you should keep watching, she addresses these points
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New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
- Thread starter Fracas
- Start date
you should keep watching, she addresses these points
It's not cherry picking. It's showing a specific trend within several big name, lauded video games that goes largely unnoticed. I also don't know why people don't just finish the video. Find out if she makes an ultimate point, or answers your questions before coming away from it.
I really don't know where the "cherry picking" thing comes from. When you say that you're going to show examples of this specific thing happening, showing those examples is just "picking" as long as you didn't present them in a misleading way.
It's like... If I wrote a lab report about a specific type of cracking failure in metal samples, it wouldn't just be okay for me to show a lot of examples, it would be expected. Unless used for a specific point of comparison, going into detail about other types of failures or samples not failing at all would be off-topic.
Why not? Sometimes stuff you wrote in the past is so bad or cringeworthy, it is embarrassing.
Those things are not mutually exclusive. The Bioshock 2 creators were doing all of that, and there's nothing wrong with that. They look back at what they wrote, said "oh wow what were we thinking, okay, we'll do better next time". Cool, good for them?
I don't really get the sense that any of developers are experiencing true personal growth here. It seems to me it's more along the lines of "I'm sorry I made a game with sexist elements. I won't do it again (although how they proposing doing this is never discussed.)"
They're being shamed. Not much better.
They're explicitly not being shamed. The video is about the texts, not the developers. If people feel ashamed for having created a bad thing, well... that's appropriate, don't you think?
Ok, so I just couldn'twatchreaditthis more than10 minutesone sentence because there is something in this kind of texts that bothers me.
...
I didn't watch the first video because I didn't care
i'm 7min in this one and it kinda feels like propaganda to me.
It's a bunch of cherrypicked moments in video games showed one after the other... isn't that the exact definition of demagogy?
i'm not against feminism or anything, i'm just confused to why this thing gets so much attention, this is garbage
Maybe you should examine why you "feel" it's propaganda.
In what way are these examples cherrypicking and not a fairly representative sample? Watch_doggers was a huge commercial hit, Red Dead a huge critical and respectable commercial hit.
EdibleKnife
Member
because the first 12 min of propaganda are just too long and too much for me to care till the end I guess
Why exactly do you think it smacks so much of propaganda? It's not as though these moments don't exist in video games. She's not making these scenes from scratch. They were all made in game studios and put out and all share the eerily similar premise of using women as submissive victims in order to urge a reaction from the player.
I don't really get the sense that any of developers are experiencing true personal growth here. It seems to me it's more along the lines of "I'm sorry I made a game with sexist elements. I won't do it again (although how they proposing doing this is never discussed.)"
To start, do you honestly know what's going in in each of the developer's minds? Do you honestly think an entire diatribe about their personal growth would end up on Twitter? Isn't it also possible that they've already made it through their experience of growth and yet still are willing to look back and simply acknowledge their past mistakes?
I don't really get the sense that any of developers are experiencing true personal growth here. It seems to me it's more along the lines of "I'm sorry I made a game with sexist elements. I won't do it again (although how they proposing doing this is never discussed.)"
I suspect you're projecting.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Exactly. Sarkeesian isn't saying "yo devs, you should be ashamed of yourselves!".They're explicitly not being shamed. The video is about the texts, not the developers. If people feel ashamed for having created a bad thing, well... that's appropriate, don't you think?
Maybe you should examine why you "feel" it's propaganda.
In what way are these examples cherrypicking and not a fairly representative sample? Watch_doggers was a huge commercial hit, Red Dead a huge critical and respectable commercial hit.
are you implying that I am against women because I questionned her method? i'll leave you guys to your circlejerk
They're explicitly not being shamed. The video is about the texts, not the developers. If people feel ashamed for having created a bad thing, well... that's appropriate, don't you think?.
No, because they are so many "bad" things out there, if developers try to avoid all offensive imagery of any oppressed group, all we'll be left with is politically correct, shallow games from developers who are to afraid of offending someone to attempt to write a compelling story.
I suspect you're projecting.
I'll ask my shrink.
EdibleKnife
Member
are you implying that I am against women because I questionned her method? i'll leave you guys to your circlejerk
Woah what? When did anyone suggest that at all?
No, because they are so many "bad" things out there, if developers try to avoid all offensive imagery of any oppressed group, all we'll be left with is politically correct, shallow games from developers who are to afraid of offending someone to attempt to write a compelling story.
If you just show offensive imagery without making a point in something that claims to want to have meaning but in reality just does it for shock value, you indeed to reexamine why you're using such imagery. A lot of the examples within the video simply have women in danger or being killed as even less than a plot point, let alone something meaningful, but rather as player motivation to know who the bad guys are when their are more nuanced, interesting and compelling ways to bring that across to the player. The scenes of women dying or in danger of harm are solely for the building of atmosphere and rarely affect or change the player character(s) or even NPCs. They are surface level inclusions without an ounce of depth.
Yep. Put that asshole under the jail
Quick, let's escalate discussion by making sarcastic death threats in response to death threats.
You could try debating in good faith. Nobody said you were against women.are you implying that I am against women because I questionned her method? i'll leave you guys to your circlejerk
If you just show offensive imagery without making a point in something that claims to want to have meaning but in reality just does it for shock value, you indeed to reexamine why you're using such imagery. A lot of the examples within the video simply have women in danger or being killed as even less than a plot point, let alone something meaningful, but rather as player motivation to know who the bad guys are when their are more nuanced, interesting and compelling ways to bring that across to the player. The scenes of women dying or in danger of harm are solely for the building of atmosphere and rarely affect or change the player character(s) or even NPCs. They are surface level inclusions without an ounce of depth.
Not to mention all it normally does is highlight that your plot sucks. I'm glad this shit is limited to games I typically dont play. I dont understand how people think the way games represent sexual issues is in anyway close to normal, and it isnt even done as well as movie form, much less book. I dont even understand why you need shock value in your game, unless you are just admiting your plot is so flimsy that you need something to motivate you into doing what you are doing(why hello thar sex trafficking in Watchdogs).
Edit: This isnt me saying shock value/offensiveness has no place in games, this is me saying have a good fucking plot, before worrying about shock value, it's armature and childish, imo.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
As opposed to the politically incorrect, shallow games from developers too lazy and unoriginal to come up with compelling stories? Yeah, no, that's a blatant slippery slope fallacy if I've ever seen one.No, because they are so many "bad" things out there, if developers try to avoid all offensive imagery of any oppressed group, all we'll be left with is politically correct, shallow games from developers who are to afraid of offending someone to attempt to write a compelling story.
It's funny how people suggest that games stories will suffer from "PCness", when in fact, Neil Druckmann has repeatedly said that Anita's video has inspired him to make his story better. Has anyone complained that The Last of Us's story is a) bad and shallow or b) too PC?
God forbid game writers decide to write women as people instead of empty sexualized vessels...
are you implying that I am against women because I questionned her method? i'll leave you guys to your circlejerk
Seeing that video and calling it "propaganda" is a weird response. I'm asking you to share why you think it's propaganda, what put you on the defensive about it? You think it's cherry-picking, but I personally don't see how the examples she picked aren't representative.
I think you misread my reply, my second paragraph was an invitation to do the first so we can discuss.
No, because they are so many "bad" things out there, if developers try to avoid all offensive imagery of any oppressed group, all we'll be left with is politically correct, shallow games from developers who are to afraid of offending someone to attempt to write a compelling story.
Yes what a shame it would be if all our games were super shallow and didn't have compelling stories.
Oh.
Woah what? When did anyone suggest that at all?
If you just show offensive imagery without making a point in something that claims to want to have meaning but in reality just does it for shock value, you indeed to reexamine why you're using such imagery. A lot of the examples within the video simply have women in danger or being killed as even less than a plot point, let alone something meaningful, but rather as player motivation to know who the bad guys are when their are more nuanced, interesting and compelling ways to bring that across to the player.
Video games are by and large a graphic medium. As such, shock imagery is often the quickest way to convey a point or a setting. Now maybe some artists/writers handle it better (in someone's opinion) than others, but both have the right to try and build their story world as they see fit.
figadapaura
Member
WARNING NSFW & trigger warning:
Sarkeesian tweeted the screencap of one of the people sending threats with her address in it
What a detestably twisted piece of shit.
Video games are by and large a graphic medium. As such, shock imagery is often the quickest way to convey a point or a setting. Now maybe some artists/writers handle it better (in someone's opinion) than others, but both have the right to try and build their story world as they see fit.
Sure, but the shock imagery is plot porn to hide the fact that your story is crap. That alone should be enough to stop defending crappy plot points. Should they have the right to make what they want? Sure, but I also have a right to call out a shit book/movie/ect. Now obviously people are fine to think the plot as is, are fine but I'd say their standards are pretty damn low.
WARNING NSFW & trigger warning:
Sarkeesian tweeted the screencap of one of the people sending threats with her address in it
Man what the fuck.
Getting real tired of media personalities saying the 'gaming community' is a garbage dump because a small psychotic mob is doing the same old shit.
This is happening way too many times though
theshape31
Member
Can't someone with the know-how and authority find out this person's IP and swoop in and shackle that psychopath up? This is someone who needs to spend the rest of his days in solitary confinement and have his male parts removed. Seriously.WARNING NSFW & trigger warning:
Sarkeesian tweeted the screencap of one of the people sending threats with her address in it
shacklesmcgee
Member
This is happening way too many times though
Totally agree, in the past week we've had calls for the heads of Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, and to a lesser extant, Sam Maggs (check the CityNews thread) all for being women.
The gaming industry most definitely has a problem.
Getting real tired of media personalities saying the 'gaming community' is a garbage dump because a small psychotic mob is doing the same old shit.
For one, it's behavior within and among the people taking part in that community, and two, most of the actual criticism going on is about the content of the games, not lamenting the community. I don't like that implication any more than you do when I see it, but I see that concern take the form of a boogeyman of sorts that casts an unfair shadow over even the healthy criticism going on.
This is happening way too many times though
I guess if you dont compare it to other forms of entertainment(or politics), sure. but comparatively? I'd have to disagree quite a bit. For every story on gaming you can find for this, I probably could find a laundry list of peoples lives being threatened. Then with politics, I'm actually afraid to go down that rabit hole, and I dont think we need to do more then mention the insane shit you see from Hollywood fanatics.
I guess if you dont compare it to other forms of entertainment(or politics), sure. but comparatively? I'd have to disagree quite a bit. For every story on gaming you can find for this, I probably could find a laundry list of peoples lives being threatened. Then with politics, I'm actually afraid to go down that rabit hole, and I dont think we need to do more then mention the insane shit you see from Hollywood fanatics.
What exactly is your point in bringing that to my attention?
TatteredHat
Member
Totally agree, in the past week we've had calls for the heads of Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, and to a lesser extant, Sam Maggs (check the CityNews thread) all for being women.
The gaming industry most definitely has a problem.
There's too little accountability on the internet, I imagine that's the biggest cause this form of harrassment.
Said small psychotic mob is sending death threats and hacking companies to release personal financial info. They're kinda hard to ignore. Don't want to be lumped in with them? Condemn them as the shit-eating scum they are.Getting real tired of media personalities saying the 'gaming community' is a garbage dump because a small psychotic mob is doing the same old shit.
This is happening way too many times though
It absolutely happens too much (once is too much). But it happens too much in society in general. We don't lump everyone that watches movies as being fucked up because these same assholes tweet garbage at almost every famous female.
I'm just saying, the problem is bad enough on it's own. Labeling the entire community with this garbage makes the toxic minority think they're a majority
What exactly is your point in bringing that to my attention?
I thought you were implying that it is more of an issue in the game industry. If that isnt what you meant, sorry. I was trying to make the point the issue is the internet, not really a specific community.
What a detestably twisted piece of shit.
...Wow, I didn't see this messege yet, so I thought it was just a random internet threat, but this is a whole different level, i'm glad she contacted the authorities about this.
This is someone who needs to spend the rest of his days in solitary confinement and have his male parts removed. Seriously.
Yep. Put that asshole under the jail
I really, really hope the irony isn't lost here. These reactions are out of line, even if I agree with the sentiment about the offending harassment.
For one, it's behavior within and among the people taking part in that community, and two, most of the actual criticism going on is about the content of the games, not lamenting the community. I don't like that implication any more than you do when I see it, but I see that concern take the form of a boogeyman of sorts that casts an unfair shadow over even the healthy criticism going on.
I think my comment was misunderstood. I wasn't criticizing Anita's work (I like it). I'm criticizing that I'm being lumped in with the vile pieces of shit that are tweeting this garbage at her.
Said small psychotic mob is sending death threats and hacking companies to release personal financial info. They're kinda hard to ignore. Don't want to be lumped in with them? Condemn them as the shit-eating scum they are.
Holy shit is that true?
Her?
Insane. She's releasing commentary on video games... I just don't get it. Pathetic isn't even the word.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
But... you're not being lumped. I am part of the gaming community too, and I don't feel offended by those who say the community is toxic.I think my comment was misunderstood. I wasn't criticizing Anita's work (I like it). I'm criticizing that I'm being lumped in with the vile pieces of shit that are tweeting this garbage at her.
Said small psychotic mob is sending death threats and hacking companies to release personal financial info. They're kinda hard to ignore. Don't want to be lumped in with them? Condemn them as the shit-eating scum they are.
Who is saying to ignore them? You said it yourself, it's a small psychotic mob. It certainly needs to be addressed and I hope justice finds these sick bastards.
I thought you were implying that it is more of an issue in the game industry. If that isnt what you meant, sorry. I was trying to make the point the issue is the internet, not really a specific community.
nope wasn't implying this problem is unique to the video game community. It is a problem however and we do need to discuss it in relation to our community.
No, I'm talking about Polytron's recent doxxing. To my knowledge nobody's leaked Sarkeesian's personal financial info, though said crowd has probably tried.Holy shit is that true?
Her?
Insane. She's releasing commentary on video games... I just don't get it. Pathetic isn't even the word.
But... you're not being lumped. I am part of the gaming community too, and I don't feel offended by those who say the community is toxic.
That's fair.
I really, really hope the irony isn't lost here. These reactions are out of line, even if I agree with the sentiment about the offending harassment.
Excellent point. I hope the authorities are able to catch the people responsible and hold them accountable.
Getting real tired of media personalities saying the 'gaming community' is a garbage dump because a small psychotic mob is doing the same old shit.
This bothers me quite a bit as well; regardless of the situation, saying gamers are "subhuman vermin" or calling anyone who disagrees with Anita a "neckbread MRA virgin straight white male" isn't going to further your cause one bit, it will only make people defensive and less likely to take you seriously. Seeing people who are influential in the gaming culture spread this kind of hate is disheartening.
theshape31
Member
First of all, that's not irony. Second of all, I've dealt with several men who have done things like this and there is no coming back to normal from there. They are a constant threat to women and society at large. And if my thoughts seem like an overreaction to you, then you've never seen into the eyes of one of those people.I really, really hope the irony isn't lost here. These reactions are out of line, even if I agree with the sentiment about the offending harassment.
First of all, that's not irony. Second of all, I've dealt with several men who have done things like this and there is no coming back to normal from there. They are a constant threat to women and society at large. And if my thoughts seem like an overreaction to you, then you've never seen into the eyes of one of those people.
Are you sure it's a man and not some twelve year old punk looking to troll a prominent feminist?
nope wasn't implying this problem is unique to the video game community. It is a problem however and we do need to discuss it in relation to our community.
I agree, but then it's a chicken or egg thing. Can you fix it in your community before fixing it on the internet as a whole? I think addressing it in relation to your community is, largely, going to the same(I would think). It would be nice if different communities would come together to be create safe havens for people(since I think it works better then calling out the crazies) in general. But even that is easy to say, because the biggest issue, I think, is a lack of consequence from throw out out inane crap on the internet that is threatening, is the major problem.
First of all, that's not irony. Second of all, I've dealt with several men who have done things like this and there is no coming back to normal from there. They are a constant threat to women and society at large. And if my thoughts seem like an overreaction to you, then you've never seen into the eyes of one of those people.
We'll have to disagree that perhaps rallying for permanent isolation and castration isn't the best response to harassment and threats. I did give you too much credit assuming it wasn't what you actually wanted, so in that way, yes, it wasn't ironic.
theshape31
Member
12-year-olds don't understand what those kinds of threats mean. They are not mentally capable of creating such verbiage. As well as dealing with extreme sociopaths, I've also worked with children of that age for a number of years.Are you sure it's a man and not some twelve year old punk looking to troll a prominent feminist?
EdibleKnife
Member
Video games are by and large a graphic medium. As such, shock imagery is often the quickest way to convey a point or a setting. Now maybe some artists/writers handle it better (in someone's opinion) than others, but both have the right to try and build their story world as they see fit.
I agree that you should write what you want in terms of story. The major issue though is that in gaming it's done lazily more often than not. I've seen film, tv and read books that have had something shocking happen without it coming across the same way and that is because the authors in those works rarely used those scenes as decoration. It was was a well deserved ramp up instead of just a stamp. The scenes included characters that the viewer had investment in and the results from the scenes had ramifications beyond "ok now you know who the bad guy is, go kill" or "now you know this city is so totally seedy dude". Within a majority of the video games I've ever played, when a woman gets killed it might as well just be the bad guy walking up, reaching into a woman 12-pack and picking out one to slice their throat. For me it's beyond lazy and it's simply boring. Yet it happens so damn often.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I know it's easier to dismiss these threats as being "just a kid trolling", but no, the facts generally don't line up with that. I've seen grown men (30+, sometimes 40+) behave in appallingly childish ways. It would not be remotely shocking to me if this asshole is an adult.Are you sure it's a man and not some twelve year old punk looking to troll a prominent feminist?
That's the thing, you can't tell. There are some legitimately scary sociopaths online who see ruining someone's life over a video as a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Whether they dox you or just post your address with a wink, they are a real threat and have to be taken seriously even as they mingle with the twelve year old 4chan trolls. This stopped being a silly game a long time ago.Are you sure it's a man and not some twelve year old punk looking to troll a prominent feminist?
Just ask Phil Fish.
Quick, let's escalate discussion by making sarcastic death threats in response to death threats.
"Under the jail" is not a death threat.