this will help you understand why your "Just don't wear clothes that are my definition of provocative" view is so shitty
It's not exactly the same, but it still shows why the victim blaming attitude you have is bad.
Seriously, women get harassed or assaulted no matter what clothes they're wearing, including jeans, woollen jumpers, or even heavy overcoats that cover them up completely.
This focus on provocative and "sexy" clothing is merely deflecting the blame away from harassers and onto the recipients of the harassment.
This focus on provocative and "sexy" clothing is merely deflecting the blame away from harassers and onto the recipients of the harassment.
Yeah I don't really get good vibes from guys that approach women on the street it is a weird place to say "hi".
As a small woman myself, most men are an intimidation. Was just ...."harassed"? By one the other day and it scared the shit out of me... I put harassed in quotation beause I don't even know what to call what that was.
It's bad if you feel uncomfortable but in general you should accept as a valid form of approach because:
A) how can any conversation start without hello? You might as well say you don't want to be spoken to while trying to do your business.
B) Seductive tone is still an inflection that is meant to help express a person's attractions just like an angry, melancholy, chirpy tone expresses other emotional states. People need to use these tones to avoid confusion.
John Kowalski
Banned
It isn't a threat but it is nevertheless threatening behavior.
The Librarian
Banned
Good lord you're not getting it. If I'm going about my business and not in a place where I want to be approached, then leave women alone. Approaching some woman on the street and seductively saying hi to her IS NOT OKAY. It's creepy and uncomfortable.
Just leave me alone and let me go about my business.
DerZuhälter
Member
Oh, I'm supposed to get some fucking empathy, but should be ok with it and not be offended by it that in your mind, because I'm 6"5 and around 30yo I'm basically upgraded from potential rapist status, to rapist status as soon as I say "Hi".
How is this so hard to understand, that some men, don't like to hear that shit and are immensely offended by it?
Which is why in the future, we should just flat ask anyone who uses the provocative example, do they believe women who don't dress provocatively don't get unwanted sexual advances; instead of focusing on the specific words they use.
ExplodingKetchup
Member
DerZuhälter;123714659 said:
I don't care that you're offended. Literally not one bit. I don't care who's offended when I try to get off the fucking street because some guy is staring at me and trying to talk to me and I'm alone and it's dark.
My safety is more important than your hurt feelings.
Mr.Squirrel
Tom
Please share with the class some examples of reverse racism.
Where are you approaching these women? If it is on the street then yeah you being tall and older is threatening especially if its at night.DerZuhälter;123714659 said:
Why would anyone think approaching a woman with "hey sexy" or some John Waters "hello" is ok? Thats not only odd but tasteless. Why not say hello normally and start a normal conversation with your sexuality out of the way.
faceless007
Member
DerZuhälter;123714659 said:
You're greatly exaggerating what is considered threatening behavior, but if you still don't like the fact that women feel threatened by leering advances, you should direct your anger at the men who cause women to feel that way by cat-calling and intimidating them.
It's okay to feel that way, but that makes it impossible for guys to initiate any sort of conversation with you if you think all guys are trying to do is harass and sexually assault you.
The point you are making now is to not approach you seductively but how is that any different from approaching you for other reasons?
Just because we are preoccupied with our own things to do doesn't meant we won't get approached by strangers for random reasons. What makes being approached to possibly form a relationship less valid than other reasons to reach out to other people?
DerZuhälter
Member
Dodging the issue like raindrops.
The issue is so called "harassment" which for Dax apparently already starts with a simple "Hi". We're not talking about actual assault, we are not talking about actual rapists. Your saftey was never in jeopardy in this matter, thus I don't really care about it or your issues with it.
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