Do you actually care what race/sex a main character is?

I do not care personally. Given the choice, and all things being equal, I will choose female characters. For better or worse, I prefer to look at females and do not relate at all to gaming avatars. I have never played a game with a main character that represents me in race. I can appreciate that others may desire to feel represented, though I have to admit that I don't sympathize with the idea of forcing it and so--apologies--am okay with people, including myself, not feeling represented.

I'm much more concerned with ensuring that minorities are given the same opportunities in the industry where they can then represent themselves if they choose to. I fully believe that, given a diverse group of creators, a diverse group of characters will naturally follow.
 
I prefer playing as male characters. I don't play as a female often even when it's optional. A good game is a good game though so in that sense it doesn't matter to me at all. I think having variety of races is more interesting and important insofar as pushing diversity in gaming. Females are getting their due slowly but surely. Gimme more Wei Shen type characters though.
 
I don't care as long as the character fits the story and the story is good. Playing as a SWM is also fine by me as that is what I am, so I can relate to it. The industry is driven by guys like me, both as developers and consumers so it's no coincidence that most characters are like that. I think once females and minorities start forming their own companies that will change a lot.
 
Would much rather play something different than a white male, it is just so generic. I also think that women typically do a better job voice acting than men.
 
I do. It has nothing to do with identifying with the character. It's about having more variety. I like some variety since I do place quite a bit of importance on story. Female characters can react differently and have an effect on the kind of story we get.

I prefer female characters but will not mind playing male characters, as I have most of my life. Recently I've been getting increasingly annoyed when I see a generic blank male self insert character but no choice for a female. It is starting to affect my interest in a game. I find that I'm quicker to dismiss games that have a generic white male character. I'm also increasingly aware of the character they use to promote a game, in cases where there's character creation. Freedom wars is one recent example that mainly used the standard male for promotion, though on magazines they would try to include the standard female on the back cover. Dragon age inquisition has been using a variety of gender, race and class, which sits well with me.

I'm Asian, but do not mind paying white or black. I do think that I'm not as bothered by race as I am by gender. Not at the moment anyway.

A little more variety in Sexuality would be nice too. And not in a choice based game like dragon age.
 
It doesn't bother me what the main character's sex/race is when buying or playing any games but I have to admit I do have certain preferences in certain games. I mainly like to use males in games (it just seems more believable to me to be using a male for a lot of these situations these game characters seem to find themselves in and also because I am male) but for some reason I prefer playing Resident Evil games as a female. It might be because of Jill and the original game etc but I always envision that series with a female as the main character. So yea there will be a couple of odd examples where I prefer to play as a female.

Also I prefer to use black males in games as long as they aren't stereotypes or loud mouths like Cole Train etc. I really don't know why this is but then again I feel sorry for guys with beards IRL (it's like just because they have a beard they might need my help or something...lol) and I can't explain that either.

I'm Indian.
 
No I do not care. I care more about if the character is well written then what race/sex they are. We could use more females and people of different races but if they are not well written then I will not care.
 
Not at all but I have found that when I can create a character, I always make a female character.


Note: I'm a man.
 
characters8okbn.jpg

This one's worse than the first white guy face jpg. Shanoa used as the token woman is most shameful.
 
Oh, you're talking about the immature CoD "bro" gamer?

I've had racial and homophobic slurs thrown at me by kids too young to know what they're saying, but that's not my fault. That's the parent/brother/relative who bought the game for a kid that's too violent and not age appropriate/old/mature enough to play it.
FYI, minorities do it too. It's a really poor form of trash talk. I've learned to tune it out or mute.

There are plenty of games that don't go online and have you berated by 13 yr olds screaming slurs. Once again, online gaming is different for all gamers. Broad stroke brushes aren't helping it. Poor example.
Characterizing the racism, sexism, and homophobia as being the result of young children or "bro" gamers, primarily playing multiplayer shooters, isn't helping either. You're dismissing the very real, very pervasive attitudes that come from people of all ages in this community, including adults, regardless of genre.

I play Elder Scrolls Online. It's the first MMO I've played in years. Guess what? General chat, zone chat, and even guild chat let me experience some really fucking terrible homophobia. I got to see people drop gay, fag, faggot, getting "gayed out" of something, etc. I got to see people say I'm going to hell, I'm disgusting, that gay marriage is equal to or worse than bestiality. I got to see people defend that shit, saying it shouldn't bother anyone because who gives a shit about gay people amirite, they don't play games. Want to know what it's like as a closeted person to try and escape the pressure of the real world only to see that shit in the games you play, across genres? There's a reason I don't fucking bother with regular chat in any setting now. Please don't dismiss or minimize what I experience or go through in this community, in the games I play, as being because of 12 year olds or frat gamers. It's not only untrue, it's kind of insulting.

And adding "but minorities too" just seems so unnecessary. Yes, no duh that some people from minority groups say dumb, mean, harassing shit. I don't like that either. So what? It comes across like an attempt to minimize this.

I don't want characters shoved into games just to fit a diverse character into a story that never included one in the first place, otherwise you get characters that are stereotypes and caricatures.
How and when would this happen, though? Wouldn't they be included as part of the regular design process like almost any other character?
 
This thread is useless. It's like asking your lecture hall "Hey are you a racist or sexist? Raise your hands y'all."
 
Well, obviously gameplay is the most important factor. No one is asking for crappy games with diverse characters. But, narrative is important too and you can't deny that we gamers have an interest in the characters we play as (maybe not in Cod or Battlefield games though). Look at posts all over gaf and you'll see gamers discussing characters by name and personality. Lets not pretend that these protagonists and the stories told don't matter.

I'm not saying that they don't matter at all. My point is simply that there are a lot of people that don't care about story in games. Some even feel that it's become too much of a focus for some developers which has led to gameplay taking a backseat to narrative. And you don't have to look too far to see the nongame comments thrown around toward certain story driven games. That's why I pointed out game sales where you see that the best selling games aren't really titles that are focused on storytelling. Minecraft is one of the biggest games around right now, and it's entirely about gameplay. I remember a thread not too long ago where people were genuinely shocked to find that the playable character in the game actually had a name.
 
I wonder if all the people saying that they don't care would feel the same way if 95% of all protagonists were suddenly middle aged women. I mean, it's easy to not care when most games are already "catered" to you.

Fine by me. I'd love to see how devs would work middle aged women into a call of duty or hack and slash game. Might make for some more interesting and bizarre story lines.
 
^^^Lol, that would be interesting to say the least.

I'm not saying that they don't matter at all. My point is simply that there are a lot of people that don't care about story in games. Some even feel that it's become too much of a focus for some developers which has led to gameplay taking a backseat to narrative. And you don't have to look too far to see the nongame comments thrown around toward certain story driven games. That's why I pointed out game sales where you see that the best selling games aren't really titles that are focused on storytelling. Minecraft is one of the biggest games around right now, and it's entirely about gameplay. I remember a thread not too long ago where people were genuinely shocked to find that the playable character in the game actually had a name.
Sure, lots of games are light on narrative and that's great. But, when there is a narrative and a defined main character, that character is typically a white man. So, saying that you don't care about race/sex is easy when the race and sex are already your own. My whole point was to try to get those posters who answered no to the thread's question to ask themselves if they would feel the same way if most video game characters were not white men like themselves. That's it.
 
I wonder if all the people saying that they don't care would feel the same way if 95% of all protagonists were suddenly middle aged women. I mean, it's easy to not care when most games are already "catered" to you.

They'll say they still don't care, and that's because they just don't and can't know how it feels.
 
They'll say they still don't care, and that's because they just don't and can't know how it feels.

How do you figure that?

I've played as a female or a black person, for example, on numerous occasions. It's never bothered me in the slightest.
 
I don't usually care, but I'd be the first to say that protagonists have become incredibly homogenised and seem to follow the same template, Ubisoft and EA being prime candidates for this.

Far Cry 3, despite its gameplay hooks, is probably the worst offender. The fact that he was an American "white boy" (Vaas' words, in fact) that fancied himself a warrior native of the islands after spending less than a week there is what takes me out of the game every time his character gets referenced in-game. Even if the writer says it was an intentional criticism and that the natives took advantage of his messiah complex (which you can see some hints of as I replay this game, but otherwise it's completely fucking tone-deaf).

Hopefully Far Cry 4 won't suffer from these particular pitfalls.
 
No. All I care about is whether or not the character is interesting. Sadly, video games seem to be no better at that than they are at representation.
 
I play most games for story, as long as the character is interesting and not bland/generic then I don't mind the gender
 
I play video games for the story and gameplay. If the protagonist grows on me then I become a fan. So no, I don't care what race or sex the main character is.
 
Characterizing the racism, sexism, and homophobia as being the result of young children or "bro" gamers, primarily playing multiplayer shooters, isn't helping either. You're dismissing the very real, very pervasive attitudes that come from people of all ages in this community, including adults, regardless of genre.

I play Elder Scrolls Online. It's the first MMO I've played in years. Guess what? General chat, zone chat, and even guild chat let me experience some really fucking terrible homophobia. I got to see people drop gay, fag, faggot, getting "gayed out" of something, etc. I got to see people say I'm going to hell, I'm disgusting, that gay marriage is equal to or worse than bestiality. I got to see people defend that shit, saying it shouldn't bother anyone because who gives a shit about gay people amirite, they don't play games. Want to know what it's like as a closeted person to try and escape the pressure of the real world only to see that shit in the games you play, across genres? There's a reason I don't fucking bother with regular chat in any setting now. Please don't dismiss or minimize what I experience or go through in this community, in the games I play, as being because of 12 year olds or frat gamers. It's not only untrue, it's kind of insulting.

And adding "but minorities too" just seems so unnecessary. Yes, no duh that some people from minority groups say dumb, mean, harassing shit. I don't like that either. So what? It comes across like an attempt to minimize this.

How and when would this happen, though? Wouldn't they be included as part of the regular design process like almost any other character?

A lot of people say ignorant shit about other groups that they know little about and I often have to add "minority" because it becomes "oh, white males are the cause of every problem ever". Nothing should go without saying, but everything should be explained and reasoned.

Have you ever told them what they were saying was wrong or why it's wrong?
Have you ever told another person the historical context of that word?

I gotta tell you, I learned about it and now I'll get really upset and berate and yell at people when anyone uses that slur.

I'm sorry that you feel you have to hide in a fantasy world where you're supposed to feel accepted. I won't pretend to know what that's like. I don't, which is why I'm willing to fight for those who feel that way. Games are about escapism and entertainment.

But the gaming community is a large community to broad stroke.

Gamers encompasses a large group of people. The entrance/barrier to entry into being a gamer is having enough money and interest to buy a console/PC/Smartphone and pay for video games. That's the bar. It's not very high.

Most of us are most likely generational gamers, others are getting into it last gen. Regardless, they're all gamers.

I would never minimize someone else's experiences, because those are your experiences and I have mine.

As far as your design question, all I can say with certainty is that when games are designed, a lot is left on the cutting room floor that's either gutted by a producer or by a publisher. RE4 went through 3 different design cycles before the end product became what it is today.
 
I detest this picture so much. Absolutely no context applied at all. I mean, who complains about playing as Big Boss besides people that want to play as Solid Snake? Frank West was a lovable doofus that covered wars. Was Max Payne supposed to be black in Max Payne 2? Some of these characters are defined, loved, well designed.

Character diversity and such is a problem, using that picture as an argument screams laziness and ignorance.

While it makes sense to say that there is a dominant number of white male characters in leading roles, I find it plainly ridiculous to say they all look alike or have the same haircut and so on, as many of these images are specifically trying to prove. I wonder how effective it would be to do the same for the actors who dominate the leading roles of films with similar settings and narrative. Like imagine one with Christian Bale, Robert Downey Jr., etc. "see, they are all the same people!" I dislike when people try to make arguments based on 4chan images.

no that's the point

Tango Gameworks is set in Tokyo, headlined by a dude who's first name is Shinji. Not to mention what you see ethnically when you compare the protagonists of the fully Japanese Dead Rising 1 and Dead Rising 3. Not to mention most of the Belmonts look more like the one on the left (with different hair colors) than the non-Belmont woman. It's a troll image, anyway.


EDIT: I forgot to answer the topic. For as much as it is a non-question, no it doesn't bother me one way or another. Wouldn't mind seeing more variety (I think I like that term better than diversity in this context) overall, as when I play games with character creators I tend to make someone who I haven't made in the last few games - different genders and skin color (since you can't really choose a race in these games).
 
I don't. But I certainly care about the main char's personality, enough for me to decide whether I want to continue playing the game or not.
 
Excellent post ab.aterno. HIt it on the head. If you're a hetero white male, it's probably best not to speak for a minority, as though you've experience what they've experienced.

Additionally, we don't always know what goes on between development and publishing. It's usually publishing who'll stifle any creative pushes for a game to be inclusive or push diversity.

Video games have only existed for about 40+ years. The medium is new, and the people creating them are programmers and artists working long hours for low pay just to work in the field. The medium only entered 3D 8 years ago. I don't want characters shoved into games just to fit a diverse character into a story that never included one in the first place, otherwise you get characters that are stereotypes and caricatures.

This is not about shoving diverse characters into a story, this is about creating stories specifically about them. Video games (often, rightfully) get a lot of shit for having terrible/repetitive narratives and characters (and dont retort by saying it's all about the gameplay, that is a bullshit reductionist argument that completely ignores the communities that surround character/story enthusiasm), by tapping into the experiences and lives of diverse people, you enable new stories to be told and out of that new game experiences.

Yes video games are a new medium, which is why it's unfortunate that video game creation isn't prone to the same intellectual rigor that film is, or literature, or music. If video games want to be considered art, and considered beyond the fantasies of dudebros in their basement, then treating them as more than a fun past time that has no relation to the culture and the outside world isn't helping this process. Games are an incredibly important medium and the attitudes of those that make them, will be reflected in those that consume them, and have larger ramifications for society at large. Diversity is one of the key ways video games can get themselves out of their intellectual black hole. And less shitty games "journalism".
 
I wish games had diverse, interesting characters with interesting backstories as their protagonists, enemies, etc. Most games these days have overly generic characters and enemies lacking both personality and backstory. This is especially prevalent in today's create a character games, which I find obnoxiously lazy on the game designer's part.
 
I do, I love playing girls if I have a choice.

And I wish there were more non-white characters I could play as. That doesn't mean I don't play games with white males. Some of my absolute favorite games star white dudes (Metal Gear, The Last of us, Silent Hill)

I would like to see some more black main characters (male and female) that aren't god awful stereotypes (COLE TRAIN).
 
How do you figure that?

I've played as a female or a black person, for example, on numerous occasions. It's never bothered me in the slightest.

It's not that it would bother you to play as others, it's that only people who are outside the common norm would have the sensitivities that come with noticing the rarity of portrayals that they identify with, not just empathize with, over many years of maturing.

Yearning to be portrayed and knowing that feeling does not come to those who are part of the commonly portrayed characteristics, no matter how open they are to seeing those portrayals for the sake of others' interests in the representation or for their own interest in gaining diverse social perspectives.
 
Of course it damn well matters. And everyone replying "no" hasn't thought about the implications of a gaming culture saturated in white, hetero males and how that reflects a broader culture with the gaming community (and society at large) that's sexist, racist and homophobic. Changing attitudes regarding who we see in media (not just games) is important in creating a more inclusive, vibrant society.

Everyone saying "as long as the character is good, it shouldn't matter", well ugh, part of why I'd like to see less white hetero males as my playable character is so we can see games expand narratively and tackle new and interesting stories. Diversity is good for gaming, as it has been for other mediums.

Hardly. I think it's an issue with all creative industries but particularly within gaming culture, which has an abundant lack of diverse representation, both in who is making the games and who is in the games.

If you've played online games for more than five minutes, you'll be confronted with casual sexism, racism and homophobia, and by making games that are almost constantly about a white hetero male, games are implicitly reinforcing the idea that games are only for that subset of the community and that in turn excludes minority voices from the greater discourse, because games are not made for them. Everything within gaming culture reinforces this notion - from overt sexualisation/abuse of women, to almost non-existent LGBT characters, and a lack of racially diverse characters that aren't the bad guys.

Not all gamers are sexist, racist and homophobic, that is fallacy, but games, the gaming culture and game development don't do enough to try and help change the parts that are.

Yeah. Mix it up. I want to play more bad-ass females. Indigenous people. Blacks. Samoans. More than the same old same old. Nothing wrong with <fill in your favourite food here> but I'll be damned if I want to eat it every single day.

That said, if the game itself sucks it doesn't help matters.


Could not agree more. I'd LOVE to see the story beats that we are now currently mostly missing. Give me variety, devs/publishers. Give me representation. Give us all exposure.

Make a damn difference.
 
Excellent post ab.aterno. HIt it on the head. If you're a hetero white male, it's probably best not to speak for a minority, as though you've experience what they've experienced.

This is not about shoving diverse characters into a story, this is about creating stories specifically about them. Video games (often, rightfully) get a lot of shit for having terrible/repetitive narratives and characters (and dont retort by saying it's all about the gameplay, that is a bullshit reductionist argument that completely ignores the communities that surround character/story enthusiasm), by tapping into the experiences and lives of diverse people, you enable new stories to be told and out of that new game experiences.

Yes video games are a new medium, which is why it's unfortunate that video game creation isn't prone to the same intellectual rigor that film is, or literature, or music. If video games want to be considered art, and considered beyond the fantasies of dudebros in their basement, then treating them as more than a fun past time that has no relation to the culture and the outside world isn't helping this process. Games are an incredibly important medium and the attitudes of those that make them, will be reflected in those that consume them, and have larger ramifications for society at large. Diversity is one of the key ways video games can get themselves out of their intellectual black hole. And less shitty games "journalism".

Thank you for assuming I'm hetero, which I am, but I'm a minority, and I speak from collective experience of 19 years of gaming and personal experiences with being disenfranchised as a minority, which if I was to go into derails this thread. So please don't ever do that again and speak so presumptuously for me. I don't need you to speak for me and I'm courteous enough not to speak for you, so don't. It's "probably" disrespectful.

I'm sure Shigeru Miyamoto was doing rigorous academic research when he made his protagonist for his Dokey Kong arcade cabinet a Hetero Italian fat plumber, surely not because he was out of ideas and his landlord in Nintendo of America, a guy by the name of Mario, happened to be there and give him a name and identity to use.

But that's not what you want to hear.

You want to hear about developers like Naughty Dog or Ubisoft having a moral imperative to create diversity in their IPs, right?

The Last of Us didn't win GOTY or sell well because Joel was white or Ellie was white, it won because of the large scale advertising effort that can rival FF7 with mainstream reach, on top of a solid third person cover system and a very relatable story of loss and redemption that is post-apocalyptic fare very similar to The Road, along with very strong performances by Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson that rivals dramatic films.

You know when it was very clear to me that the developers were bigots? In the Far Cry series and the Uncharted series with respect to the waves of minority enemies who were only there as cannon fodder or the dialogue that paints Far Cry's protagonist as the great White hope and anyone with different color an enemy. Please don't tell me when I don't realize when diversity is treated poorly. I notice it very clearly. Bioshock Infinite hit me over the head with its racial themes. I'm aware of it and I look for it.

I'm going to sound like a broken record and I'm only going to echo the sentiment I know a lot of Gaffers echo before being called racist, but gameplay, and I mean gameplay that stands out in a crowded, heavily over saturated market, is what sells games. That and great narrative and prose. Otherwise, that game, no matter how diverse the characters are or how diverse the world can be, will not be noticed and will not sell, and when it doesn't sell, publishers take notice and won't fund any more efforts for diversity in gaming as it should be defined by you.

When you know the large history of games that released(which is libraries of games as far back as Pong) and games that sold well and games that didn't sell well, one universal agreement is that those games were marketed very well and had innovation in gameplay.

It's not that developers don't try to include more diversity either, it's that they do and when it's not noticed, it makes it seem like a societal problem and not a matter of timing, or budget, or vision, or anything that a developer says, or even the ill will of a publisher.

Fortunately, there are games that are universally accepted as artistic works(like Shadow of the Colossus or ICO or Journey or Braid or FEZ), so I thank those games for being recognized as artistic works.

I will not comment on the state of games journalism. It can run from terrible and juvenile to flat out manipulative.
 
It's not that it would bother you to play as others, it's that only people who are outside the common norm would have the sensitivities that come with noticing the rarity of portrayals that they identify with, not just empathize with, over many years of maturing.

Yearning to be portrayed and knowing that feeling does not come to those who are part of the commonly portrayed characteristics, no matter how open they are to seeing those portrayals for the sake of others' interests in the representation or for their own interest in gaining diverse social perspectives.

How important to the situation is it to have people from the majority understand what it feels like to "yearn" for more characters from whatever minority you may be a part of?
 
Yeah. Mix it up. I want to play more bad-ass females. Indigenous people. Blacks. Samoans. More than the same old same old. Nothing wrong with <fill in your favourite food here> but I'll be damned if I want to eat it every single day.

That said, if the game itself sucks it doesn't help matters.

That's a really great analogy. I'll remember that one, haha.
 
Why would you say anything other than 'no' on a place like NeoGAF where you would spend the rest of your days here being ostracized with a stigma?

If anyone actually did care they're smart enough not to say it. This is essentially just a back-patting thread.
 
I care much more that I can empathize with my characters actions rather than superficial details. In that sense, I want to be able to relate. Niko Bellic was a poor main character for me because he just made decisions I would never have made in his situation. Same with the Assassin's Creed characters.
 
Why would you say anything other than 'no' on a place like NeoGAF where you would spend the rest of your days here being ostracized with a stigma?

If anyone actually did care they're smart enough not to say it. This is essentially just a back-patting thread.

Because some people don't really give a shit.
 
Thank you for assuming I'm hetero, which I am, but I'm a minority, and I speak from collective experience of 19 years of gaming and personal experiences with being disenfranchised as a minority, which if I was to go into derails this thread. So please don't ever do that again and speak so presumptuously for me. I don't need you to speak for me and I'm courteous enough not to speak for you, so don't. It's "probably" disrespectful.

I apologise. That was wrong of me to assume and to say.

I'm going to sound like a broken record and I'm only going to echo the sentiment I know a lot of Gaffers echo before being called racist, but gameplay, and I mean gameplay that stands out in a crowded, heavily over saturated market, is what sells games. That and great narrative and prose. Otherwise, that game, no matter how diverse the characters are or how diverse the world can be, will not be noticed and will not sell, and when it doesn't sell, publishers take notice and won't fund any more efforts for diversity in gaming as it should be defined by you.

When you know the large history of games that released(which is libraries of games as far back as Pong) and games that sold well and games that didn't sell well, one universal agreement is that those games were marketed very well and had innovation in gameplay.

I sincerely think that a lot of game developers and publishers are just completely unaware of their lack of diversity and what this can mean. The white male hero has become the norm, which I think is problematic in itself. I think when games are made, the creators are working off assumptions of who is playing their games, and the only framework they have for that is their own experiences.

All I want is games to try and reflect a more diverse array of characters, it'll reflect a maturation of the industry to what many see as still a juvenile past time.

I will not comment on the state of games journalism. It can run from terrible and juvenile to flat out manipulative.

There, we can agree.
 
Not at all. I played and enjoyed NOLF,played and enjoyed Beyond Good and Evil, and played and somewhat enjoyed Tomb Raider 3. The sex/gender of the PC didn't matter as long as the game was good.

That said, during a character creation process I'll always go for the male option because I'm creating a representation of myself.
 
sure?

i'm more interested in playing something a little more different than whatever the last thing i played was

it's why i like games sometimes that don't even have characters a la rez or dyad
 
yeeahh, many people say they don't... but we know that's a whole lotta malarkey. For me, nope. Just make sure the Xter is somewhat interesting.
 
Top Bottom