Holy shit, no joke. I had no idea. That was out of control.
Imru al-Qays;127016663 said:
It's not like the developers didn't pick the setting.
New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
- Thread starter Fracas
- Start date
Holy shit, no joke. I had no idea. That was out of control.
It's not like the developers didn't pick the setting.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Yeah, I thought her repeated use of that origin as an example of how not to handle sexual violence in games was weird. What exactly would she have the game do differently?
So games should only be set in the West? Or games not set in the West shouldn't have prostitutes in them? I'm not really following your argument.
Let me clarify that I absolutely agree with criticisms of Far Cry as a series for exoticizing the third world.
Too much.... thats all I am going to say here. But really doing more SJW after what happened last week... wow. Just wow.
AlimNassor
Banned
Imru al-Qays;127017269 said:
Because it's not good? Rape as a background is the worst fucking shit ever. Why does every female have to have been raped? Why?
That person didn't say anything close to that.
stufte
Member
Every female was raped?
What happened last week? Should I... not ask?
Jurassic Munson
Banned
Honest question to the people on either side. Do you think I am doing something wrong by completely not caring about any physical descriptor of a character? I know I should think about it, but it never crosses my mind.
It means nothing to me. I'll play an orange dot if the gameplay is good. In story driven games like the Wolf Among Us I simply never pay attention to race/gender. I'd be more apt to tell you that I played as a stern vigilante than a white guy.
I see these topics all of the time and I feel like I am part of a problem, but I just never think about the design of the pixels. I think about the gameplay and character. I don't care about Mario as much as I do Mario gameplay. Slap that on any window dressing and I am game.
It means nothing to me. I'll play an orange dot if the gameplay is good. In story driven games like the Wolf Among Us I simply never pay attention to race/gender. I'd be more apt to tell you that I played as a stern vigilante than a white guy.
I see these topics all of the time and I feel like I am part of a problem, but I just never think about the design of the pixels. I think about the gameplay and character. I don't care about Mario as much as I do Mario gameplay. Slap that on any window dressing and I am game.
Based on the sales of SpecOps I would be surprised.
It seems you're trying to blur the line between commentary and proper commentary.
I mean, how many games you can think of that ''expose some kind of gritty reality of womens lives, or sexual trauma''?
This explains it better than I have been. There is nothing wrong with having sex workers and prostitutes in a game, my problem is storylines involving prostitutes are very often done lazily and with barely a fraction of the care and attention that other storylines receive, making such characters as one dimensional objects in the game.
……forgetit
Member
I totally agree with how things are currently depicted, but at the same time I can't really think of a solution. I mean there's obvious shit like RDR not having prostitutes randomly murdered every time you walk in to town but I can't really think of a way to show "this place is fucked up," besides fucked up shit happening. Can anyone think of a way to convey that?
It doesn't happen to every female in Dragon Age: Origins, and is being used as a means to show the power disparity between the city elves and the human nobility. It also doesn't even come to rape for the City Elf origin if they're female.
I would argue that it's a good use of the trope because it doesn't glorify the act, and it also handles the trauma aspect afterwards pretty tastefully. It's a horrible thing and it's portrayed as a horrible thing.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=880130
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/08/22/the-truth-about-video-game-journalism/
http://ellaguro.blogspot.com/2014/08/on-right-wing-videogame-extremism.html
In short: some ex boyfriend of Zoe Quinn's posted some bitter screed essentially accusing her of sleeping with game pundits/writers/journalists/whateveryouwantocallthem to influence them to promote her stuff. Shitlords lost their minds about it and then started up another campaign of gross abuse. Eventually, someone targeted Phil Fish for his attitude about the harassment, ended up doxxing a bunch of personal and financial information about him.
As Olly Moss put it, "Video game devs woke up this morning a tiny bit more afraid of the people they're trying to make things for.".
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Who else in DAO gets raped?
Because this is the point Bioware wanted to get across about the situation of elves in Ferelden: they are second-class citizens with no rights, no legal protections, and no way to defend themselves against humans. Could they have picked some other way to get that point across? Sure. But the simple fact of using rape to get that point across isn't in itself objectionable. Sexual assault is a realistic, historically-attested thing that happens to lower caste women, and Dragon Age also avoids the trope of having the women sit around helplessly waiting to be rescued.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Very briefly since it's prob smart we don't discuss it, involved a indie dev named Zoe Quinn and some accusations of sleeping with press for good coverage. In the end it all ended in a lot of hacking and a lot of nasty comments. Give her name a google with neogaf and see if the thread pops up, you can prob get a decent summary from that.
If everybody thought like you there would be no problem, but they don't so we have problems. In short, good on you
No that is exactly what I'm saying. Sex workers are being put into the game just so they can have sex workers in the game. Games and game developers are not making any sort of statement on sexual violence like they do on any other sort of violence.
Given that they are already dealing with racism and segregation, they had more than enough to build a strong narrative. Like, I dunno. Frame it around a member of the elven community (perhaps a relative of the Warden-to-be!) being lynched due to waving, and our future warden gets in trouble due to attempting to enact vengeance against the culprits when the legal system fails to bring them to justice. That'd be a pretty cool origin that naturally plays into social elements already present in the game's setting without having to cheaply fall back on sexual violence to try and establish the bad guys when we already know that they are bad because they are racist shitfucks.Imru’ al-Qays;127017269 said:
Not to drag up a great can of worms, but stuff like this is part of the reason why Penny-Arcade's Sixth Slave is problematic. The comic at its core already deals with an incredibly brutal act being portrayed on somebody (slavery). That rape is added in for shock value cheapened the comic and gave a perfectly legitimate opening for the comic to be rightfully criticized.
lemon_fresh
Banned
trailmix16
Member
Imru al-Qays;127017269 said:
yeah stuff like this is really holding her back. The Bioshock examples and domestic abuse stuff I get, but she has a tendency to cherry-pick from scenes and storylines that don't fit her argument.
AlimNassor
Banned
No, but, rape is a terrible back story. It's so overdone and never done right.
No, no he didn't I apologize.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
After the first 'Women in Background' video, I was expecting another diatribe of failing to understand the concept of background NPCs.
She's quite right in most of what she says here, however. The commentary on the use of edgy sexual themes and imagery to portray one-dimensional characters and plots is very true. There's whole helluva lot of AAA games today that leap for the lowest hanging fruit at every opportunity(though I do takes issue with her criticism of the Bioshcok scene where
That's an example of where the imagery is used well. It develops the character of Ryan and the game doesn't lack for fleshed out characters regardless, male or female).
One thing that I do question is the motives behind such portrayals of sexual imagery and violence. Anita seems to claim misogyny. I would go with naivety, ignorance, and flat-out lack of talent on the part of the writers and directors of these games. Similar in vein to how Michael Bay makes the sexiness of his female leads their defining characteristic. I don't think Bay is a misogynist seeking to oppress women. I just think he's an idiot.
It's certainly a step-up from previous videos, though with Anita's recent attitude towards TFYC, her generalizing comments about vast swathes of communities, and her tweets about how essential "male allies" are, I find it hard to support her good points when she sees fit to sully them with such an abrasive internet persona.
She's quite right in most of what she says here, however. The commentary on the use of edgy sexual themes and imagery to portray one-dimensional characters and plots is very true. There's whole helluva lot of AAA games today that leap for the lowest hanging fruit at every opportunity(though I do takes issue with her criticism of the Bioshcok scene where
you discover the fate of your mother.
One thing that I do question is the motives behind such portrayals of sexual imagery and violence. Anita seems to claim misogyny. I would go with naivety, ignorance, and flat-out lack of talent on the part of the writers and directors of these games. Similar in vein to how Michael Bay makes the sexiness of his female leads their defining characteristic. I don't think Bay is a misogynist seeking to oppress women. I just think he's an idiot.
It's certainly a step-up from previous videos, though with Anita's recent attitude towards TFYC, her generalizing comments about vast swathes of communities, and her tweets about how essential "male allies" are, I find it hard to support her good points when she sees fit to sully them with such an abrasive internet persona.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
So for you it's OK to use the imagery of lynching ethnic minorities (which was often meted out to black men precisely as punishment for having romantic relations with white women) to drive home the point that This Place Sucks, but not OK to use the threat of rape of that ethnic minority's women? Why? This is a pretty serious double standard.
trailmix16
Member
you dont give a second thought to the murder of an
attractive female
What kind of statement on sexual violence would you want in a game like GTA where you can randomly kill anyone that annoys you?
TheActtionFigure
Member
Recent events suggest that she's friends with a lot of developers that share her point of view. It's in no way inconceivable to think that she would brainstorm with them about how to make the medium better through coming up with a product that illustrates how she feels things need to be done. If every restaurant I ate at was shit I'd probably learn to cook my own food. Critiquing is easy and rarely ever changes the things that are being criticized. Creating something that inspires change is a whole different ballgame.
Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Wish more people remembered it before reaching for a malicious reason for anything.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
I don't that's a fair solution. Simple solution, which really is already done: research before making. And again, cause they already do that, it then comes down to finding the balance between fun and context.
I enjoyed this more than part one.
The stuff about sexual violence being used as a lazy, one-note attempt to establish characters as evil definitely rung true. Furthermore, I thought she was spot on in noting that these games portray rape and sexual violence as abnormal, and the act of cartoonish villains, rather than a wide spread pandemic portrayed by friends, neighbors and family members. The latter is true in the real world. In video games, people who beat up women are weird, evil mustache twirlers who also kick dogs and children.
That is indisputable and perhaps the most noteworthy observation she's made thus far.
The stuff about sexual violence being used as a lazy, one-note attempt to establish characters as evil definitely rung true. Furthermore, I thought she was spot on in noting that these games portray rape and sexual violence as abnormal, and the act of cartoonish villains, rather than a wide spread pandemic portrayed by friends, neighbors and family members. The latter is true in the real world. In video games, people who beat up women are weird, evil mustache twirlers who also kick dogs and children.
That is indisputable and perhaps the most noteworthy observation she's made thus far.
I completely forgot about that God Of War 3 scene and thought this must have been Ascension because I haven't played that one yet. That Kratos is supposed to be a scumbag is known, but that entire scene was unnecessarily gruesome.
The fact that putting a human being in there to keep the door open doesn't even make sense, dammit. And even if someone argues that all of this is in line with Kratos character: is a trophy really necessary?
Real eyeopening video series; just interesting to watch this since it's difficult as a man who grew up with videogames to understand the bigger issue.
The fact that putting a human being in there to keep the door open doesn't even make sense, dammit. And even if someone argues that all of this is in line with Kratos character: is a trophy really necessary?
Real eyeopening video series; just interesting to watch this since it's difficult as a man who grew up with videogames to understand the bigger issue.
Yeah... It made me feel very uncomfortable and I actually gasped when I saw it, I haven't seen it before this video and I just can't accept the fact that it's real. Somehow it disturbed me more than all the other scenes I saw.
The "I don't see races/religions/genders/sexuality" excuse is getting old. Yes, you don't. Those who are opressed due to their race/gender/equality do. Every day. That is the point.
I'm not exactly sure either.
It's not very different from the Dead Space 2 opening scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH7ps39xKJI
I suppose that's the general problem I have with the "Women as background decoration" accusation since almost all npcs are background decoration.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
For a case for the trophy, less about Kratos and more about players going back to see the result.
But yeah that GoW3 is fucking nasty and I think the only example in the video of pure random, totally sexual violence for the sake of it. Probably the best example she's ever brought up.
I'm not suggesting a double standard at all.Imru al-Qays;127019843 said:
Bioware is already inherently evoking racial violence through the way that elves are forcefully segregated into a destitute ghetto. Trying to root the City Elf Warden's background in both racial and sexual violence is unnecessary and cheapens both because it suggests that the idea of racism isn't enough to carry the Warden's background and because rape can just be casually thrown in for shock value.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
I agree with this. But then look at the Dragon Age example that she keeps misusing: the rapist in the city elf origin is obviously a moustache-twirler, but the game also makes it clear that this is not an isolated incident, and that city elf women are as a class vulnerable to sexual violence from human men due to their position in the caste hierarchy of Ferelden.
Racial violence is sexual violence. Oppressed minority groups are oppressed sexually as well as in other ways. I think this is something Bioware explicitly understands.
Mowki Kowski
Member
And it's not that they choose to. They are forced by an unassuming majority to recognize their differences.
Well I don't know about GTA since the game is all about satirising every Americanism in existence (for good and bad) but for a start, how about giving one of the prostitutes some sort of characterisation? Perhaps a storyline involving a human trafficking ring that involves going after the pimps and organisations that exploit sex workers? It's not exactly hard. They can then make a satire of the stupid pretenses that some men have about the pimp lifestyle. It's not hard.
Not here.. I can PM all the links but lets just say its crazy.
ForsakenLotus
Member
No your not. Anita is the one doing something wrong. See, one could make the argument that the objectification of women in gaming has been skewed towards pleasing the male demographic, that there is a surprising lack of female representation in games (especially as lead characters), and other statements along those lines. What really, really bothers me is that any female character that doesn't fit Anita's ideal of what a female character should be is in some way an objectification of women.
Not only that, but soooo many of her examples are intellectually dishonest or just really poor. Is there a woman using her sexuality to gain an advantage? Objectification. Is there a woman who needs to be rescued? Objectification. Is there a woman who is an ancillary character? Objectification. There is no restraint, no responsibility, and NO CONTEXT for most of these examples.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
KiefbladeMaster
Member
Well, the God of War thing is way over the top imo. They even had that in the first game, albeit in the form of a rocking vase rather than the over-jubilant onlookers present in III. That being said, I don't view it as badly in, say, GTA or Red Dead specifically because those were/are elements to the society being mirrored and are never blatantly advertised as is being suggested.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Good video, as always. Might be the best one yet, honestly. So many cringeworthy scenes, and completely useless and unnecessary.
I really, really, really liked the point about the perpetrators of sexual violence being "normal" (with air quotes) men and not "cartoon villains in a dark alley". This is one of the most insidious myths and scenes like that only perpetrate them even more so.
I really, really, really liked the point about the perpetrators of sexual violence being "normal" (with air quotes) men and not "cartoon villains in a dark alley". This is one of the most insidious myths and scenes like that only perpetrate them even more so.
Did you just seriously say that The Witcher is a historical piece? LMAO.
I had never played the game beyond the demo (which I hated), so I had never seen this scene before, but it was.... how to say? I don't think I ever cringed so hard at watching a game scene. And when I saw the trophy pop up I just stood there mouth agape. I seriously have nothing but contempt for the devs/"writers" who put this in the game.
Apparently, you didn't read the OP.
She never even calls the authors of these games malicious. The argument isn't "this is what these people are trying to say" it's "this is what these people are saying".
"Well they didn't mean to make a misogynistic thing" doesn't really excuse the fact of the thing.
In any case, if these games are all examples of clueless buffoonery (they aren't), then they're perfect subjects for these videos. Hopefully, the videos elucidate to clueless buffoons that the things they're creating aren't harmless, even if they're made without mal intent. You only get to say "oh I didn't realize, my bad!" once.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
A lot of it is. Some of it is extremely misleading because she removes it from its proper context.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
No I think what he mean't was that the witcher even as a book series is based of medievil Europe in terms of style, setting etc.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Do tell what the "proper context" of the scenes is, then. Particularly the God of War one, if you can.Imru al-Qays;127022072 said:
I've played and/or seen enough from many of these games (AssCreed, The Witcher, Watch Dogs, RDR) to know that there wasn't any particular context missing, anyway.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
We've been talking about the Dragon Age example for about two pages at this point. You're free to join the discussion.