New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)

18ish minutes in she busts out sexual abuse stats and then goes on to say Prostitutes are seen as non-human?!!?! Really?!?

I cannot believe she used the 1in5 stat....

Also, I didn't really see some of those Bioshock death poses as "sexualized"

More cherry picking and "no kidding" from her. I'll watch the rest of the video, but it's a pale comparison to her last, which ALMOST made some valid points, until people showed she set up half of those scenarios and that most regular players would not encounter them or avoid them...

Back to watching.
 
What are the reasons for the rules in the OP? Some of those seem like perfectly valid points worthy of discussion. Is it because they've been discussed to death?

"She wears earings" is relevant?

Any of the "moneyyy thooo" posts will end up coming from people who either didn't give her money and/or don't have any idea what it takes to make one of these videos. There's nothing valuable in any of those subjects.
 
This video reminds me that ALWAYS bothered me how praticaly EVERY SINGLE MALE in borders and prostitution houses are fully clothed, don't matter WHERE you enter.

Getting ready to have sex with a prostitute ? Fully Naked.

That GTA 5 dude is probably the first one I ever saw =P
 
Did you not watch the whole thing? Because she talked about that near the end.

I've always found that argument comical.

1. It enters the realm of revisionist history. Yeah, guess what, female prostitutes do exist. As do female lawyers. You'll find both in a game like GTA V. It's silly not to expect a game that uses the real world as reference to refuse to portray certain 'negative' depictions of women. If that's all the portray, that's a misrepresentation, but often that isn't the case.

2. Either you want games to be honest, fair and representative, or you don't. Sexualization happens. Sexual violence happens. If these things are ignored, what value does a game have in informing a woman's view of her 'position' in society? It has none. At which point much of Tropes vs. Women argument falls apart.
 
Many of them fall under the various forms of argumentum ad hominem. They're distracting, irrelevant, and often involve people being really nasty and mean-spirited.

Makes sense.

"She wears earings" is relevant?

Any of the "moneyyy thooo" posts will end up coming from people who either didn't give her money and/or don't have any idea what it takes to make one of these videos. There's nothing valuable in any of those subjects.

I was thinking about the money aspect, actually. Is she attempting to make money to continue making videos or is it to make videos and also turn a profit?
 
Do people really agree with her? Almost everything that comes out of her mouth is just plane wrong. Like a broken clock she is right only two times a day. For real people just wait until counter arguments for her video come out so you can hear more then just her side,
 
This video reminds me that ALWAYS bothered me how praticaly EVERY SINGLE MALE in borders and prostitution houses are fully clothed, don't matter WHERE you enter.

Getting ready to have sex with a prostitute ? Fully Naked.

That GTA 5 dude is probably the first one I ever saw =P

It would double development costs to model and animate naked men.
 
Would it be better if they were regular women? Or just men? That mission started from a brothel which is very much part of the plot and story.

It would be better if they didn't use the killing or abuse of no named female characters to try and make their characters look dark. They don't use random male characters for this because they know even the gullible won't be fooled by it then.
 
Makes sense.



I was thinking about the money aspect, actually. Is she attempting to make money to continue making videos or is it to make videos and also turn a profit?
She makes no money or ad money from the videos. They're suppose to be free educational tools, I guess...
 
Rewatch that scene.

It is a place where people has sex with prostitutes. there are NO SIGN OF A MEN WITH HIS PANTS DOWN or ANYTHING close to that.

I'm speaking merely of poses, and as an aside, men will not get undress until ready to do so, the women are undressed as part of their "job"
 
I liked the video, but she actually missed something regarding Papo & Yo. There's a girl in there, and she's used as a "save the princess" character a few times.


Regarding everything else, I really like that she pointed out that we aim for "historical accuracy" regarding rape and violence against women, but we ignore the rest of the game's mechanics because they're not part of the story.
 
I liked the video, but she actually missed something regarding Papo & Yo. There's a girl in there, and she's used as a "save the princess" character a few times.

But in this title, everyone feels like the victim. It's not just the lady. It's...

pretty much everyone involved.

And that's why it's a lot more powerful, because it's more universal in that sense.
 
It would be better if they didn't use the killing or abuse of no named female characters to try and make their characters look dark. They don't use random male characters for this because they know even the gullible won't be fooled by it then.

What does this even mean?

hateradio said:
I liked the video, but she actually missed something regarding Papo & Yo. There's a girl in there, and she's used as a "save the princess" character a few times.


Regarding everything else, I really like that she pointed out that we aim for "historical accuracy" regarding rape and violence against women, but we ignore the rest of the game's mechanics because they're not part of the story.

My response from earlier in the thread:


"And for her historical accuracy point at the end, the idea of dragons or super powers are exciting because they are extraordinary in an ordinary world. It makes those things things more special/more exciting. Her argument is that because john marston can hold 30 guns in an invisible back-pack, it should not be unreasonable for him to then also fly. Why yes in a virtual video game world no it shouldn't, but there is a certain balance between striking fun and believeablity in game worlds, and having everything break the rules of reality means that nothing is exciting, as breaking the rules is the norm."
 
I liked the video, but she actually missed something regarding Papo & Yo. There's a girl in there, and she's used as a "save the princess" character a few times.


Regarding everything else, I really like that she pointed out that we aim for "historical accuracy" regarding rape and violence against women, but we ignore the rest of the game's mechanics because they're not part of the story.

The realism of the game mechanics are ignored because it's a game. Historical context is kept because changing it doesn't inherently make a difference to the gameplay. The same games that aim for "historical accuracy" regarding "rape and violence against women" also aim for "historical accuracy" in other aspects like clothing, technology and setting. You can't show me a game wherein it's sole historically accurate aspect is the depiction of "rape and violence against women".

What does this even mean?

Thanks. I was just about to ask.
 
It is a place where people has sex with prostitutes. there are NO SIGN OF A MEN WITH HIS PANTS DOWN or ANYTHING close to that.
But it makes complete sense. Prostitutes need to advertise their body or, if already paid for, pleasure the client. Why would men be naked in a brothel with female prostitutes? The women are the ones on sale and being paid to be seen naked.
 
I've always found that argument comical.

1. It enters the realm of revisionist history. Yeah, guess what, female prostitutes do exist. As do female lawyers. You'll find both in a game like GTA V. It's silly not to expect a game that uses the real world as reference to refuse to portray certain 'negative' depictions of women. If that's all the portray, that's a misrepresentation, but often that isn't the case.
I don't necessarily have a problem with female sex workers in games, I didn't agree with her on that point in the previous video.
2. Either you want games to be honest, fair and representative, or you don't. Sexualization happens. Sexual violence happens. If these things are ignored, what value does a game have in informing a woman's view of her 'position' in society? It has none. At which point much of Tropes vs. Women argument falls apart.

The problem is the games aren't being fair and representative with it and that isn't the point of showing sexual violence. A fair and representative look it wouldn't just be covering attacks of random female prostitutes or other women. Sexual assault isn't something that just involves women and most of the time it isn't just a random attack on the streets. The games would also show and do more that nothing after the attack if they were being fair and representative but that isn't the point of the use of sexual violence. It's purely emotional manipulation, don't act like they're trying to educate people about sexual violence because they're doing a rubbish job if they are.
 
I don't necessarily have a problem with female sex workers in games, I didn't agree with her on that point in the previous video.


The problem is the games aren't being fair and representative with it and that isn't the point of showing sexual violence. A fair and representative look it wouldn't just be covering attacks of random female prostitutes or other women. Sexual assault isn't something that just involves women and most of the time it isn't just a random attack on the streets. The games would also show and do more that nothing after the attack if they were being fair and representative but that isn't the point of the use of sexual violence. It's purely emotional manipulation, don't act like they're trying to educate people about sexual violence because they're doing a rubbish job if they are.

It isn't about education. But I'll agree that often it's a surface level representation of sexual violence and prostitution. But that isn't exclusive to sexual violence. Murder often also has a very surface level depiction. Most media has a surface level depiction of anything that isn't the focus of the story.
 
But it makes complete sense. Prostitutes need to advertise their body or, if already paid for, pleasure the client. Why would men be naked in a brothel with female prostitutes? The women are the ones on sale and being paid to be seen naked.

Because...they're having sex with them? It's not like the only time we see brothels are on the show floor. Games often put us in their rooms and behind closed doors.
 
But it makes complete sense. Prostitutes need to advertise their body or, if already paid for, pleasure the client. Why would men be naked in a brothel with female prostitutes? The women are the ones on sale and being paid to be seen naked.

Sex workers are not "on sale".
 
Because...they're having sex with them? It's not like the only time we see brothels are on the show floor. Games often put us in their rooms and behind closed doors.

Isn't Bioshock some amount of time after a society collapse? Why would a man still be having sex with the prostitute?
 
Because...they're having sex with them? It's not like the only time we see brothels are on the show floor. Games often put us in their rooms and behind closed doors.

Yes but in perhaps the context of the story, this was when
Ryan went to murder your genetic mother
, perhaps he organized after hours? People would have heard the screaming.

Sex workers are not "on sale".

I think you knew what he meant.

Isn't Bioshock some amount of time after a society collapse. Why would a man still be having sex with the prostitute?

They mean like a dead dude's body naked.
 
Perhaps, the purpose of her project and several other others, has just been to point out examples of tropes in media. It isn't to look at the whole work and never has been. It's about pointing out tropes.
And that's stupid and academically irresponsible as well! Tropes have no cultural meaning outside of their context. Tropes are a terrible way to make moral judgement on media because tropes are neutral. What's important is HOW those tropes are used and the context of the narrative and game they fit. I can go on for a bit concerning a post-modern Jungian interpretation of database theory, but not even there do archetypes and "tropes" exist without context. Without the context, a trope is meaningless, a tool that must be used for a purpose before anything. Not making that distinction with kids is seriously damaging to their cultural and media literacy.

That's like comparing Call of Duty to Pablo Picasso’s Guernica. Which one actually sparks discussion on civilian deaths?
To your average joe blow? Neither. To an academic fifty years ago? Guernica. To an academic today? Call of Duty.

Remember, the media is the message. Even if Infinity Ward didn't intend any deep messages of the ravages of war, the very act of the media is itself a statement of the game's content of war and context of the modern age, and becomes open to interpretation within the context of its media, and to say the least, CoD DOES make statements on the civilian toll of warfare. Are we forgetting "No Russian" so soon? Even hamhanded, it was a statement of the value of civilian life to the warmongering and evil.
 
Isn't Bioshock some amount of time after a society collapse? Why would a man still be having sex with the prostitute?

And a lot of the grisly stuff we see is stuff from far before we ever get there. It's not like we're just seeing recently dead splicers all the time. A lot of people died in the uprising, and those are often what we see.

And it's not like this type of scenario is relegated to the Bioshock franchise.
 
This is the worst one yet I feel.

A lot of these arguement points are the same ones used by people who believe "violent games cause aggression/violence".

It's nice that we live in a world now that has a huge selection of game experiences ranging from a wide variety of topics/themes and it is nice people are encouraging the active development of new experiences. But pointing at titles you don't really enjoy or think is distasteful is no better than your elder telling you to, "turn off that filthy music!".

Entertainment is tailored by society, not the other way around (my opinion).
 
Yes but in perhaps the context of the story, this was when
Ryan went to murder your genetic mother
, perhaps he organized after hours? People would have heard the screaming.



I think you knew what he meant.



They mean like a dead dude's body naked.

I think we're talking about different things. Not really the Ryan scene as much as the background stuff (like the dead body with the spear in its' mouth).
 
And that's stupid and academically irresponsible as well! Tropes have no cultural meaning outside of their context. Tropes are a terrible way to make moral judgement on media because tropes are neutral. What's important is HOW those tropes are used and the context of the narrative and game they fit. I can go on for a bit concerning a post-modern Jungian interpretation of database theory, but not even there do archetypes and "tropes" exist without context. Without the context, a trope is meaningless, a tool that must be used for a purpose before anything. Not making that distinction with kids is seriously damaging to their cultural and media literacy.

Exactly. The nature of tropes is that at a certain level everything is a trope. The more I watch of this series the less I understand what exactly her point is supposed to be.
 
It would be better if they didn't use the killing or abuse of no named female characters to try and make their characters look dark. They don't use random male characters for this because they know even the gullible won't be fooled by it then.

Random males have been used. They have been used in God of War, in Far Cry 3, in GTA, etc.
 
It would be better if they didn't use the killing or abuse of no named female characters to try and make their characters look dark. They don't use random male characters for this because they know even the gullible won't be fooled by it then.
Random guys die all the time. I'd say much more frequently than females. Because people don't bat an eye if a male is murdered, but female deaths are more paid attention to.

A lot of this to me is like the number 23. You just start seeing it everywhere even if there really is no significance to it, but our brains are obsessed by patterns so its all you will see once you focus on it. Eventually it looks like a pandemic cause you see the #23 a lot! But the other numbers are just as common if not more... Not saying it is not an issue, but it can be hyped up to bigger proportions than it actually is.
 
Please. Elaborate.

Well I have some videos with people that can speak a lot better than me.

http://youtu.be/WGxz2mC0DPI?t=22s - I would watch this one first.
Looks like I won't get away with stealing his broken clock metaphor

http://youtu.be/l9Ju-1I1DTU - http://youtu.be/WuRSaLZidWI The videos have dumb names but he has really good points.

I think the first video is where I stand. There is no thesis to her videos. She is not helping feminism she is hurting it. And for the record I would like to see more well written females in video game and I hate bullshit fan-service anime.
 
A lot of these arguement points are the same ones used by people who believe "violent games cause aggression/violence".

It's nice that we live in a world now that has a huge selection of game experiences ranging from a wide variety of topics/themes and it is nice people are encouraging the active development of new experiences. But pointing at titles you don't really enjoy or think is distasteful is no better than your elder telling you to, "turn off that filthy music!".

Entertainment is tailored by society, not the other way around (my opinion).

This is pretty similar to how I feel.

I've watched all her videos as they came out, and I always feel that the fairly well constructed criticism falls apart near the end when the dialogue becomes way too general and sweeping with its alarmist tone. I get that it's trying to make a strong impact, but it can do so without resorting to statements that can feel unfair or provocative in nature.

I've always wanted entertainment to have something for everyone by having diversity in the creation and consumption of any medium. And while I think it's important for any medium to realize the darker/sexist implications of certain tropes that appear in media, my ideal solution is to promote greater diversity rather than suggesting that the industry should limit or stop using certain tropes altogether.

Some games cater to certain genders and that should be okay, just like films and books do. What we need are more games made by different people so we can slowly make the market audience more diverse and balanced instead of simply male-centric. I feel like we're moving towards that as game studios become more international.

It would be better if they didn't use the killing or abuse of no named female characters to try and make their characters look dark. They don't use random male characters for this because they know even the gullible won't be fooled by it then.

God of War III had a moment like this that really gnawed at me. There is a prolonged segment where you have a topless chained woman that you string along and essentially kill by forcing her to do a task she has no way of surviving. After she dies a gruesome death, a trophy pops up: "I didn't do it... But I wish I did!"

My first thought was "are you fucking kidding me?!" Way worse than whatever Sessler got all angry about in Ascension.

Incredibly gross.
 
Random males have been used. They have been used in God of War, in Far Cry 3, in GTA, etc.

Random guys die all the time. I'd say much more frequently than females. Because people don't bat an eye if a male is murdered, but female deaths are more paid attention to.

A lot of this to me is like the number 23. You just start seeing it everywhere even if there really is no significance to it, but our brains are obsessed by patterns so its all you will see once you focus on it. Eventually it looks like a pandemic cause you see the #23 a lot! But the other numbers are just as common if not more... Not saying it is not an issue, but it can be hyped up to bigger proportions than it actually is.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying it usually isn't used as a method to show the evil of a character or how dark the setting is. Sometimes that happens too of course but I feel it is a lot less common and usually carries a different tone.
 
This is pretty similar to how I feel.

I've watched all her videos as they came out, and I always feel that the fairly well constructed criticism falls apart near the end when the dialogue becomes way too general and sweeping with its alarmist tone. I get that it's trying to make a strong impact, but it can do so without resorting to statements that can feel unfair or provocative in nature.

I've always wanted entertainment to have something for everyone by having diversity in the creation and consumption of any medium. And while I think it's important for any medium to realize the darker/sexist implications of certain tropes that appear in media, my ideal solution is to promote greater diversity rather than suggesting that the industry should limit or stop using certain tropes altogether.

Some games cater to certain genders and that should be okay, just like films and books do. What we need are more games made by different people so we can slowly make the market audience more diverse and balanced instead of simply male-centric. I feel like we're moving towards that as game studios become more international.



God of War III had a moment like this that really gnawed at me. There is a prolonged segment where you have a topless chained woman that you string along and essentially kill by forcing her to do a task she has no way of surviving. After she dies a gruesome death, a trophy pops up: "I didn't do it... But I wish I did!"

My first thought was "are you fucking kidding me?!" Way worse than whatever Sessler got all angry about in Ascension.

Incredibly gross.

Yeah she uses that example in her new video, probably the best example she's ever brought up.

Thunder foot, huh? Cool.

Did TF do something wrong? I don't know who he is but in these threads he's always taken as a joke. Genuine question.
 
Well I have some videos with people that can speak a lot better than me.

http://youtu.be/WGxz2mC0DPI?t=22s - I would watch this one first.
Looks like I won't get away with stealing his broken clock metaphor

http://youtu.be/l9Ju-1I1DTU - http://youtu.be/WuRSaLZidWI The videos have dumb names but he has really good points.

I think the first video is where I stand. There is no thesis to her videos. She is not helping feminism she is hurting it. And for the record I would like to see more well written females in video game and I hate bullshit fan-service anime.

C'mon, thunderfoot, really? You want to attempt to say she's hurting feminisim by pimping the works of a guy that has videos titled "If men acted like feminists" and "Why does feminism poison everything." I don't know how people that get so up in arms about Sarkeesian seem to flock to people far more extreme than her on the other side and try to pretend like they're rational or balanced.
 
What does this even mean?



My response from earlier in the thread:


"And for her historical accuracy point at the end, the idea of dragons or super powers are exciting because they are extraordinary in an ordinary world. It makes those things things more special/more exciting. Her argument is that because john marston can hold 30 guns in an invisible back-pack, it should not be unreasonable for him to then also fly. Why yes in a virtual video game world no it shouldn't, but there is a certain balance between striking fun and believeablity in game worlds, and having everything break the rules of reality means that nothing is exciting, as breaking the rules is the norm."

...
How come Kratos doesn't have casual sex with young men and boys then?

Pederasty was a huge part of Greek culture. They almost exclusively only had sex with women to have a child. At all other times they'd have sex with a younger man or boy. That even makes sense, because it prevented unwanted pregnancy...Why isn't pederasty a huge part of God of War?

How come that is somehow omitted but sexual exploitation of women is rampant? (I mean, the answer is obvious, but please answer it anyways)
 
Yeah she uses that example in her new video, probably the best example she's ever brought up.
Yeah for sure. Just posted out loud here because I kinda assumed plenty of people posting probably didn't watch the vid. I was surprised at the time GOWIII released that not many people were talking about that scene. Not in gaming communities I was in at the time anyway, I wasn't part of GAF then.
 
That God of War III example bothered the hell out of me at the time of playing the game. It's fucked up. The fact that Sessler had so much issue with Ascension blows my mind when III is way worse.
 
...
How come Kratos doesn't have casual sex with young men and boys then?

Pederasty was a huge part of Greek culture. They almost exclusively only have sex with women to have a child. At all other times you'd have sex with a younger man or boy. That even makes sense, because it prevented unwanted pregnancy...Why isn't pederasty a huge part of God of War?

How come that is somehow omitted but sexual exploitation of women is rampant?

Because GoW is based less off Greek Culture and more on Greek Mythology. It's been a while since i've studied the mythology but the only homosexual character I can think of was the pond nymph who looked back up at narcissus.

And again, GoW is based entirely on myth, why doesn't he have more sex with men and young boys? Probably because of the shit storm that would have caused. More so than any violence in the game. Which is sad but probably the truth.
 
But it makes complete sense. Prostitutes need to advertise their body or, if already paid for, pleasure the client. Why would men be naked in a brothel with female prostitutes? The women are the ones on sale and being paid to be seen naked.

I think your thinking of a strip club.
 
Because GoW is based less off Greek Culture and more on Greek Mythology. It's been a while since i've studied the mythology but the only homosexual character I can think of was the pond nymph who looked back up at narcissus.

And again, GoW is based entirely on myth, why doesn't he have more sex with men and young boys? Probably because of the shit storm that would have caused. More so than any violence in the game. Which is sad but probably the truth.

If you were a young man, in order to join the military or religion of Zeus you had to have sex with older men...


And it's all over the mythology anyways. Just because it was retconned out doesn't mean it wasn't there...Why would they're gods not do what they're culture enforced?

I think I'm getting somewhere with this...

Why would there be naked ladies at all anyways? In the Classical Greek Period (Especially Archiac Greek Art) depicting a nude woman was disgusting and shameful. They were in love with the male body. It was the opposite of how it is now. Men were sexualized and women were always clothed. It started switching up later in Greek sculpture. But just compare the male kouroi to the female kore. Which one is naked all the time?
 
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