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[ramuh]

Do you know what the words "also includes" mean?

Because you just posted statistics about general homicide, which includes justifiable homicide. It also includes non-justifiable homicide.

Ah thanks for pointing that out! It still answers my question of victim race by police shootings (my earlier post). I'll edit to say ALL cop shootings including justified homicides in my posts!

 

[Kozak]

GF was not with him at that time, and again he didn't comply, if you are being told to drop your weapon at gun point by police officers it isn't your time to have a forum discussion. You drop what ever it is you are holding, what about that is so hard to understand?

Why the fuck should Black people have to understand that if a cop is threatening them that they have to drop everything and give in even if they did nothing wrong? They should just "get it" because thats how things are right?

I chase my cousin all the time in supermarkets with toy guns and swords. I have yet to be shot or reported to the police.

 

[Rockyrock]

Just saw this on my twitter. Before anyone asks, the vigil and subsequent riot, are for Michael Brown who was shot and killed by police. He was unarmed.

whoops.

wrong massive cop fuck up.

 

[commedieu]

Why the fuck should Black people have to understand that if a cop is threatening them that they have to drop everything and give in even if they did nothing wrong? They should just "get it" because thats how things are right?

I chase my cousin all the time in supermarkets with toy guns and swords. I have yet to be shot or reported to the police.

Well Kozak,

Because things are different in this country for you if you are black.

 

[SamuelSupreme]

probably shouldn't have been black while holding a toy



WOW

racists gonna racist

My brother are you surprised?

 

[Clockwork]

Why the fuck should Black people have to understand that if a cop is threatening them that they have to drop everything and give in even if they did nothing wrong? They should just "get it" because thats how things are right?

At the time I doubt he was even able to process what was going on. I know I wouldn't be able to.

 

[mre]

It clealy states the staticics are about "justified homicides" before the data.

This section also includes information about justifiable homicide—certain willful killings that must be reported as justifiable or excusable. In the UCR Program, justifiable homicide is defined as and limited to:

Whether is "justified" or not is not the point. It was reported as such.

The justified homicide by peace officers data is collected here: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc.../crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl14.xls

In 2010 there were 387, but it does not go into the race of the victims.

The percentages you cited for race was based on all homicides from 2010.

 

[mr2xxx]

Hopefully the tape surfaces.

 

[Volimar]

whoops.

wrong massive cop fuck up.

So hard to keep track. There ought to be trading cards.

 

[ramuh]

The justified homicide by peace officers data is collected here: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc.../crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl14.xls

In 2010 there were 387, but it does not go into the race of the victims.

The percentages you cited for race was based on all homicides from 2010.

I've edited my posts to reflect that.

 

[Toxi]

Ah thanks for pointing that out! It still answers my question of victim race by police shootings (my earlier post). I'll edit to say ALL cop shootings including justified homicides in my posts!

The statistic you linked to isn't about police shootings, it's about all homicides in the United States.

Here's all the information before that part you quoted, which clearly state that it's not just justifiable homicides, nor just homicides by peace officers.

The Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program of the FBI collects supplementary homicide data that provides information regarding the age, sex, and race of the murder victim and offender; the type of weapon used; the relationship of the victim to the offender; and the circumstance surrounding the incident. (Though strongly encouraged to provide supplementary data for each murder reported, law enforcement agencies are not required to do so.) Data gleaned from these supplemental reports are provided in this section.

This section also includes information about justifiable homicide—certain willful killings that must be reported as justifiable or excusable. In the UCR Program, justifiable homicide is defined as and limited to:

• The killing of a felon by a peace officer in the line of duty.
• The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen. Because these killings are determined through law enforcement investigation to be justifiable, they are tabulated separately from murder and nonnegligent manslaughter. Justifiable homicide information can be found in Expanded Homicide Data Table 14, “Justifiable Homicide, by Weapon, Law Enforcement, 2006–2010” and Expanded Homicide Data Table 15, “Justifiable Homicide, by Weapon, Private Citizen, 2006–2010.”
• Overview
• Of the 12,996 murder victims in 2010 for which supplemental data were received, most (77.4 percent) were male. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 1.)
• Concerning murder victims for whom race was known, 50.4 percent were black, 47.0 percent were white, and 2.6 percent were of other races. Race was unknown for 152 victims. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 2.)

 

[Faustek]

So how come no tape has surfaced yet?
I have come back from work, gone to sleep and still no "hard evidence" to backup the dumb ass witness' report or the cops.

I have to ask, how much are they trying to rework the tape to show a beneficial viewpoint for the cops?

 

[Toxi]

I've edited my posts to reflect that.

Edit: This report includes all reported homicides by police based on color, including "justified" homicides.

Edit: This includes all police homicides reports, including "justified" homicides.

You've misunderstood our point. Those aren't people killed by the police. Those are people killed period, whether it be by a police officer or by a serial killer. Your statistic has nothing to do with the point you were trying to make about cops killing people.

 

[BronsonLee]

So how come no tape has surfaced yet?
I have come back from work, gone to sleep and still no "hard evidence" to backup the dumb ass witness' report or the cops.

I have to ask, how much are they trying to rework the tape to show a beneficial viewpoint for the cops?

I don't think we'll ever see the tape, and if we do, it won't be for a long, long time.

 

[Spectromixer]

Can't believe this happened like 15 minutes from where I live.

 

[ramuh]

You've misunderstood our point. Those aren't people killed by the police. Those are people killed period, whether it be by a police officer or by a serial killer. Your statistic has nothing to do with the point you were trying to make about cops killing people.

I've reedited to list all justified homicides by police (no race was included). Thanks for the help in clearing that up.

And it wasn't a point I was trying to make. It was questioned I poised.

 

[Jmanunknown]

Are there any photos of the alleged toy gun yet?

Honestly, this story doesn't really surprise me because cops are trained to assume the worst when someone raises a firearm looking device at them or other people. Also, just because he says out loud that it's a toy isn't reason enough for everyone to trust his word. We only see it as ridiculous now because we see it in hindsight with the knowledge that it was in fact a toy. I don't really see it as a black and white thing either considering I've also seen numerous stories like this with cops shooting even younger kids who point toy BB guns at them that are modeled after real firearms. I don't really see the much-talked about racial angle here that some people are debating. There just isn't enough concrete information yet to form a real stance here.

The racial part comes from two fools who followed the innocent person who was gunned down while shopping. You cannot go oops my bad after someone gets killed. Real life is not a video game people do not have more then one life unless you believe in reincarnation. Innocent people's lives should not be thrown away because of mistakes that could have been easily avoided especially ones that can be solved by simply asking questions instead of shooting first.

 

[Faustek]

I don't think we'll ever see the tape, and if we do, it won't be for a long, long time.

I don't get it.


But are they really going to force it down that road again? Do nothing, drag it out until it just pops and people start rioting? It would seem the most cost efficient and correct thing to do in these higher profile cases would be to jack of the beehive and really show that you're working on it instead of ignoring them as you have tried to do prior. Read the RTA situation.

Please don't riot.

Spoiler

I'll understand if you do but don't

 

[Jmanunknown]

Are there any photos of the alleged toy gun yet?

Honestly, this story doesn't really surprise me because cops are trained to assume the worst when someone raises a firearm looking device at them or other people. Also, just because he says out loud that it's a toy isn't reason enough for everyone to trust his word. We only see it as ridiculous now because we see it in hindsight with the knowledge that it was in fact a toy. I don't really see it as a black and white thing either considering I've also seen numerous stories like this with cops shooting even younger kids who point toy BB guns at them that are modeled after real firearms. I don't really see the much-talked about racial angle here that some people are debating. There just isn't enough concrete information yet to form a real stance here.

I also call bs on your theory that this is not a black/white issue. Find one story where a white kid plays with a toy gun and is killed.

 

[Ganhyun]

Are there any photos of the alleged toy gun yet?

Yes, posted twice at least one the first page. Its not a toy. Poor journalism keeps calling it that. Its a BB/Pellet gun that is designed to look real for Airsoft players.

I hope that helps Aurongel.

 

[ramuh]

I also call bs on your theory that this is not a black/white issue. Find one story where a white kid plays with a toy gun and is killed.

Find me evidence that this was tragedy is racially motivated because opinions don't count. Evidence does. Recording of the cop pre-tradegy spouting off about how he hates African-Americans etc.

 

[Monocle]

Don't you all know that The Black can magically turn toys into deadly weapons? It's an actual true fact.

I have nothing but disgust and contempt for swaggering dolts who think they're the most special thing in the world because they found a way to make everyone around them uncomfortable.

 

[FeenixRising]

http://www.colorofcrime.com



If someone can prove to me this is bullshit I will withdraw my comment. But I just constantly see all this media hype about whites doing blacks injustice yet I never see any such reporting when the opposite occurs. Of course racism played a part in this and various other cases like it. Of course it did. I'm not justifying racism of ANY kind. All I am saying is that white people get the short end of the stick in the media where as black people get the short end of the stick in the incidents. I just don't like the sensationalism of the racist element of things that only further fuels racism on a whole. As someone on the previous page told me to just ignore it I feel like a lot of damage could be dealt to racism if people (specifically the media) didn't hype it up all the time and raise tensions unnecessarily.

white supremacist websites is the new wave on GAF now?!

I... just...

wow.

 

[Valhelm]

Find me evidence that this was tragedy is racially motivated because opinions don't count. Evidence does. Recording of the cop pre-tradegy spouting off about how he hates African-Americans etc.

Just because the cop isn't personally racist doesn't mean race was not involved. I doubt most police under a certain age knowingly hate Black people, but the American police system is one that encourages racial profiling and shoot-first behavior. You don't have to say horrible things to perpetuate institutional racism.

 

[TAJ]

Are there any photos of the alleged toy gun yet?

Honestly, this story doesn't really surprise me because cops are trained to assume the worst when someone raises a firearm looking device at them or other people. Also, just because he says out loud that it's a toy isn't reason enough for everyone to trust his word. We only see it as ridiculous now because we see it in hindsight with the knowledge that it was in fact a toy. I don't really see it as a black and white thing either considering I've also seen numerous stories like this with cops shooting even younger kids who point toy BB guns at them that are modeled after real firearms. I don't really see the much-talked about racial angle here that some people are debating. There just isn't enough concrete information yet to form a real stance here.

Except that according to the couple's own account the other shoppers weren't concerned about the guy, probably because they could tell the gun was harmless and he wasn't actually pointing it at people.

 

[ramuh]

I have nothing but disgust and contempt for swaggering dolts who think they're the most special thing in the world because they found a way to make everyone around them uncomfortable.

People who do this disgust me. Every time I see something like this I will call the police. It's not good for public order IMO.

 

[Toxi]

Yes, posted twice at least one the first page. Its not a toy. Poor journalism keeps calling it that. Its a BB/Pellet gun that is designed to look real for Airsoft players.

I hope that helps Aurongel.

Airsoft guns are toys. I'm not sure how you're can argue otherwise. They are purely for entertainment.

Again, this reminds me of people trying to argue that 17 year old Trayvon Martin (AKA a child) shouldn't be called a child because "it's an emotionally charged term" or "he's tall".

 

[Clockwork]

Find me evidence that this was tragedy is racially motivated because opinions don't count. Evidence does. Recording of the cop pre-tradegy spouting off about how he hates African-Americans etc.

Do you think the call to the police reflected racial bias? I suspect it did.

Tbh, I place more blame on the people that called instead of the officers. For all the police knew it was a real/valid threat based on the information provided. Post officer arrival it gets a little more gray, but something tells me (based on current events) that the victim's race didn't do him any favors in this situation.

 

[J10]

Find me evidence that this was tragedy is racially motivated because opinions don't count. Evidence does. Recording of the cop pre-tradegy spouting off about how he hates African-Americans etc.

Seems likely.

The "few bad apples" argument has to be retired, or we have to come up with a new definition for the word 'few':

Farrar and his small police force have become the poster boys of body-worn cameras...

...the year-long trial period ending in February saw an 88 percent drop in complaints against police and a 60 percent reduction in uses of force by the police. And these steep declines occurred even though the cameras were in use only about half the time.​

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/08/nypd-cameras-rialto-farrar-bloomberg.html

In 2011, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 685,724 times.
605,328 were totally innocent (88 percent).
350,743 were black (53 percent).
223,740 were Latino (34 percent).
61,805 were white (9 percent).
341,581 were aged 14-24 (51 percent).​

http://www.nyclu.org/content/stop-and-frisk-data

The Los Angeles Police Commission is investigating how half of the recording antennas in the Southeast Division went missing, seemingly as a way to evade new self-monitoring procedures that the Los Angeles Police Department imposed last year.
​

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/lapd-cops-disabling-recorders-cops-either-them/

There were 10,000 abuse complaints filed against the Chicago PD between 2002 and 2004

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/seven-reasons-police-brutality-is-systematic-not-anecdotal/​

Criticisms against the entire police force are not generalizations, they are backed by empirical data.

Feel free to ignore the patterns and insist we're pulling the outrage out of our asses.

 

[Jmanunknown]

Find me evidence that this was tragedy is racially motivated because opinions don't count. Evidence does. Recording of the cop pre-tradegy spouting off about how he hates African-Americans etc.

I have already provided enough evidence from the two fools assuming he was robbing the place and racial profiling him and the guy being dead should be proof enough.

 

[ramuh]

Just because the cop isn't personally racist doesn't mean race was not involved. I doubt most police under a certain age knowingly hate Black people, but the American police system is one that encourages racial profiling and shoot-first behavior. You don't have to say horrible things to perpetuate institutional racism.

There could be truth this statement. I thought Toy Guns were supposed to not look like real weapons for this reason. Does BB guns count as Gun Hardware or Toy Guns? Whats the age to purchase something like that?

Do you think the call to the police reflected racial bias? I suspect it did.

Tbh, I place more blame on the people that called instead of the officers. For all the police knew it was a real/valid threat based on the information provided.

Agreed. They probably racist losers that did this as a joke. And got an innocent citizen killed. Disgusting.

 

[Valhelm]

Do you think the call to the police reflected racial bias? I suspect it did.

Tbh, I place more blame on the people that called instead of the officers. For all the police knew it was a real/valid threat based on the information provided.

My guess is that concerned patrons (who may have been consciously racist) called the police and described a "Black male, mid-to-late-twenties, with a gun". The police officer (who may have been consciously racist) "filled in the blanks" on the drive over, and was sure that the man was robbing the store.

The police officer arrives, sees the gun, and shoots the man. Knowing that he fucked up, the police officer then tells him to drop the weapon in hopes of looking better, even though the man is dying.

 

[TAJ]

Yes, posted twice at least one the first page. Its not a toy. Poor journalism keeps calling it that. Its a BB/Pellet gun that is designed to look real for Airsoft players.

It's absolutely a toy. Easy Bake Ovens burned some dumbass kids, but they're still toys.
When I was a kid the apartment management knew that I was using the hillside across from the front of our apartment as a shooting range and didn't give a fuck... because it was a toy.

And you just used the word 'players' as in 'play', as in kids' game.

 

[Monocle]

People who do this disgust me. Every time I see something like this I will call the police. It's not good for public order IMO.

Yep, nothing good can come of brandishing firearms in public. I take it as an implied threat.

 

[lexi]

Find me evidence that this was tragedy is racially motivated because opinions don't count. Evidence does. Recording of the cop pre-tradegy spouting off about how he hates African-Americans etc.

You're not a racist unless you loudly exclaim pejorative slurs on camera, apparently.

 

[Darren870]

I also call bs on your theory that this is not a black/white issue. Find one story where a white kid plays with a toy gun and is killed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/09/u...gun-replicas-dangers.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/23/andy-lopez_n_4152819.html

And in case you don't consider latinos white then here is one from 6 days ago:

http://www.9news.com/story/news/loc...ecurity-guard-air-soft-gun-shooting/13521583/

Its not always a black/white issue...

---

I'd rather see the news talk about these guns and how they look too realistic and how they are considered "toys".

However, that isn't how the news works. If a black man is killed holding one then its due to racial issues. If its a white or latino THEN it seems to be more about how these guns look too realistic.

 

[ramuh]

You're not a racist unless you loudly exclaim pejorative slurs on camera, apparently.

I was asking for evidence pertaining to this thread, this incident. Not every other incident that ever occurred. You can't just label somebody something just by association.

 

[TAJ]

Find me evidence that this was tragedy is racially motivated because opinions don't count. Evidence does. Recording of the cop pre-tradegy spouting off about how he hates African-Americans etc.

This was actually why I wanted to see the Facebook pages of the people who called the police before, now that you mention it.

 

[Rastafarian42]

Shit sounds so fucked up I really need to know what happened in this situation to comment any further.

 

[DoktorEvil]

My guess is that concerned patrons (who may have been consciously racist) called the police and described a "Black male, mid-to-late-twenties, with a gun". The police officer (who may have been consciously racist) "filled in the blanks" on the drive over, and was sure that the man was robbing the store.

The police officer arrives, sees the gun, and shoots the man. Knowing that he fucked up, the police officer then tells him to drop the weapon in hopes of looking better, even though the man is dying.

We have the 911 call. I posted it a while back.

The cop responded to how the callers were talking to 911. The marine and his wife claim the deceased was giving "dehumanizing stares" and "was waving the gun all over the place and pointing it at children".

Cops, only trained for certain instances and not certainly for a man who's claimed to have an assault weapon, shoot because a man with assault rifle "waving in the air" is deemed a thread based on false information. So now we have false information plus trigger happy cops.

Whether or not racial bias was in the cops is up in the air, but it was certainly there by the fucks who called 911.

Plus, apparently someone else died from a heart attack as a result of the shooting, so that's 2 lives snuffed out for doing nothing more than living their lives. It's hard to be an optimistic person when these stories add up very quickly.

 

[Jmanunknown]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/09/u...gun-replicas-dangers.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/23/andy-lopez_n_4152819.html

And in case you don't consider Latinos white then here is one from 6 days ago:

http://www.9news.com/story/news/loc...ecurity-guard-air-soft-gun-shooting/13521583/

Its not always a black/white issue...

---

I'd rather see the news talk about these guns and how they look too realistic and how they are considered "toys".

However, that isn't how the news works. If a black man is killed holding one then its due to racial issues. If its a white or latino THEN it seems to be more about how these guns look too realistic.

Only one of those cases where the victim was completely innocent the other two the people who got shot were actually doing something wrong even though they were situations that could have been avoided. Latinos are minorities so they under the same harsh realities as black people when it comes to being discriminated against.

 

[Valhelm]

I was asking for evidence pertaining to this thread, this incident. Not every other incident that ever occurred. You can't just label somebody something just by association.

Again, Ramuh, that kind of evidence isn't really necessary. Very few people with consciously racist views go around spouting them. I've only heard blatantly racist comments (as opposed to thinly veiled rants about "urban youths") a handful of times. But just because somebody doesn't say horrible things doesn't mean that they don't participate in racism.

Most racism isn't outward. It's often unconscious. American society is one that does not hold much respect for Black people. Because of this disrespect, and because of Black peoples' general lower income than white people, police in the US unfairly and disproportionately harass, arrest, and kill Black people for suspected crimes.

This kind of institutional and sometimes unintentional racism can be a lot more damaging than the 90-year-old white man who calls the president the n-word.

 

[Toxi]

I'd rather see the news talk about these guns and how they look too realistic and how they are considered "toys".

They shoot bb pellets. They are absolutely toys.

If you want to have a discussion about realistic toy guns, then please call them what they actually are.

 

[ramuh]

We have the 911 call. I posted it a while back.

The cop responded to how the callers were talking to 911. The marine and his wife claim the deceased was giving "dehumanizing stares" and "was waving the gun all over the place and pointing it at children".

Cops, only trained for certain instances and not certainly for a man who's claimed to have an assault weapon, shoot because a man with assault rifle "waving in the air" is deemed a thread based on false information. So now we have false information plus trigger happy cops.

Whether or not racial bias was in the cops is up in the air, but it was certainly there by the fucks who called 911.

Plus, apparently someone else died from a heart attack as a result of the shooting, so that's 2 lives snuffed out for doing nothing more than living their lives. It's hard to be an optimistic person when these stories add up very quickly.

And their stupid ass need to face SEVERE charges for this. Stupid Pieces of Shit.

 

[Valhelm]

They shoot bb pellets. They are absolutely toys.

If you want to have a discussion about realistic toy guns, then please actually call them what they are.

I personally wouldn't consider a BB gun a toy. Larger-caliber BB and pellet guns can be used to hunt birds. I don't think any item regularly sold for killing should be considered a toy.

 

[TAJ]

I personally wouldn't consider a BB gun a toy. Larger-caliber BB and pellet guns can be used to hunt birds. I don't think any item regularly sold for killing should be considered a toy.

It wasn't larger caliber.
But not that you mention it I was watching some videos of large caliber air guns with insane muzzle velocities to make them actual weapons (still absolutely awful range) earlier today and it's funny how insecure the people in the videos are about air rifles' rightful reputation as toys.
There was one that's (I think) the smallest you can kill a deer with and it was as big as a Barrett .50 rifle.

 

[Clockwork]

It wasn't larger caliber.
But not that you mention it I was watching some videos of large caliber air guns with insane muzzle velocities to make them actual weapons earlier today and it's funny how insecure the people in the videos are about air rifles' rightful reputation as toys.

Back in the day (when I didn't know better) I had a bb/pellet rifle. It was perfectly capable of taking out birds, rabbits, and squirrels.

It definitely wasn't a toy.

That is all moot though because:

Ohio is an open carry state. Anyone could walk into that store with a real firearm and it would be legal.

 

[Darren870]

I stand corrected but, Latinos are minorities so they under the same harsh realities as black people when it comes to being discriminated against.

Besides the thread topic, those were the first three that came up. I didn't put white in the search either. I'm sure I could have found more...

They shoot bb pellets. They are absolutely toys.

If you want to have a discussion about realistic toy guns, then please call them what they actually are.

Yea I forgot, all my neon colored super soakers killed people growing up:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/boy-fatally-shoots-brother-head-bb-gun-article-1.1295900

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/joe-owens/index.ssf/2010/06/bb_gun_death_has_people_wonder.html

http://www.cbs46.com/story/23299569/1-year-old-child-shot-with-bb-gun-dies

They might be toys...but it doesn't mean they should be classified as them.

 

[TAJ]

Back in the day (when I didn't know better) I had a bb/pellet rifle. It was perfectly capable of taking out birds, rabbits, and squirrels.

It definitely wasn't a toy.

And a baseball bat can kill a person. It's still a kids toy.

 

[Toxi]

I personally wouldn't consider a BB gun a toy. Larger-caliber BB and pellet guns can be used to hunt birds. I don't think any item regularly sold for killing should be considered a toy.

We have toys that allow you to mutilate and mind control animals.

Airsoft guns are not designed to be useful weapons. They are designed purely for recreation. For me, that makes them toys.

Yea I forgot, all my neon colored super soakers killed people growing up:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/boy-fatally-shoots-brother-head-bb-gun-article-1.1295900

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/joe-owens/index.ssf/2010/06/bb_gun_death_has_people_wonder.html

http://www.cbs46.com/story/23299569/1-year-old-child-shot-with-bb-gun-dies

They might be toys...but it doesn't mean they should be classified as them.

Would you consider a baseball bat a toy?

"Yeah, I forgot, all my neon colored nerf bats killed people growing up:"