Maybe is that they are honest with that word, not like the rest of companies in the last 3-5 years. True. But man... they are really behind schedule and everything looks so fresh that the 2015/2016 release sounds more like a beta right now...
Star Citizen Pre-Alpha: 'Arena Commander' Dogfighting
- Thread starter MrBig
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Maybe is that they are honest with that word, not like the rest of companies in the last 3-5 years. True. But man... they are really behind schedule and everything looks so fresh that the 2015/2016 release sounds more like a beta right now...
MasterOfPastures
Banned
They are also way, way more ambitious. And creating a lot more content than Elite, which has two space stations and a handful of ships (which you cannot walk out of).
Still, RSI's grasp is slowly matching it's reach.
Elite have in their road map boardings, planetary landings, walking in your ship, walking in stations, and more. But they are doing a correct development, step by step. Instead at CIG they are trying to do everything at the same time which is a terrible way of developing.
Is like if the people from Eve Online tried to develop all the current game for the first release, instead of having a progression like they had during the years...
That is what I meant with chaos/mislead.
Buggy Loop
Member
Way more ambitious ? I dont agree one bit. Unless you meant ambitious in the way that sculpting a 2 story high wood elephant is more ambitious when done with a spoon than with a knife. Their choice of tools is whats making all of this a mess when it shouldnt be with the budget they have.
MasterOfPastures
Banned
For what the game will be, parallel development covers more ground and get's more stuff done. It took them two years to get it going, though. I'm sure once 2018 comes around, they'll write books about the postmortem and what they learned.
What? That makes no sense. The elephant is still there, spoon or not. It's still the bigger content.
CIG is split into several dev teams around the world, each focusing on different aspects. As I understand it, Foundry 42 is focusing on the narrative campaign, Behavior the Planetside environments, Illfonic the FPS components, CIG Austin is working on the PU/AC, and CIG LA is working where it's needed, as well as being the head studio coordinating everything.
They have a roadmap that is pretty much exactly the same as elite, with specific dev milestones that are being released as they reach a quality that people won't complain to no end about putting up with, since the expectation by many of released content at any stage, as repeatedly demonstrated in this very thread, is perfection.
No, they arent doing development correct in terms of project like Star Citizen.
You really dont understand why its harder to make system to work in Star Citizen. Game from the ground up is about being multiplayer and focused on correct physics inside and outside of ship and ship systems interactions. Making stuff they are doing to work in multiplayer environment is hard as fuck, actually no one has ever done anything like this.
And no, they are not that far behind the schedule.
MasterOfPastures
Banned
Woa there, buddy. Easy.
I wish SC would spend more on sound design though. Elite's is flawless, and a true inspiration. More than anything, that's what I like best about it.
Buggy Loop
Member
Exactly, the elephant is the same, so whats more ambitious again?
Teknopathetic
Member
"Exactly, the elephant is the same, so whats more ambitious again?"
I hope you're not implying Elite is as ambitious as Star Citizen.
I hope you're not implying Elite is as ambitious as Star Citizen.
Vlodril
Member
I still do not understand why people feel the need to antagonise each other between elite and star citizen. both are great for us since we got almost nothing for a decade. Both should be a big hit so we can see even more games in this genre.
Both look very nice in my opinion at least and they will offer different things to people. Embrace both.
Both look very nice in my opinion at least and they will offer different things to people. Embrace both.
You don't need to reinvent the wheel to achieve the goals of this project. You just need good planing and develop step by step, and looks like that is exactly the way in which Frontier is doing it.
Like in any other software development/engineering, having these huge parts of work, split between teams around the globe, and with such amount of little details... It doesn't matter how good architects and coordinators you have, connecting everything together, and most importantly keeping people at the same page all the time is not possible. They will constantly go back and forth in the development to readjust for non expected circumstances. Which translates into bugs and delays.
I work in software development, I know exactly what I'm talking about, I have seen it, and seeing these presentations and the output of the modules is what it totally looks like.
You cant, where whole Your gameplay relies on the components they are producing, so multiship crews for players/AI, two synced physics, physical based ship systems and multiplayer than syncs everything i've just mentioned.
Its the core part of the Star Citizen, thats what Chris Roberts wanted from his space sim and thats what people funded and still funding.
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WebM from the stream:
Racing module
http://a.pomf.se/jqbbwp.webm
Multicrew combat
http://a.pomf.se/tgyree.webm
http://a.pomf.se/uafwfc.webm
http://a.pomf.se/exhqjz.webm
FPS module:
http://a.pomf.se/wuaglc.webm
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I see that there are higher quality vids, released damn ;\
Teknopathetic
Member
"I still do not understand why people feel the need to antagonise each other between elite and star citizen. both are great for us since we got almost nothing for a decade. Both should be a big hit so we can see even more games in this genre."
This is a great question. The genre's been actually dead since the early 2000s and people want to draw lines in the sand and be on the "winning" team. It doesn't really matter what the subject is, so long as there are two things that are even "sort of" in competition with each other, people will want to feel like the one they like most is better.
This is a great question. The genre's been actually dead since the early 2000s and people want to draw lines in the sand and be on the "winning" team. It doesn't really matter what the subject is, so long as there are two things that are even "sort of" in competition with each other, people will want to feel like the one they like most is better.
But that's really with anything there is at least two of.
I think the fact that they're both chugging at full speed is fantastic. Especially if both devs think they need to push to make their games better for the players in order to be above the competition. I hope both do great, and that people who don't like one, go and spend money on the other.
However, when you compare a game in development since 2009 to one since 2012, and then argue that the game with a ten fold smaller budget is larger in scope well...
The lapses in logic begin to compound, and you'll likely get people to tell you off.
Buggy Loop
Member
I sure am tek as i've yet to see something from SC that is not planned in ED. You could differentiate them with just how far they'll push freature X or Y, but in the end, each pulls the curtain in different aspects.
But im not trying to convince one or the other to anyone else, i have BOTH of them. To me it looks like SC will have a rough road ahead because of early (imo bad) decisions. Having talked to one of my friend from a big studio in Montréal, satellite development rarely ends up good (and money flows really fast with outside sourcing).
But whatever.
When i see things like
"And creating a lot more content than Elite, which has two space stations and a handful of ships (which you cannot walk out of"
You have to ask, what space station you are currently playing in in SC at the moment?
But im not trying to convince one or the other to anyone else, i have BOTH of them. To me it looks like SC will have a rough road ahead because of early (imo bad) decisions. Having talked to one of my friend from a big studio in Montréal, satellite development rarely ends up good (and money flows really fast with outside sourcing).
But whatever.
When i see things like
"And creating a lot more content than Elite, which has two space stations and a handful of ships (which you cannot walk out of"
You have to ask, what space station you are currently playing in in SC at the moment?
See, this is exactly what you SHOULD NOT ask. Elite is almost ready for release. Star Citizen is far from it. Why is this so hard to grasp for some people?
Buggy Loop
Member
So its ok to simply say that Elite will have 6 ships and 2 space station models at release then? Based on beta 1 ? Alright. Double standards.
Take cover they are going against you now
I'm pretty sure that what you mean (as me), is that IN YOUR OPINION the people in Frontier took a better development methodology, and this other way that CIG is following seems more risked to issues like delays and bugs.
But they will take it like you are offending them... Aren't the forums meant to exchange ideas and points of view? ....
And I also repeat, I have both games, I have even spent double the amount of money in SC than in ED. And I pretend to enjoy both.
Eh, why cant You understand that Star Citizen could not be developed in different way?
You dont understand that without all the systems they are working right now, and which Elite will [maybe] get somewhere in future [year or two], they couldnt even finish first mission in their campaign?
Their first mission in Squadron 42 is located near mining station where You will have multicrew combat, solo ship combat with wingman AI, FPS combat both in zero G and inside the station.
How are You imagining to do this mission with development style like Elite, without most of the subsystem required to pull this off?
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Only trailers are in high quality on their yt channel, rest is hidden behind awful twitch stream quality.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Question. I've been following Star Citizen from a great distance.
I visited their website for the first time in a long time and was kinda blown away by some of the prices. All the ships seem to be between $45-$400? Is that correct? Is USD the only way to get ships in the game upon release or is there some sort of in-game currency system that allows you to do runs, make money and buy your shit that way? Is this just sort of their way to raise further funds before launch?
I visited their website for the first time in a long time and was kinda blown away by some of the prices. All the ships seem to be between $45-$400? Is that correct? Is USD the only way to get ships in the game upon release or is there some sort of in-game currency system that allows you to do runs, make money and buy your shit that way? Is this just sort of their way to raise further funds before launch?
Sax Russel
Banned
When you heard of Elite for the first time it was much further along than Star Citizen, and is releasing soon as basically Space Engine + Euro Truck Sim + shoot some things, and more features will be added on later. Star Citizen is releasing *years* from now, but is attempting to have a lot of features at release because they are simply part of how the game is going to work/integral to the story mode. As part of the development process, we get these things piecemeal, whether as playable modules or in preview videos, and honestly, what they showed today looked great.
You can prefer Elite's release model instead, and sure that's great, but Star Citizen isn't developing the *wrong way* for what they're aiming for, just because you don't like it.
You can prefer Elite's release model instead, and sure that's great, but Star Citizen isn't developing the *wrong way* for what they're aiming for, just because you don't like it.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
It's a way to add funds as you guessed and will no longer be available when the game launches. From there on out you have to buy things with the in game currency.
Yeah too, with even more so with how strong the Hornet is ( and if the matchmaking/rules still don't try to balance team based on ships/point per ship ) I not only want to use my avenger but also my 325a...
It's how they're doing crowdfunding, it will not be part of the games monetization. Pre-ordering the game is $30. Pre-odering the game and beta participation is $45. Pre-alpha test modules cost $5 each at this point. This is detailed in the OP.
What development path EXACTLY should CIG have taken in your opinion? Please elaborate. How should they've approached it differently? I honestly don't see how anyone could compare SC's and Elite's development RIGHT NOW. Elite's is obviously YEARS ahead of SC's. It always has been.
Yeah, in regards to what MrBig said, there's not a lot of info on how hard any of this stuff will be to buy in game, but all of it will be able to be purchased with in game money and/or captured.
All of the "Ship Packages" include beta access, and the least expensive one just by default gives you the Aurora ship.
Because You dont understand the concept behind this game and its systems.
Its not a matter of opinion, they cant do it other way around, its just not possible from technical point of view.
When you post something on an internet forum, people understand that it's your opinion. What they are asking for is an elaboration of your opinion, since it's critiquing something very specific. That implies knowledge of where it's going wrong. With that implied knowledge, you should be able to communicate what they should be doing instead.
I think you know, and that we know, that the limited knowledge of how things are being developed means that you can't really concretely explain this position.
So what Zabojnik is doing, is calling you out on your very obvious bluff as wild swinging with no real purpose or meaning.
I think you know, and that we know, that the limited knowledge of how things are being developed means that you can't really concretely explain this position.
So what Zabojnik is doing, is calling you out on your very obvious bluff as wild swinging with no real purpose or meaning.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Thanks for the insight guys!
Is there a target year for launch? Are they trying to get this one out in 2015 or is it still TBD?
Is there a target year for launch? Are they trying to get this one out in 2015 or is it still TBD?
You'll probably be able to play it in substantial form (if all you care about is dogfighting you can do that now) by the end of 2015. The campaign and most of the game is slotted to be done by the end of 2016, though major development will likely go on for a few more years.
Dreams-Visions
Member
sweet, ty.
There's merit in what you're saying, of course. But they obviously felt it was the right / only way to go about it, given the budget, the scope of the game and whatever other constraints they might be working within. Chris Roberts, like David Braben, has quite a few successful space sims and other games under his belt, so he too likely knows what he's doing. What some people in this thread are defending is that you simply cannot say at this moment if it was the right or wrong way to go about it, because it's way, way too early to tell. CIG seem confident about it all, and development seems to be progressing steadily (if at a slower pace than what some - probably CIG included - expected) by pretty much all accounts, today's showing included.
Would you have said the same thing if two or three years ago Frontier, after having laid out their similarly ambitious plans for their game, came out with a very basic pre-alpha with maybe 5% of the game's systems/functionality? No, because you wouldn't be able to tell. Like it or not, that's where SC is now. And that's even without taking into account the fact that Elite is largely procedural, which changes a lot where development is concerned. Almost everything.
Here we are discussing Star Citizen. Not Squadron 42 which is the one that requires all those components. Instead Star Citizen can be developed in the way that Frontier has followed and work on the single campaign later.
Of course we don't know how is being developed in the daily rutine. I said that it is JUST MY IMPRESSION that it is being worked like that having as output the presentations, current modules, their updates in the page and with my experience with similar situations in software development.
But here people seems to take everything like a flame war, like I'm trying to convince other people or that I'm implying that everything that I say I meant like a fact...
So I will finish here my sharing.
I didn't get that impression, to be honest. You're taking it too personally. It's a very sensible subject and people have strong opinions about it, but we've always tried to keep the discussion on the civil side in this thread.
Sax Russel
Banned
Well, you opened with how it was embarrassing, sad, and the people involved don't have the skill or leadership to pull it off, soooo...
I'm not trying to chase you off, but certainly a more interesting way to phrase that sort of thing is to ask questions to foster discussion, yes?
Instead of (paraphrasing, do not take offense): They are doing it wrong!
Try instead: Does anyone think that the way in which they are going about developing the game hinders progress by creating additional barriers?
Then posit a theory such as you did in your last post (good stuff), but without sounding definitive. Because honestly, we don't know, and you don't know.
I'd say this kind of light stepping is seemingly required in threads regarding games that people are not only emotionally invested in, but quite literally, have "invested/donated" money to the project. That seems to spark a much more intense reaction to unsubstantiated criticism.
Go at it like Socrates.
According to their initial roadmap by this time they should already have the planetside module and be launching the alpha of Squadron 42. So that is in what I'm basing my opinion. Obviously if they have already 6-8 months of delay it will just accumulate to the ones to come until the final release, initially meant for Q1/Q2 of 2015, which is why I said that currently 2015/2016 looks more like a beta with most of the modules/systems in.
Doesn't make sense?
It does make sense and you're right, in a way. But, again, the original sin is comparing SC's development to Elite's. They are two completely different stories. Frontier and Braben have been working on Elite for much longer, longer still on procedural generation, which sits at the core of Elite's philosophy (and is basically Braben's life work). Frontier's crowdfunding campaign was meant to help them finish Elite, not actually kickstart the project. Yes, they've expanded the scope somewhat, but the core elements and functionality - the design of the game, if you will - were already set in stone. In 2012 Chris Roberts had a good looking, but comically basic prototype and a head full of ideas & hopes. Nobody expected that people would go batshit insane for Star Citizen. And so the initial plans had to be revised. And revised again, when money just wouldn't stop pouring in. It's only in the last six months or so (a year would be probably pushing it) that the design documents of the various parts of the game have started to resemble what will soon be their final version. For the past two years we've been witnessing not only the birth of what is one of the most ambitious games ever attempted, but also the birth of a completely new studio. Messiness is part of the process. If you ask me, things haven't been messy enough, which is a testament to Chris Roberts's good work so far.
I don't know about you guys but I backed both this and Elite and I'm excited just to see the return of honest to god space sims. Enemy Starfighter is another one to watch (RELEASE A DK2-COMPATIBLE PROTOTYPE PLS).
I love how CIG is so adamant about showing real-time demos at these presentations, even if it kills em. While they may not implement all of the ridiculous stuff they've mentioned over the last year or two, it won't be from a lack of ambition or determination. They're basically Origin 2.0, for better or worse.
I love how CIG is so adamant about showing real-time demos at these presentations, even if it kills em. While they may not implement all of the ridiculous stuff they've mentioned over the last year or two, it won't be from a lack of ambition or determination. They're basically Origin 2.0, for better or worse.
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