Scottish Independence Referendum |OT| 18 September 2014 [Up: NO wins]
- Thread starter Ape Gone Insane
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Yes, he was trying to make Better Together look poor by mentioning comments in papers about driving on the right, and being more at risk of attacks by aliens.
Salmond is doing a pretty poor job, the presenter is doing a better job at questioning Darling.
Salmond wasn't referring to this article, was he?
hydrophilic attack
Member
To be fair, as shown in this thread, "independence" also seems to be a bit of an undefined variable, considering discussions about currency, institutions et cetera.
Haha not sure but I think he mentioned the Sunday Herald.
It makes me wonder if a two stage referendum wouldn't have been better. One vote to say if negotiations should start on independence, then another to decide if the terms are acceptable. No idea how that would work though.
electricshake
Member
That was a waste of 2 hours. Still undecided. And Salmond question dodging (currency plan b) was total bullshit.
Chaotic_Angel
Member
Detailing a Plan B when you're fighting for Plan A is moronic at best. Lets tell them what we'll settle for during a worst case scenario so that they don't even try to negotiate. A currency union is in the interest of the entirety of the UK. Westminster saying it won't happen is a ploy to scare you...looks like it's working too. I won't let anyone bully me into a decision.
Darling dodged so many more questions. He couldn't even bring himself to say that Scotland could be a successful independent country. Even David Cameron knows we could be.
Darling dodged so many more questions. He couldn't even bring himself to say that Scotland could be a successful independent country. Even David Cameron knows we could be.
What did you think about the aliens and pandas? You're also not going to be negotiating for currency if you don't win and telling people you don't have a Plan B isn't going to sway undecided voters.
electricshake
Member
Didn't say I was scared. I think Westminster are strong arming us, and I highly doubt there won't be currency negotiations if we do vote yes. Doesn't mean I don't want to know what our options are.
Unfortunately I missed that bit, my dad phoned me (can't believe he wasn't watching too!) So I can't comment on that. What else did he dodge?
I would've thought both sides would be trying their level best to sway undecideds but it didn't feel like they were. And Salmond's chat about aliens, pandas and driving on the right was stupid.
All in all the whole thing was infuriating.
It really annoys me that Scottish independence supporters completely and utterly refuse to acknowledge that a currency union is not going to happen.
It is political suicide for any remaining UK party to embark on one. My parents (one of whom stood as a Tory councillor) would vote for Labour if the Tories tried it.
A currency union is not happening. The disadvantages to the rest of the UK, particularly given the finance industry in Edinburgh, means we would have to be stupid to contemplate it (and also Scotland slightly balmy for wanting it given the example over the channel). Scotland is more than welcome to use the pound, but to expect a currency union is madness and in complete denial of reality at this point. The fact that no-one seems to be able to say anything other than 'everyone is lying, of course it will happen because REASONS!' does not in anyway build a credible argument.
It is political suicide for any remaining UK party to embark on one. My parents (one of whom stood as a Tory councillor) would vote for Labour if the Tories tried it.
A currency union is not happening. The disadvantages to the rest of the UK, particularly given the finance industry in Edinburgh, means we would have to be stupid to contemplate it (and also Scotland slightly balmy for wanting it given the example over the channel). Scotland is more than welcome to use the pound, but to expect a currency union is madness and in complete denial of reality at this point. The fact that no-one seems to be able to say anything other than 'everyone is lying, of course it will happen because REASONS!' does not in anyway build a credible argument.
Chaotic_Angel
Member
The damn thing kept buffering on STV Player so didn't catch it all. I think it was done mostly in jest judging by the look on Salmond's face...I personally laughed.
Salmond did direct people to where they could find the financial options available to us in regards to currency.
electricshake, I can't remember for the life of me what, specifically, was dodged, I spent most of my time swearing at the STV player. I'll watch it again tomorrow and get back to you...there was a question about agreeing with Cameron, IIRC, that was a straight yes or no and he didn't commit to either.
My question to BT/NoThanks would be in the event of a yes vote what would they be trying to negotiate in terms of currency. What contingency plans would they have in place?
I hope that this is an ironic comment, but unfortunately suspect not...
QuicheFontaine
Member
In what sense are Scots not free?
Of course it is. It's an open secret that it will happen. Everyone knows it, but Unionist campaigners pretend it isn't on the cards to damage the Yes campaign.
This is exactly my point.
It isn't an open secret. You have *one* supposed report from *one* maybe-real unnamed politician saying it will happen. Meanwhile you have each major party saying it won't - heck Balls even saying he would resign over it were he chancellor.
All you can do is say 'of course it's happening, by MAGIC!' Despite having zero evidence or proof and an insane amount of contradictory evidence that you keep trying to hand wave away.
Furthermore, it is utterly illogical for it to happen. The RUK would be propping up Edinburgh's finance industry for absolutely no benefit or gain to the rest of the RUK, and putting our economy at risk. Similarly, it is political suicide for any RUK party to attempt this.
You need to stop relying on 'it is known' as your entire sum argument for a currency union, because so far that's all that's been shown in this thread repeatedly and it flatly doesn't stack up at all.
Quite the opposite actually...
Salmond was laughably poor - as expected. Hopefully his dismal responses, refusal to answer simple questions, and having to resort to personal attacks constantly, will have swayed a few percentage of the undecided to the 'No' side. He is utterly deluded in his conviction that a currency union *will* happen - even claiming that everyone but he was wrong.
Pathetic.
Darling should have really pushed the EU angle, and the fact that an independent Scotland would not be able to join for at least c. 5 years.
Pathetic.
Darling should have really pushed the EU angle, and the fact that an independent Scotland would not be able to join for at least c. 5 years.
Aside from a politician's word, where's the certainty that it won't happen? Is not in the unionists interest to say 'Yes, it's a possibility' as it's one of the big worries for the undecided/some of the no voters.
QuicheFontaine
Member
A politician's word might not carry that much weight these days, but it's not just one politician. It's cross-party: everyone who could feasibly have the job of chancellor this time next year.
So because Yes say that a currency union is on the table, that means there doesn't need to be a plan B? That's what annoys me most about Yes, its all 'Hoho when we win things will be different. Promise! Just trust in us!'.
It doesn't make sense for a currency union. It just doesn't.
It doesn't make sense for a currency union. It just doesn't.
CrashBandicoot
Member
I'll be honest, the currency is the only thing that puts a little doubt in my mind.
What are the main reasons we couldn't just get a Scottish pound and have full control over it?
What are the main reasons we couldn't just get a Scottish pound and have full control over it?
Yes but they will kick and scream and scream and scream and call everyone a bully until they get one.
That'll work!
It would've taken Salmond five minutes to go through this...
Oh look!
A pretty little table with a whole 10 boxes that has all the answers!
Because Scotland might as well collectively take a dump in a large box and try to sell that on the open markets for what it would be worth.
CyclopsRock
Member
Scotland could, but generally the smaller a currency's user base is, the more volatile it is (both from external and internal forces; Exchange rates and central banking actions respectively being the most significant of those).
CrashBandicoot
Member
Right now you get 3.33 glass Irn Bru bottles to the pound.
I can only assume that the poll in this thread which puts the 'Yes' vote way ahead mainly includes 'foreign' voters because I haven't seen one internal poll that reflects that number. The numbers largely haven't moved in the last 6 months and I believe (but could be wrong) that no 'major' poll conducted in Scotland has ever had the Yes vote ahead of the No.
Did anyone else notice in last night's debate how Salmond kept coming from behind his podium to answer questions? I believe he's working with an American 'advisor' and there's no doubt that was one of his suggestions.
While that might work in the US (it's seen as a way of engaging the audience directly, removing the barrier of the podium) it's just feels like the tactics of the 'snake oil' salesman.
In the US I imagine Darling's slow and steady wins the race, dull persona would sink like a rock in the polls but here it's seen as the solid, less flashy alternate.
Did anyone else notice in last night's debate how Salmond kept coming from behind his podium to answer questions? I believe he's working with an American 'advisor' and there's no doubt that was one of his suggestions.
While that might work in the US (it's seen as a way of engaging the audience directly, removing the barrier of the podium) it's just feels like the tactics of the 'snake oil' salesman.
In the US I imagine Darling's slow and steady wins the race, dull persona would sink like a rock in the polls but here it's seen as the solid, less flashy alternate.
QuicheFontaine
Member
There's been a total of one poll where Yes came out ahead. Who conducted said poll? Why, the SNP of course!
And yeah, the poll on Gaf is not analogous to Scotland. It's being skewed by many of the "I hope Scotland gets its freedom" posters, who seem to think Scotland is some kind of vassal state.
kurtrussell
Banned
It got picked up on a lot in the #ScotDecides feed. The Yes crowd praised his interaction and the No crowd called it for a cheap trick.
Ultimately, the fact that it wasn't seamless and noticed by both camps means it was a total fail.
CyclopsRock
Member
I think there's also a difference in priorities too - Salmond has an investment in a future independent Scotland (insomuch as he'd want to be its Prime Minister) where as Darling doesn't - so I guess the good's that they're selling aren't quite the same, and thus their manner of selling them.
I don't think there's any evidence for that as a significant factor. I took a look at the dollar exchange rate for a bunch of currencies over the last year and compared the high as a % of low.
In order of population:
Indian Rupee: 117% (high as % of low)
Euro: 106%
English Pound: 112%
Canadian Dollar: 110%
Danish Kroner: 105%
Swiss Franc: 106%
Icelandic Kroner: 110%
To be frank, as someone who doesn't want Scotland to leave (Scottish fiancé, Scottish family yada yada), the argument for not having their own currency is more emotional than practical.
Fundamentally, the yes campaign identified very early on that having a Scottish currency was a *massive* vote loser. People will not vote to change their currency over to Scottish dollars or the equivalent. It would have killed the entire campaign stone dead from the start. That's why we've had this constant hand waving and jiggery pokery that basically boils down 'trust us, they are lying and will commit political suicide to give us what we want'.
There is also the issue of having to change every till and cash register in Scotland, every business transaction etc - potentially a massive and significant cost to business's.
But regardless of pro's and con's of a Scottish currency, the people living in Scotland have been very clear they don't want one which leaves us in the current position. It's also why the no campaign have focused on it - it's a huge key issue for people.
Fundamentally, the yes campaign identified very early on that having a Scottish currency was a *massive* vote loser. People will not vote to change their currency over to Scottish dollars or the equivalent. It would have killed the entire campaign stone dead from the start. That's why we've had this constant hand waving and jiggery pokery that basically boils down 'trust us, they are lying and will commit political suicide to give us what we want'.
There is also the issue of having to change every till and cash register in Scotland, every business transaction etc - potentially a massive and significant cost to business's.
But regardless of pro's and con's of a Scottish currency, the people living in Scotland have been very clear they don't want one which leaves us in the current position. It's also why the no campaign have focused on it - it's a huge key issue for people.
You still haven't cited your reasons for a currency union being something "everyone knows will happen" when there is much evidence to the contrary.
I haven't explained why I think the sun will rise in the east tomorrow either.
The people who are pretending it won't happen are invested in preventing Scotland's return to the world stage; there have been too many slips from within the Westminster establishment (but not necessarily the Unionist camp) that - coupled with the mutual benefit England and Scotland would derive in the short to medium term - make the notion that a currency union in any form is not on the cards, laughable.
and your sources...?
lol
You say this like they somehow had their freedom taken away and not something they willingly joined.
So to summarise - you have absolutely no idea at all and it's purely down to a gut feeling you have.
Sorry, but you've been pressed multiple times on this and have yet to provide a single response that goes beyond conspiracy theory territory, and at the same time denying the multiple reasons why this will next happen.
Because REASONS seems to be your precise argument, period.
GingerNathan
Member
Yeah but you could explain why the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, you clearly can't explain why there will be a monetary union other than repeating Salmond's rhetoric of it's better for both countries without explaining why and describing any opposition to this outcome as bullying.
If a rUk political party (in the event of a yes) agrees to a union after it being the main defence for the No vote they'll be committing political suicide.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
What? Scotland has been part of the Union since 1707, what great achievements on the "world stage" were the Scots party to prior to that?
The Scottish Enlightenment was a RESULT of the act of union, not something that was suppressed by it.
And quite honestly, given how marginal the present UK has become in terms of global importance, an independent Scotland is frankly irrelevent - as is to be expected by a state with a population of less than 6million.
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