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[Aselith]

The point is that what he did wouldn't have flown in many cases if he weren't white.

Well yeah, it didn't fly when he was white either so that would be equal treatment.

The larger point is correct but that's a TERRIBLE example

 

[Timeaisis]

I call this being an asshole, but whatever.

 

[Feep]

It's important to call it out whenever it's evident. Doesn't matter if you don't see any particular importance in this one example. That story with the guy buying a belt is a good example. He wasn't murdered or anything but it was still worth informing people what happened and the reasons why.

Perhaps. But an article stating that you should look people in the eye and smile at them could also be hit with the exact same accusation. The original article did not directly mention race, at all, the social techniques contained therein *are* applicable to everyone, even if they might be less effective for a certain group.

The problem isn't with the author for writing about social engineering, really, it's with society's inherent racism. I don't think calling the author on that does anything to help with that issue.

Edit: Though if you want to call him on douchebag behavior regardless of race, no argument there

 

[xbhaskarx]

James Altucher recently posted a short piece on Quora entitled, How to Break All the Rules and Get Everything You Want.

“Don’t break the laws. Don’t kill people. Don’t steal. But most other rules can be bent.”

Sounds like an entitled douchebag....

 

[kehs]

The line at the post office was 18 people deep.

I looked around and noticed that no one among the patrons or the employees was a white man. At the Hanover Street post office, a half block off Wall Street, that was notable.

A white man walked in. He surveyed the line and confidently jetted past it, over to an employee pushing a wheeled bin across the floor. He put his hand on the employee’s back. He said, “Hey buddy … can you do me a favor? I just have this one thing.”

I also just have this one thing, I thought. And, this line is for people who have one or more things, douchebag. And, you have no right to ask a “favor” that dicks over 18 people uninvolved in granting the “favor.”

Fortunately, the mystified employee — who was not white — sent him to the back of the line.

Author has never been to a Post Office before. You can drop off bins of prepaid packages without having to make the queue.

smh

 

[Cagey]

The point is that what he did wouldn't have flown in many cases if he weren't white.

Hell, go further: the larger point argued is that the guy would not have thought to do what he did if he weren't a white male, because his white male privilege influences his actions to the extent that he comes to believe even attempting (and ultimately failing) to cut a line 18 people deep is socially acceptable. The success rate being higher is a secondary consequence.

 

[Foggy]

hah you never met my grandparents from mainland china, they're aggressive as fuck and don't care about your lines. And what is funny is that here in the Texas suburbs most white people are too polite and rarely say anything about them cutting lol It is embarrassing as hell. "

My girlfriend's father is Korean and she refuses to take him to the grocery store for this exact reason. Her mother is only slightly better about it. In fact, in my experience a lot of this happens with immigrants in certain environments. Was the article correct in asserting this dude got away with it because he's white? Almost certainly, it's just that I see this behavior more frequently in my personal life across age, culture, and race barriers so the piece strikes me as not being as provocative as it wants to be

 

[Omegasquash]

Well yeah, it didn't fly when he was white either so that would be equal treatment.

The larger point is correct but that's a TERRIBLE example

Oh I agree, there are likely a TON of other sources out there, but it doesn't excuse the fact that it happened. No one is saying that the bullish fellow is a racist. What's being said is that he wouldn't have gotten away with it if he wasn't white, from what I can see.

I think there are better examples, yes. I also think that it's important to note that it does happen, and it happens at lots of levels...this is just one of them.

Hell, go further: the larger point argued is that the guy would not have thought to do what he did if he weren't a white male, because his white male privilege influences his actions to the extent that he comes to believe even attempting (and ultimately failing) to cut a line 18 people deep is socially acceptable. The success rate being higher is a secondary consequence.

And you're out of line with the sarcasm.

 

[Kinyou]

Sounds like an entitled douchebag....

His motto is also pretty redundant since killing and stealing already breaks the law.

 

[Cagey]

My girlfriend's father is Korean and she refuses to take him to the grocery store for this exact reason. Her mother is only slightly better about it. In fact, in my experience a lot of this happens with immigrants in certain environments. Was the article correct in asserting this dude got away with it because he's white? Almost certainly, it's just that I see this behavior more frequently in my personal life across age, culture, and race barriers so the piece strikes me as not being as provocative as it wants to be

Wife's father is Korean, and boy can get it embarrassing in public when he does what he does regarding lines, customer service, servers, you name it.

But he also gets what he wants, so it's effective.

And you're out of line with the sarcasm.

Sarcasm? You misread me. What I wrote is what the author is arguing, either explicitly or implicitly.

 

[Thorakai]

.

Thank you. All I wanted was to see the discussion move into something more substantive instead of looking at posts missing the thesis of the article (its not just about being an asshole). Or getting hung up on the use of the word "life hack" and forgetting how to use context clues to get to the meat of the story.

I don't think the article does a good job of making its case, either. But I think it serves as a good way of talking about assumptions of race that comes with these "life hacks" as the word is used in the article.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

hah you never met my grandparents from mainland china, they're aggressive as fuck and don't care about your lines. And what is funny is that here in the Texas suburbs most white people are too polite and rarely say anything about them cutting lol It is embarrassing as hell.

What these articles really show is that aggressive douche bags can often get their way cus most people don't like conflict, I'm not sure how much race has to do with it. I can see white people being afraid to piss off the stereotyped "angry black man."

I appreciate your life experience, but this isn't how it works. Black people have been shot for less. Once again, the article addresses this. Women, minorities and poor people would not be given the benefit of the doubt in most of the scenarios in which this guy has achieved success for being an asshole.

I agree that most people don't enjoy conflict and confrontation but an anecdote doesn't refute the basis of the article.

 

[Aselith]

Oh I agree, there are likely a TON of other sources out there, but it doesn't excuse the fact that it happened. No one is saying that the bullish fellow is a racist. What's being said is that he wouldn't have gotten away with it if he wasn't white, from what I can see.

He did not get away with it...

 

[CrocMother]

I think "attractive privilege" is the same if not more of a factor, especially if you are an attractive woman.

 

[Bizazedo]

Cagey makes an amazing post above which hits a lot of valid points, but my other issue with the article is I've traveled a lot and partook in activities with many people from foreign countries outside the US.

Shockingly, line jumping and social engineering (described as "life hacking" here), seemed heavily prevalent if not more prevalent.

I think there's a subject and a worthwhile argument to be had here, but this article just drowns by using invalid examples that anyone of any race or creed could accomplish.

 

[Kinyou]

I think "attractive privilege" is the same if not more of a factor, especially if you are an attractive woman.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Sounds like an entitled douchebag....

He is.

http://www.jamesaltucher.com/

The Altucher Confidential: Ideas for a World out of Balance

 

[Jado]

How are any of my posts coming across that way? Wasn't dismissive or "lol'd" the article at all. I've said multiple times I agree with the basic idea, but it was poorly framed by an unintentionally misleading title.

I didn't meant you in particular, but a number of others in the thread with typical disingenuous reasons for posting (not a lick of care for the topic of racism and privilege, more interested in derailing tactics).

Being a grammar nazi is about nitpicking when someone uses "their" instead of "there" or "they're." When something is so poorly worded as to cause confusion or misunderstanding, one is not being a grammar nazi for complaining about it. When I saw the thread title was about "life hacking" my first thought was to wonder about how white privilege could possibly relate to opening a bottle with a magnet or using a toilet paper tube as a makeshift speaker.

Yes, but once you move past that and read the piece, the article writer's implied meaning becomes very clear and it becomes very easy to formulate an opinion on this that doesn't involve getting hung up on something extremely trivial.

 

[richiek]

Author has never been to a Post Office before. You can drop off bins of prepaid packages without having to make the queue.

smh

And if it's not prepaid?

 

[robotzombie]

I appreciate your life experience, but this isn't how it works. Black people have been shot for less. Once again, the article addresses this. Women, minorities and poor people would not be given the benefit of the doubt in most of the scenarios in which this guy has achieved success for being an asshole.

I agree that most people don't enjoy conflict and confrontation but an anecdote doesn't refute the basis of the article.

The entirety of the article is based only on anecdotes and conjecture, why in the world wouldn't alternative anecdotes be enough to refute it?

 

[Machine]

Yes, but once you move past that and read the piece, the article writer's implied meaning becomes very clear and it becomes very easy to formulate an opinion on this that doesn't involve getting hung up on something extremely trivial.

Maybe high school and college writing classes are not as rigorous as they once were. I was taught from an early age that good writing extends not just to the body of the text but also to introductory sentences and paragraphs. I have some issues with the piece but it is an interesting viewpoint. I just think it is dreadfully written.

 

[Aselith]

And if it's not prepaid?

Then you need to learn this ONE TRICK to save you time at the post office

 

[levious]

Exactly! If you want to leave it on the table instead of having to put the chips in a bowl.

Why can't you just put the bag on the table as it is?

 

[Bizazedo]

And if it's not prepaid?

The Post Offices around here actually have a spot where you can do everything yourself. It's full of magic and wonder, however, and many fear to learn how to utilize it and get in line.

 

[SousedLouse]

How are any of my posts coming across that way? Wasn't dismissive or "lol'd" the article at all. I've said multiple times I agree with the basic idea, but it was poorly framed by an unintentionally misleading title.

Much like how the definition of "life hacking" has just been expanded to include bullshitting your way past polite society, dismissiveness now includes asking for clarification on the first couple of paragraphs for any reason - because if it were genuine confusion, you'd just shut up and listen to your moral betters so that you can learn something for once. That's how it goes when the article you're supposed to be discussing is considered sacrosanct, even something like the one in the OP - tripe that moves from one truism to another using serious issues and gruesome deaths as little more than shaky footholds to get to a conclusion in the most roundabout way possible. A big list of contrasting examples used to drive a point home - in order to solve these issues, we need to talk about them honestly, and not be dismissive. Not just the kind of dismissive that you'd find in the dictionary, but whatever definition of the term the author or any like-minded thinker needs to get the responses they want.

 

[thespot84]

II agree that most people don't enjoy conflict and confrontation but an anecdote doesn't refute the basis of the article.

The entire basis of the article is anecdote. It's important that a non-white person 'got away' with bullying through a line because it provides evidence for the fact that it's not only white people who are able to get away with it. I believe white privilege exists but this article doesn't do a good job at getting to it.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

The entirety of the article is based only on anecdotes and conjecture, why in the world wouldn't alternative anecdotes be enough to refute it?

*sigh*

So, the examples that were used about Renisha McBride, Forrest Whitaker, and other people of color who were doing things that would be considered "harmless" if done by others, in a system that is constantly disparaging of people of color, women, and other non white participants (with studies that continually support these facts) are the same as "My asian grandparents do what they want and don't get shit for it because people are afraid of confrontation?"

It's not the same thing.

 

[Booty Patrol]

Great article. I completely understand what she's getting at.

 

[remnant]

Yes, but once you move past that and read the piece, the article writer's implied meaning becomes very clear and it becomes very easy to formulate an opinion on this that doesn't involve getting hung up on something extremely trivial.

If you don't want people to disagree with you, or interpret articles in ways you disagree with, you should probably make a blog.

It's strange than you spend so much time telling people how they should think.

 

[thespot84]

*sigh*

So, the examples that were used about Renisha McBride, Forrest Whitaker, and other people of color who were doing things that would be considered "harmless" if done by others, in a system that is constantly disparaging of people of color, women, and other non white participants (with studies that continually support these facts) are the same as "My asian grandparents do what they want and don't get shit for it because people are afraid of confrontation?"

It's not the same thing.

It's not the same thing, that's why this article is terrible (and terribly written)

You're assuming that forrest whitaker was accused of shoplifting because he was black. He actually mentioned 'customer rights'. he didn't seem to feel like it was race related. Further, according to the actual story (rather than the author's lazy paraphrasing) the store was very busy ("like 50 people deep"). So 50 people in the store, 49 of them are white and 1 of them is forrest whitaker? The 'same town' she's referring to is New York City. Unless that froyo shop frisks every black person that comes in or has a 'no whites' sign i just don't see the connection. The author wasn't there, but insists on using it as an example of racial discrimination. I find that indefensible.

You're also assuming that Renisha McBride was killed because she was black. You know what? I actually agree with you. I think that's a reasonable assumption. I think some racist white fuck who happens to always answers his door with a shotgun (so we know he presumes anyone is a threat) had an unreasonable fear that turned into him murdering her. The fact that she was black probably escalated that unreasonable fear. But how is a 'stand your ground' law case regarding someone banging on your door at 2AM the same as a dude sneaking into a ping pong event with his daughter? It isn't.

But let's get to the personal anecdote and the piece about Altucher, the crux of the article.

A) The personal anectdote. A white guy asks to cut the line in a post office, and is told to shove it. The author mentions that no one else in line was white, except she doesn't reiterate, for clarity, that she, a white person, was in line as well.

B) Altucher bullies his way into a ping pong venue that's rented out for a private party. He plays ping pong with his daughter and is subsequently ASKED TO LEAVE.

Lastly is the mention of the kid getting arrested because he was black and bought an expensive belt. I totally agree that he was arrested for being black. But the fact that he didn't see it as an issue to buy the belt in the first place contradicts the point of the article.

Regardless of the actual merits of the argument the author is trying to make she does an absolutely shit job of defending it.

EDIT: Regarding my point about the post office, I assumed from her thumbnail on the blog that she was white, but I seem to be mistaken. My point still stands, however, that she is adding a whole bunch of her own context to the post office situation to fit her own devices.

 

[Deified Data]

I never really thought about it before but rudeness really is the ultimate life hack.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

If you don't want people to disagree with you, or interpret articles in ways you disagree with, you should probably make a blog.

It's strange than you spend so much time telling people how they should think.

It's not telling people to think a certain way, but to ask them to think about what it's like for someone different than them. For some reason, some people here take personal offense at having to consider to do this, as shown by some immediately dismissive responses.

 

[thespot84]

*sigh*

So, the examples that were used about Renisha McBride, Forrest Whitaker, and other people of color who were doing things that would be considered "harmless" if done by others, in a system that is constantly disparaging of people of color, women, and other non white participants (with studies that continually support these facts) are the same as "My asian grandparents do what they want and don't get shit for it because people are afraid of confrontation?"

It's not the same thing.

Also, regardless of my feelings on this specific article, i'd love more info like the studies you mentioned. Can you provide them?

 

[AlteredBeast]

I read that horrible article start to finish and it manages to infuriate me more than the douchebag she was writing about.

But I guess that is my innate white, male, straight, Christian, English-speaking privilege coming out.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

But I guess that is my innate white, male, straight, Christian, English-speaking privilege coming out.

What's the point of doing things like this?

 

[thespot84]

What's the point of doing things like this?

I'm pissed off because I actually think there's a point to be made here. The writing is offensively bad and actually serves to confuse the issue. I'm pissed off that she wasted an opportunity and instead gave us some ranty, awful, twitter-punctuated (twitterpated?) blog and I'm pissed off that the internet allows people get away with that shit.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

I never really thought about it before but rudeness really is the ultimate life hack.

If you get right down to it, yeah. Again, I don't think it was the best way to frame the argument (especially considering how many people are willing to dismiss the entire article based on that alone), but it's not wrong, as it were.

...

So you and I disagree here, and that's fine. I don't expect to agree with everyone on the effectiveness of these types of articles.

With that said, even if her own personal anecdotes are being used in a way that stengthens her position, it's being done so in a way to reinforce biases that most of us already know are there. My main problem with the person I quoted was the same pitfall that happens in race threads on NeoGAF, race based stories anywhere on the internet, and racial based conversations (and race relations in general) in the United States. "That story was interesting! Let me attempt to debunk it by telling you a story about my own personal experience." One is a verifiable, instutional problem, the other is "something that happened to someone I knew once". We then get into discussions like this where we're discussing everything but the meat of the actual argument, which I feel in some cases is the goal for some people.

Edit:

Also, regardless of my feelings on this specific article, i'd love more info like the studies you mentioned. Can you provide them?

I'm at work now and can't delve into this topic nearly as much as I'd like to, but googling "subconcious racial bias" is a good place to start. There was a recent test about this that really blew me away, but I can't find it right at this moment.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I read that horrible article start to finish and it manages to infuriate me more than the douchebag she was writing about.

But I guess that is my innate white, male, straight, Christian, English-speaking privilege coming out.

You should probably come up with a specific criticism.

 

[AlteredBeast]

What's the point of doing things like this?

I am not being facetious.

I don't feel outrage at anything, even at injustice like someone ignorantly suggesting that getting what you want simply by acting nice and confused, when really that is a whites-only thing.

Perhaps it's because I am all of those things and the only time I have ever felt slighted in my life was being passed on for promotions while working for a company that valued diversity above all other qualities (and I do mean ALL). I just hate her sneering attitude and writing style.

 

[JohnDoe]

I am not being facetious.

I don't feel outrage at anything, even at injustice like someone ignorantly suggesting that getting what you want simply by acting nice and confused, when really that is a whites-only thing.

Perhaps it's because I am all of those things and the only time I have ever felt slighted in my life was being passed on for promotions while working for a company that valued diversity above all other qualities (and I do mean ALL). I just hate her sneering attitude and writing style.

Okay.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Those Brits and their wacky sense of humor

 

[levious]

I am not being facetious.

I don't feel outrage at anything, even at injustice like someone ignorantly suggesting that getting what you want simply by acting nice and confused, when really that is a whites-only thing.

Perhaps it's because I am all of those things and the only time I have ever felt slighted in my life was being passed on for promotions while working for a company that valued diversity above all other qualities (and I do mean ALL). I just hate her sneering attitude and writing style.

Yeah, a minority took the job you deserved.

 

[Jado]

If you don't want people to disagree with you, or interpret articles in ways you disagree with, you should probably make a blog.

It's strange than you spend so much time telling people how they should think.

I have no problem with people interpreting an article they read a certain way. I do take issue with usual types of people coming into these threads and seeing something as trivial as "life hack" in the article title used in a certain way, and latching onto that as The Reason they can't read the full thing, analyze it carefully and get something of value from it. You move on past "life hack," and it's a straightforward (even basic) article that's braindead easy to understand.

You're in all these threads -- it's an annoying pattern and you can't deny knowing knowing what I'm talking about. It wasn't that long ago that in "women with critical voices about stuff men like" threads, Gaffers would rip on a woman's makeup and earrings before even pretending to be sincere about the topic or approaching it in a fair manner. That shit is bannable, so now we have clowns grabbing on to any little thing possible (harsh tone, "i dont like this one word" and other disapproval of writer's vocabulary, But What About Me, bigger problems in the world, this is how it's always been, Livejournal/Myspace/Tumblr, This Shit Again?!?, victim's fault if he/she hadn't done this/that, what happened 5 minutes before the video started, he didn't mean it, doing really racist thing is not racist if you didn't mean it, it's always mental illness, victim is just as bad for recording/talking back/egging on the racist/not walking away).

I am not being facetious.

I don't feel outrage at anything, even at injustice like someone ignorantly suggesting that getting what you want simply by acting nice and confused, when really that is a whites-only thing.

Perhaps it's because I am all of those things and the only time I have ever felt slighted in my life was being passed on for promotions while working for a company that valued diversity above all other qualities (and I do mean ALL). I just hate her sneering attitude and writing style.

Thanks for letting your true feelings known. Tell me, what else have minorities taken from you that you think belonged to you?

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

The article is arguing that his white-ness is one of the factors (along with his class and gender "and maybe some others") that allowed his douche bag behavior to get him what he wanted, and that these same behaviors would likely have been less successful if he were a woman, or black, or appeared to be poor / lower-class

Isn't this a bit of a false equivalency? Isn't it sort of saying that being white and being poor/lower-class are mutually exclusive when in fact they aren't?

But regarding the article: Okay, they help bring something to light. Yet these sort of articles are kind of useless in the sense that they don't propose any solution to the problems they raise awareness to. Anyone can say there's a problem; a real thinker can propose solutions to those problems.

And I don't think having the author letting that responsibility fall into the hands of their readers is a sound idea, when the average reader these sort of things attracts is more inclined to just buy into it, agree, and move on (or worst, use it to attack others).

EDIT: And for all the "well he wouldn't if" stuff flying around, it would be nice if the author actually tried an unbiased experiment with a white guy and a black guy, practically identical besides the obvious, and have them do the same thing with the same people to see what the reactions were. And then ask why they had that reaction.

It's nothing in an attempt to downplay what they're getting at; merely as a way to get the armchair rhetoric out of here and start using actual facts and anecdotes instead of assumptions. Because, well, that's how I learned to test hypothesis in school,...by conducting an actual experiment.

 

[Kurdel]

I think there’s value in sharing with everyone the attitudes and expectations that privileged people use to operate in the world. I often recommend that everybody, at every income level, read one copy of Forbes sometime, just to get an idea of how the rich think about money. (For instance, the word “income,” as used in Forbes, doesn’t mean “money you get from your job.” It means the money that is generated from your investments, which you can often live off of — or better — without doing what most of us would call “work.” Whether you want to be the people in Forbes or you want to be armed to do battle with them, it’s helpful to know how the 1% thinks.)

But the right way to talk about this — about “ruling your world” with mind-control (and servicepeople-control) techniques — involves acknowledging structural barriers that allow some people to do this while punishing others for trying. And it involves a healthy discussion of whether we should.

It would help if she could have used some of her article to identify some of those barriers, or list ways people are punished for trying.

And the last sentence doesn't make sense to me, no matter how many times I re-read it.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I am not being facetious.

I don't feel outrage at anything, even at injustice like someone ignorantly suggesting that getting what you want simply by acting nice and confused, when really that is a whites-only thing.

Perhaps it's because I am all of those things and the only time I have ever felt slighted in my life was being passed on for promotions while working for a company that valued diversity above all other qualities (and I do mean ALL). I just hate her sneering attitude and writing style.

Once is a fluke. Multiple times is on you.

 

[levious]

I just wish white people would stop blaming educated minorities for their own shortcomings.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I'm not sure the use of anecdotes to prove a point becomes legitimately useful just because it provides a convenient example for something "we all know is there".

 

[titiklabingapat]

This is a really dumb question, but is there reason to believe people of color would be targeted more often by hitch-hiker killers? I feel like the most "likely victims" would be young white women, given their status as the most desirable for potential abusers.

I'm not talking about killers or killers of hitch hikers. It's whether or not a person of color will even be given a chance to hitch hike in the first place, is my point.

edit: looks like it's already been answered

 

[thespot84]

I just wish white people would stop blaming educated minorities for their own shortcomings.

You're doing the same thing the author of the article is doing. Your IMPLANTING context that was never presented that fits your narrative. How on earth could you possible know that the person who got hired was more or less qualified?