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[Morrigan Stark]

It's not always a brothel, usually it's a warehouse full of crates.

Gotta have that waist-high cover, dude.

 

[Sendou]

Can I watch this without the fear of being heavily spoiled? Most of those games I haven't played and I do want to play them in future.

 

[stupei]

I wonder what actually makes WoW more inclusive. I bet Blizzard is guilty of quite a lot of those tropes that Anita discusses.

I think maybe part of it is that WoW is so massive that it's easier to avoid the problematic stuff than it is in games where that would make up a fair percentage of the content.

I don't want to make broad sweeping generalizations, but a lot of the women I know who got really into WoW enjoy the same things most men do, obviously -- filling up bars, getting cool loot -- but also greatly appreciated an outlet for socialized multi-player gaming that was more cooperative than competitive when that wasn't available in as many places.

snip

I keep going back to the Dragon Age city elf origin because it's what stuck out at me the most, but what exactly does she think is problematic about this scene? What would she have had the devs do differently? Similarly with the prostitutes getting beat up in Red Dead: what would she have the game do differently? Remove the prostitutes? Or is there a way to have prostitutes in your western without being Part of the Problem?

It's problematic because it seems like across all media when you want something bad to happen and you can't get away with hurting animals or children -- because that's going too far -- threaten sexual violence against women. It's lazy, it's trite, and as she points out herself, it's short-hand for gritty danger for your frequently male protagonists.

You can express "this world is dark" without subjecting women to violence, but the possibility of just not violating their female characters never seems to occur to the people telling these stories. What would happen if a woman wasn't threatened with rape in a video game? Would the world suddenly become less rich and interesting? Would the world with elves, dwarves and dragons suddenly be cartoonishly unrealistic? This idea that we must subject women to violence as part of the texture of a "realistic" world, even in fantasy, is what's problematic.

When creating a video game rendition of a real world setting, like the old west, allowing for a prostitute in your storyline with a bit of agency -- rather than a woman who is abused, rescued, and then murdered anyway -- would probably be a good place to start. But why have a woman who does things for herself when the male player character can rescue her instead, I guess. As is essentially the point in these two videos: the women don't really exist as entities themselves, but as a vehicle for an environment or tone and opportunities for heroic machismo.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

It's problematic because it seems like across all media when you want something bad to happen and you can't get away with hurting animals or children -- because that's going too far -- threaten sexual violence against women. It's lazy, it's trite, and as she points out herself, it's short-hand for gritty danger for your frequently male protagonists.

Is it always lazy and trite, though? In some circumstances can it be more than that? Is every depiction of sexual violence against women inherently something to avoid?

You can express "this world is dark" without subjecting women to violence, but the possibility of just not violating their female characters never seems to occur to the people telling these stories. What would happen if a woman wasn't threatened with rape in a video game? Would the world suddenly become less rich and interesting? Would the world with elves, dwarves and dragons suddenly be cartoonishly unrealistic? This idea that we must subject women to violence as part of the texture of a "realistic" world, even in fantasy, is what's problematic.

You don't think that the threat of sexual violence against minority women in the context of a society divided along racial lines is something to be explored? Are you going to start complaining about any book about the Jim Crow south that depicts a black woman getting raped by a white man because they should have thought up some other way to make the story "realistic?" Bioware wanted to depict a particular sort of society, and in human societies throughout history where racial or caste hierarchies are strictly enforced the threat of sexual violence against lower-caste women has been one of the most salient characteristics of that inequality.

Why, in this specific circumstance, would some other plot have been more appropriate, in your opinion?

When creating a video game rendition of a real world setting, like the old west, allowing for a prostitute in your storyline with a bit of agency -- rather than a woman who is abused, rescued, and then murdered anyway -- would probably be a good place to start. But why have a woman who does things for herself when the male player character can rescue her instead, I guess.

So you're OK with prostitutes and brothels in video games so long as they have agency?

As is essentially the point in these two videos: the women don't really exist as entities themselves, but as a vehicle for an environment or tone and opportunities for heroic machismo.

Except, of course, in the Dragon Age city elf origin the player character can be a woman. Is that also "heroic machismo?" If it is, what would not be heroic machismo?

 

[APF]

You don't think that the threat of sexual violence against minority women in the context of a society divided along racial lines is something to be explored?

The tougher the subject, the better a writer you need to be in order to do the subject justice. If you're a bad writer you run the risk of shitting on the ideas you're presumably trying to explore.

 

[JackDT]

Even if every game was doing a thoughtful take, it would still be kind of weird to have it be such a common theme.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

The tougher the subject, the better a writer you need to be in order to do the subject justice. If you're a bad writer you run the risk of shitting on the ideas you're presumably trying to explore.

Of course. But there's a difference between a scene being bad because it's poorly-written and a scene being problematic to the point of misogyny.

 

[JackDT]

An individual game where a girlfriend/daughter is murdered to provide motivation for the hero doesn't bother me in a vacuum -- could certainly be done well. When I see it in game after game though, even if it's just a lazy developer calling on the first trope they think of, it gets tiresome and I roll my eyes.

 

[APF]

Of course. But there's a difference between a scene being bad because it's poorly-written and a scene being problematic to the point of misogyny.

Rectangle / square.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Can I watch this without the fear of being heavily spoiled? Most of those games I haven't played and I do want to play them in future.

Big spoiler right in the beginning for BioShock.

Edit: second thought, not TOO big, but it's there.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Rectangle / square.

It's not possible to have well-written but problematic literature? It's not possible to have poorly-written but ideologically acceptable literature?

 

[Nexas]

An individual game where a girlfriend/daughter is murdered to provide motivation for the hero doesn't bother me in a vacuum -- could certainly be done well. When I see it in game after game though, even if it's just a lazy developer calling on the first trope they think of, it gets tiresome and I roll my eyes.

This is a pretty interesting point. The extreme overuse of these tropes also hurts genuinely good stories that use them. Tropes are not inherently bad, but their overuse can be. You can tell a great story that has a damsel in distress in it, but all I'll be able to think is "Oh great another damsel in distress." If developers were less reliant those tropes then people will be less likely to roll their eyes when they try to tell interesting stories with them.

 

[APF]

It's not possible to have well-written but problematic literature? It's not possible to have poorly-written but ideologically acceptable literature?

I'm really not sure what you're talking about anymore? I think you're diverging from the original point. Hard issues need great writing. Bad writing can turn valid issues into total shit.

Spoiler

When good writing turns invalid issues into gold, that's called "propaganda."

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

This is a pretty interesting point. The extreme overuse of these tropes also hurts genuinely good stories that use them. Tropes are not inherently bad, but their overuse can be. You can tell a great story that has a damsel in distress in it, but all I'll be able to think is "Oh great another damsel in distress." If developers were less reliant those tropes then people will be less likely to roll their eyes when they try to tell interesting stories with them.

Note, of course, that if they weren't relying on these tropes they'd still be relying on tropes, just not tropes that you'd be particularly sensitive to. Other people elsewhere would be rolling their eyes just as hard at the new tropes.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I'm really not sure what you're talking about anymore?

I'm sorry, your last response to me was literally "rectangle/square." And somehow you're the one not sure what I'm talking about.

 

[RubberJohnny]

This is a pretty interesting point. The extreme overuse of these tropes also hurts genuinely good stories that use them. Tropes are not inherently bad, but their overuse can be. You can tell a great story that has a damsel in distress in it, but all I'll be able to think is "Oh great another damsel in distress." If developers were less reliant those tropes then people will be less likely to roll their eyes when they try to tell interesting stories with them.

Reminds me of this:

Mature themes can be very effective when they’re handled responsibly. A thought-out, well-researched narrative that comes from the right place can be extremely insightful, in any medium.

What you see here are examples of irresponsible storytelling. Creators who lean heavily on shock value in hopes of motivating the player, then use it as a shortcut to characterization. Creators who buy into society’s bigoted narratives, punch down on oppressed people, and call it "subversive". That’s not mature storytelling. It’s not insightful. It’s not groundbreaking. It’s boring, gutless exploitation, devoid of deeper meaning. Predicating a medium on that kind of dreck sets the bar incredibly low - and that’s where we’re at right now. We exist in a climate where politically-muddled, lazily-written, cash-grab nonsense is hailed as visionary, instead of being called out. And that’s bullshit.

 

[Nexas]

Note, of course, that if they weren't relying on these tropes they'd still be relying on tropes, just not tropes that you'd be particularly sensitive to. Other people elsewhere would be rolling their eyes just as hard at the new tropes.

But those tropes would not be portraying women in a negative light which is the primary issue here.

 

[APF]

I'm sorry, your last response to me was literally "rectangle/square." And somehow you're the one not sure what I'm talking about.

Every square is a rectangle, not every rectangle is a square.

 

[Warm Machine]

Anita comes across as setting up barriers against concepts within a narrative that involves any negative depiction of anyone or violent content. I take umbrage against that because it just sets up creative barriers and no go zones.

If a creator is building 14th century France then they should be free to show an unsanitized version of peoples attitudes and values. Whether the game world allows you to walk around with a full suit of armor in your backback as well as multiple weapons is a game contrivance but has little impact on the representation of place and time. Just because one thing is gamey doesn't mean everything needs to be gamey and therefor undermine the majority of the attempted creative direction.

That said, the examples shown are often cringe worthy due to lack of context or due to actual terrible execution. I can almost see the code for the scripts running and repeating. Where they are not scripted the embarrassing ideas like in the God of War sequence made me shake my head and sigh at how pathetic the thought process was building that section due to the casual high school level cruelty.

We are dealing with a really rough medium here. One where facets are running before they can walk. Do we want developers to simply wait for all of the technology and implementation finally hit a level before ideas and themes are explored so they have ideal impact?

 

[Spinluck]

Great video. Another good one from Anita, I think her last two have been the better of the bunch although I can't remember the others too well. Good to see Watchdogs in there, hope she continues to look at more recent titles as well.

Games need to drop the obsession with prostitutes, it's silly.

Really silly. The blatant objectification takes me completely out of these games sometimes.

 

[aeolist]

https://twitter.com/nullspeak/status/504045057507217408

bioshock 2 creative director

 

[Brakke]

https://twitter.com/nullspeak/status/504045057507217408

bioshock 2 creative director

"I am conflicted in regards to the concluding argument of the latest Feminist Frequency, but everything Bio2 was called out for, we deserved."

"Related: the systemic, repeatable content gets the most screentime. How your speaking AIs behave is key - they're the stars...like it or not"

 

[Eidan]

I find it encouraging to see people that work in the industry are watching these videos and actually taking notice. Despite a lot of players' knee jerk rejections of the criticisms leveled against their favorite hobby, I feel like substantive changes are coming. Eventually.

 

[Lime]

I find it encouraging to see people that work in the industry are watching these videos and actually taking notice. Despite a lot of players' knee jerk rejections of the criticisms leveled against their favorite hobby, I feel like substantive changes are coming. Eventually.

Yeah. Luckily empathy, reason, maturity, professionalism and Intelligence win out against ingrained sexism and lack of willingness to understand.

Did you see the Neil Druckmann quote on how Sarkeesian and others affected the characters in TLOU? That's also a good indication of how this affects the actual people in power.

 

[Eidan]

Yeah. Luckily empathy, reason, maturity, professionalism and Intelligence win out against ingrained sexism and lack of willingness to understand.

Did you see the Neil Druckmann quote on how Sarkeesian and others affected the characters in TLOU? That's also a good indication of how this affects the actual people in power.

Yep. The Druckmanm quote, along with the above Bioshock 2 one, were examples I was thinking of. Yessiree, I feel that real improvements are on the horizon.

If anything we may possibly see less brothels and strip clubs. It's kind of shocking seeing how many games have one or the other.

 

[KingJ2002]

Good points but I have to wonder if she's taking the video game narrative into consideration.

Overall many of these titles feature your middle aged male who personality is geared towards a hardened "black and white.... with the understanding of the grey at the end" type. The overall settings of these titles depict just that... a reality from the characters perspective.

Take Watch Dogs for example... Aiden Pearce is a guy who clearly is focused on revenge and sees the world as a dump to be manipulated... and the world's narrative enforces it with all the details you find about the people you hack. The atmosphere also enforces this as well to reinforce the purpose of the character

Spoiler

(so you can progress through the story and not feel guilty about mass murder all for the sake of your dead niece)

but at the same time provide a clear contrast of the wholesome "American values" he's trying to protect... such as his sister, her son, etc. so for every prostitute scene there's about 3 bonding moments between the pearce family.

Overall... she's right... settings and themes seem to be regurgitated through games. If it's not women it's another stereotype... that needs to change...

but that changes when there are different types of people who develop, design, and write these games.

 

[Cyrano]

I think the key issue when talking about these problems relates entirely to power structures, and the large majority of videogames are not only just fine with the status quo, they actively reinforce it. It's a question, ultimately, of where you're looking. Are you looking down at populations and reinforcing those positions or are you looking up at existing constructs and seeking to weaken the power and influence of those who already have too much? Videogames err dramatically on the side of the former and only rarely attempt to access the latter.

 

[SovereignSnake]

C'mon, thunderfoot, really? You want to attempt to say she's hurting feminisim by pimping the works of a guy that has videos titled "If men acted like feminists" and "Why does feminism poison everything." I don't know how people that get so up in arms about Sarkeesian seem to flock to people far more extreme than her on the other side and try to pretend like they're rational or balanced.

From watching his videos he does not seem to be totally against feminism. He is more against what radical feminist call,"feminism." But I would still like to know your or anyone's thought about the first video from RazorFist that I linked.

I don't really think I have much else to say about her. I mean if anyone wholeheartedly agrees with her then there is nothing I can say.

 

[Brakke]

Timely. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504437681527353344

 

[DrNeroCF]

Timely. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504437681527353344

Not really sure what she's trying to accomplish by posting that. Trying to say something about her detractors? I know that there's completely vile, barely human scum that disagree with her. I hope she things that the existence of complete nut bags says anything whatsoever about people who disagree with or criticize her. Are we supposed to feel particularly sorry for her? For women in general? Not to defend a message like that, but I feel really off about her motivations for posting it...

 

[inm8num2]

This video touched on one of my primary issues with numerous games and their villains. It seems like sometimes the heinousness of those villains is established by showing them commit awful, violent acts against women. That's not to say such acts are not heinous, but from a writing standpoint their overuse feels lazy and uninteresting.

 

[antigoon]

This video touched on one of my primary issues with numerous games and their villains. It seems like sometimes the heinousness of those villains is established by showing them commit awful, violent acts against women. That's not to say such acts are not heinous, but from a writing standpoint their overuse feels lazy and uninteresting.

Even if you don't agree with her worldview I feel like her videos do such a good job at displaying how lazy, shallow, and predictable games writing is. The backlash is baffling.

 

[stupei]

Not really sure what she's trying to accomplish by posting that. Trying to say something about her detractors? I know that there's completely vile, barely human scum that disagree with her. I hope she things that the existence of complete nut bags says anything whatsoever about people who disagree with or criticize her. Are we supposed to feel particularly sorry for her? For women in general? Not to defend a message like that, but I feel really off about her motivations for posting it...

He literally told her to, seemingly with the assumption that she would be too afraid to publicize such a scathing rebuttal that proves what a liar she is.

Even if you don't agree with her worldview I feel like her videos do such a good job at displaying how lazy, shallow, and predictable games writing is. The backlash is baffling.

I think the knee-jerk reactions prove that a lot of gamers are as uncomfortable with introspection or further consideration as the people writing the scripts. (Apparently much more so, since the visible responses from developers has been thoughtful. Guess it demonstrates a difference between impulses to create something better and interest merely in consuming that which is most convenient and digestible.)

 

[APF]

If talk around "SJWs" discussing popular culture has shown me anything, it's that a lot of people can't separate criticism of a thing from a personal attack for liking that thing. Further, a lot of people can't separate criticism of a thing from active censorship of that thing.

 

[Brakke]

Jeff Gerstmann tumblr.

http://blog.jeffgerstmann.net/post/...d-heels-in-wrestling-be-allowed-to-go-i#notes

How far should heels in wrestling be allowed to go? I think in some ways that the only way to get real heat nowadays would be to do things that are unacceptable in society. Should a wrestler be allowed to be completely racist or sexist to get heat? He's supposed to be a horrible person, but he's also being broadcast worldwide.

A: "I think there are reasons to have horrible racists, sexists, and other garbage-y people in fiction, but it helps when you make those reasons really good and really sound. I feel like most people use those “traits” as shortcuts to make a character a villain, and that’s pretty shitty. Wrestling is the king of character-building shortcuts via stereotypes and such, so expecting them to handle a tricky subject like that with any amount of subtlety or craft is asking too much of them.

On one hand, wrestling is fun because it’s hacky and shitty around the edges… but when you have an audience that large and children that emulate what they see in those characters, there are probably plenty of lines that wrestling just shouldn’t cross."

 

[ThirtyDegrees]

Anita comes across as setting up barriers against concepts within a narrative that involves any negative depiction of anyone or violent content. I take umbrage against that because it just sets up creative barriers and no go zones.

If a creator is building 14th century France then they should be free to show an unsanitized version of peoples attitudes and values.

She isn't claiming otherwise.

The problem is that video games often incentivize the player not only observing women as sex workers and sex objects, but they reward the player for participating in their objectification and in taking violence against them.

In the cases where players aren't rewarded for such actions, they are rarely, if ever, punished by the game for doing so.

Even if a game is set in an age in which patriarchal norms made life terrible for women, it's not acceptable to glamorize or glorify it, nor is it acceptable to reward a player for participating in it.

 

[Orayn]

If talk around "SJWs" discussing popular culture has shown me anything, it's that a lot of people can't separate criticism of a thing from a personal attack for liking that thing. Further, a lot of people can't separate criticism of a thing from active censorship of that thing.

Gotta grease up that Slippery Slope 'n Slide.

Saying you have problems some aspect of a thing -> (???) -> CALL FOR CENSORSHIP -> Campaigning for enforced removal of that thing

 

[GorillaJu]

He literally told her to, seemingly with the assumption that she would be too afraid to publicize such a scathing rebuttal that proves what a liar she is.



I think the knee-jerk reactions prove that a lot of gamers are as uncomfortable with introspection or further consideration as the people writing the scripts. (Apparently much more so, since the visible responses from developers has been thoughtful. Guess it demonstrates a difference between impulses to create something better and interest merely in consuming that which is most convenient and digestible.)

I think it's partly that people can be afraid of introspection, but I think it's more that people resent criticism and seek to justify themselves first and foremost.

I think she could do much more to establish context for what she's doing, and people would be more responsive if she did. As it is, it comes across as an attack as she reels off claim after claim, never stopping to elaborate on context or consider differing perspectives. It's like a 30-minute Gish gallop. The natural response for 9 out of 10 people who feel they're being attacked is to justify and defend themselves.

Timely. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504437681527353344

Cherry picking responses on Twitter or from hate mail and then using that as a stick to beat back opposition is a terrible form of defense. It's used to avoid confronting dissenting, not to rebut them.

I mean I think thunderfoot is shameful, but she is just making herself look worse by engaging her opposition this way. Talk to the people who have legitimate criticisms, don't just scrape the bottom of the barrel and show everyone the scum.

 

[Kai Gen]

Not really sure what she's trying to accomplish by posting that. Trying to say something about her detractors? I know that there's completely vile, barely human scum that disagree with her. I hope she things that the existence of complete nut bags says anything whatsoever about people who disagree with or criticize her. Are we supposed to feel particularly sorry for her? For women in general? Not to defend a message like that, but I feel really off about her motivations for posting it...

I think is actually does her more harm than good regardless of her motivation. Giving the people who post this kind of hate a large platform to be heard only encourages more harassment in the long run and will only make the harassment more vile.

Tim Schafer is posting these things as well now and I am afraid he is only opening the door for these people.

 

[Brakke]

thx u guys 4 mansplainen the best ways to deal with harrassment. u have as much experience as she does with that, yeah? must've been tough, catching all that vile flack u did.

oh.

 

[Kai Gen]

thx u guys 4 mansplainen the best ways to deal with harrassment. u have as much experience as she does with that, yeah? must've been tough, catching all that vile flack u did.

oh.

Not entirely sure what being a man, or not actively being harassed has to do with this situation of dealing with scummy people online. It very basic psychology that when someone is seeking attention the last thing you do is give them it. Doesn't really matter if it is positive or negative for some attention is attention and will only encourage them even more. In the workplace, a school teacher, or a parenting type situation you can address these type of people head on an and deal with it by using a position of power. On the internet dealing with anonymous people those tactics won't work.

Totalbiscuit a few years ago was a prime example of not how to deal with internet trolls, even he will admit it. When you sink down to their level and give them acknowledgement and large platform to be heard it only serves as encouragement.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Not cool.

 

[Karkador]

We always get people in these threads (even this one) claiming that she's not allowing for fair discourse by turning off her YouTube comments. It's an old, tired argument...but people apparently keep thinking it.

Her posting that shitty email is just going to show that there is still going to be an overwhelming amount of vitriol flung her way, and it will poison any chance of her hosting fair discourse.

 

[anaron]

Not cool.

People continue to be shitstains. Fucking assholes.

 

[Aquamarine]

Not cool.

Nothing she has ever done even comes close to warranting such abhorrent behaviour.

I just don't understand the viciousness of the Internet sometimes.

 

[anaron]

 

[ChamplooJones]

Not cool.

Word? Are cats really that mad that someone is "attacking" their beloved hobby?

I don't even...

 

[SaggyMonkey]

Ugh, that hat.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

"Makes misogyny newly appalling"

To be quite frank that's appalling to me. Some better word choice there probably would have been good.

 

[r1chard]

Word? Are cats really that mad that someone is "attacking" their beloved hobby?

I don't even...

For some people a negative comment on a medium they enjoy is a direct judgement of themselves.