Most of that is true, but that's an utterly different thing from what most would mean by mental health. You're talking about anti-social patterns in behavior. That was my point. I made an earlier post describing similar ideas to what you're saying here. Citing a correlative pattern as though it were a causative one is simply dangerous.
Tropes vs Women author Sarkeesian vacates home following online threats
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Most of that is true, but that's an utterly different thing from what most would mean by mental health. You're talking about anti-social patterns in behavior. That was my point. I made an earlier post describing similar ideas to what you're saying here. Citing a correlative pattern as though it were a causative one is simply dangerous.
Byron Bluth
Banned
Stuff like this makes me more afraid of Internet Regulation.
Noisepurge
Member
And this is why some services will start to reinforce that real name policy and non-anonymity in the net :/ cant be throwing threats around if everyones real names and addresses are known.
I would highly doubt it.
People still engage in similar kinds of vile behavior on Facebook, even with their real names there for everyone to see. It's pretty wild, honestly.
I'll try as a human being now, then:
About the #NotAllMen:
"It’s a sharp, damning satire of a familiar kind of bad-faith argument, the one where a male interlocutor redirects a discussion about sexism, misogyny, rape culture, or women’s rights to instead be about how none of that is his fault. And it struck a nerve."
So, basically, by asking "Is this representative?" or saying "Not all tech industry is like that" (#NotAllMen are sexist) you are only shifting the discussion (which is about a woman) towards another subject and evading the answers or the consequences that discussion can bring. It is not encouraging the discussion, it is only changing the focus from the things that matter, even though it may have had sincere intentions of being a useful argument. We are talking about how a woman has been receiving death threats because she voiced her opinion about the industry and not trying to determine who is and who isn't sexist within that industry. In short, it portrays the oppressor as being a victim of misjudgement.
Bonus:
How old are you?
White-Knight is a put-down term I've been familiar with for ages (I'm 36), but Social Justice Warrior is something new that I only (personally) started hearing over the last year or so.
We need to take back White Knight, Agrias would want it that way
I didn't catch the address part. My mistake.
How could someone obtain that info anyway?
The video you posted was awesome, yet you respond to the topic in a way I dont think that the youtuber would have wanted, since she made it clear the majority of her comments are good, but the bad ones make it harder, because they are more personal(and since there are so few women doing what she does the motivations to keep going is less)... Anywho
This article does a good job at explaining that it isnt simply, specifically, an anti-women atmosphere(though that exists), but more of a no women atmosphere. But that it is definitely harder for a woman, regardless of the reasons.
scoobidoo112
Member
Again, my point was that perhaps one of the things at play here is that anyone that opens his or her mouth on the internet can / will face harassment. I don't think it is fair to take an anonymous twitter troll and use that as an example of "harassment of women IN the tech industry", instead I think it is an example of the consequences of online anonymity.
Besides, you said:
And my response was that I never said that we should just "deal with it" and that I was just asking questions. But don't bother addressing that...
CambriaRising
Member
Twitter and Facebook largely disprove this idea. Plenty of people use their real name while saying this stuff. As far as addresses? The last thing anyone needs is a easier way to find that information out about people they disagree with. This issue in particular is largely made worse because people exposed her address on the internet.
DrROBschiz
Member
Exactly though I think its much easier to point authorities in the right direction at least
I think you see less criminal death threat material on there and more just vile insults
Average human behavior isn't rational. Phobias (usually not considered mental disorders) are everywhere and are irrational. Confirmation bias exists everywhere and is not rational.
And it's not just legitimate authority. Your average white southerner 300 years ago believed slavery was moral and black people were subhuman. They believe this because other people they frequently interacted with believed this.
I feel societies has issues with the way we deal with mental health. I also think immediately assuming mental health disorders are responsible for the threats is not sensible, nor does it address the issues that made people feel the threats were acceptable.
This article is excellent.
No, not really. Pretty much any label can be used in a negative light when a pattern emerges. For instance, I now consider Gamer to be a bad word and refuse to be identified as such.
There should only be one label in this world that matters.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I think you're viewing the correlational link he was making backwards (whether or not you agree with it) I don't think he was implying that all people with mental issues are sending death threats, but that almost all the people sending death threats have mental issues. And to at least some extent, I would have to agree. The only people who would be so inflamed, so angered and so obsessed as to issue death threats against Anita have to have some kind of mental imbalance.
scoobidoo112
Member
Seriously? I politely ask a question and all of a sudden I am 'offended'?
Fuck it, I won't ask questions then. Bye.
Given that Joss Wheedon, Tim Schafer, CliffyB, and a host of other creatives have said that all developers should watch them, I'd say yes.
Messofanego
Banned
That was a great and enlightening video. Thanks.
The Librarian
Banned
That's a really great article.
Not that I'm trying to put you down, but why exactly did you get physically ill over this, for hours?
Aaronrules380
Member
To an extent yes, but it's more a combination of that and actual mental illness. The people doing stuff like this would probably do similar things in any situation, these just give them an outlet where it's somewhat easier to get away with it (or justify it in their minds). I think it's wrong to think that most of the sexist douchebags would take it that far, or approve of this. Case in point, the fact that they're trying to say she's overplaying it, or fabricated the scenario entirely, rather than outright agreeing with the perpetrator. Most of them know that the perpetrator and what they did is vile and disgusting. But rather than admit that it's a sign that they were in the wrong, they try to rationalize and downplay the situation so as to convince themselves that they aren't at fault
DoktorEvil
Banned
I know Tim Schafer refers to it quite a bit, especially with that whole Jontron-Schafer Twitter spat.
But I haven't heard from guys like Kojima, Miyamoto, Levine, Cliffy B, Denis Dyack, et al.
I'd like to know how they feel about her and whether that has made any real impact.
Because the women who do great work in the field, like Jade Raymond or Amy Hennig, have the recognition to impact the industry.
That's cool to know. I'm glad her message is getting to the people who have clout.
Have any EPs or Producers step up to recognize her work?
But she also mentions the fact that even though the majority of the comment she receives are supportive, the nastiness, as she said herself, of the sexist and misogynist comments may put other women interested in being part of such endeavours off. It is still a problem.
Eh, I'd say it's less then twitter or a random forum. Also, with facebook your ability to surround yourself with like minded people, through friends, is a different atmosphere if you were on a forum with your real name, without all your personal friends backing your train of thought.
striferser
Huge Nickleback Fan
We got The Last of Us wonderful characterization, so yeah Druckman credit her for giving him some idea on how to make meaningful female character
No, not really. Pretty much any label can be used in a negative light when a pattern emerges. For instance, I now consider Gamer to be a bad word and refuse to be identified as such.
There should only be one label in this world that matters.
How you just gonna chop off my second sentence that basically said exactly what your post did? Labels are important. Words are labels. Labels mean something, and are important to discussion. Words don't mean exactly the same thing to every single person, similar to how ideas don't mean the same to every single person. That's why we have tangents such as this in every thread where both sides pick their favorite dictionary definition and argue around that instead of the core topic. This juncture is where context comes in to play.
Aaronrules380
Member
Oh of course. There are a shit ton of factors involved in these things and the mental health of the perpetrator is just one factor that lead to such an extreme situation.
Thank you for stating that.
I am a loving son and husband and I'd like to think I'm a nurturing father to my little girl. Blanket statements like the one you responded to are quite offensive and hurtful to me, no matter how innocuous they may seem.
I really don't agree with Anita's approach to the issues she studies/talks about and find it heavy handed, but no one should have to live in fear for their safety simply for having an opinion.
This whole thing is ludicrous and out-of-control.
riskVSreward
Member
No one deserves threats for making videos, but she is constantly going out of her way to misrepresent games to appear more sexist than they actually are and all of you are just eating up her narrative. I would be really glad if I never had to hear about her or her victim complex ever again.
charlequin
Banned
You have your causality backwards on that one. The "proof" of hostility towards women in the tech and gaming communities is years of observation of these communities and their growing hostility towards women; the harassment of Anita is just easier to explain once you know about that ongoing hostility.
"I'm not saying people with mental illness are to blame for harassment, I'm just saying people who harass are all mentally ill!"
This is not a good argument. Angry and violent internet harassment is not symptomatic of an identified mental illness. It is a result of being a sadistic, narcissistic asshole, but that's not a mental illness unless we use a tautological definition like "anyone who does stuff we don't like is mentally ill."
Messofanego
Banned
Just one example from the latest episode, I posted this before. Bioshock 2's developers (Jordan Thomas, JP LeBreton, Ryan Mattson, David Pittman, Steve Gaynor) who reflected on the brothels that Anita found objectionable among other things:
https://twitter.com/nullspeak/status/504045057507217408
https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/430896253652582400
https://twitter.com/fullbright/status/504656148385890304
You do? That's not what I remember, nor what history as a whole remembers lol.
Remember how wars are fought or began? It's all about people disagreeing with each other. Whether it's disagreement about a person(s) religion, sex, way of life, or race. We can only hope to learn from history to make the best future.
....so far that hasn't happened yet.
Captain Tuttle
Member
These fucking cowards are to stupid to understand that this only proves her point and that she'll come out of this stronger.
I wish her the best
I wish her the best
I'm not sure how true this is.
Yes, people's attitudes and their expressions of their attitudes are very much influenced by what they perceive of societal values, etc. And it doesn't seem to be the case that the internet is worse than anywhere else due to anonymity or anything like that, although it might add social distance that makes it easier for people to be jerks. But one thing the internet is really good at is letting people build echo chambers, and a side effect of this is that people come totally unmoored from actual culture in favor of what culture looks like from within their echo chamber.
Normal people can clearly go well beyond sending threatening messages. When it's perceived as a normal sort of thing to do, they can go around killing people; there doesn't seem to be a limit to how far "normal" can go, given the right cultural context.
Today we have much more power to construct the culture we perceive than people used to have. A lot of ink has been spilled on how this helps drive political polarization, for example. When people don't talk about some issue offline, and only ever talk about it online in groups which self-select for a particular opinion on the issue, they start to believe that their insular group's opinion is actually a mainstream one, and this can normalize a lot of behavior that most of society would regard as way over the line.
how does it feel to be so enlightened
How sexist are games, actually?
Continue. If we were like animals, what kind of animals would we be?
Just one example from the latest episode, I posted this before. Bioshock 2's developers (Jordan Thomas, JP LeBreton, Ryan Mattson, David Pittman, Steve Gaynor) who reflected on the brothels that Anita found objectionable among other things:
https://twitter.com/nullspeak/status/504045057507217408
https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/430896253652582400
https://twitter.com/fullbright/status/504656148385890304
This makes me happy!
Sure, but I dont see how you trying to make the subjective argument that everyone who uses "not everyone" type arguments are doing a disservice and what not. If you would have left the snark out, I'd imagine your post would have come across better, and less push-back would mean more people listening to your message.
Personally, I think the "putting people in their place" mindset(specifically on the internet) does more harm to a discussion(poisonous almost), then actually just addressing the points. And I realize I'm being a bit hypocritical here, since I'm practically doing the same thing, but I'm honestly not meaning to in the sense of trying to force a perception of you. I just think that sometimes good points get lost in delivery and it doesn't serve anyone.
Eh, I can relate. People have been saying it's been a bad week for video games. It hasn't been a bad week for games, it's been a bad week everywhere, and honestly the overwhelming lack of any sort of optimism or positivity ANYWHERE is enough to effect you on some level.
It doesn't help when after you finish getting caught up on Ferguson and Chicago and Staten Island and Texas and ISIS and you just want to talk about the game you had a good time playing the night before, you come to GAF and the top story is that segments of people chased a woman who said something they didn't like out of her house. It's exhausting and there's no real meaningful change of behavior on the horizon.
It sucks. It makes people feel sick. It makes me feel angry. And it makes me feel sad that there's no actual meaningful solution outside of talking about it and denouncing these people's behavior and, quite frankly, stating the fucking obvious.
We need...a hero!
He's gotta be strong, he's gotta be fast, and he's got to be fresh from the fight...
Really awesome. Thank you for sharing this.
Aaronrules380
Member
Oh this is true of course, I'm just not sure it applies as such in this specific situation. As I said, this guy is clearly super extreme even amongst those groups because otherwise we'd get a lot more people outright supporting and even praising him, rather than trying to deflect the issue by suggesting she fabricated the experience or is overplaying it.
Just one example from the latest episode, I posted this before. Bioshock 2's developers (Jordan Thomas, JP LeBreton, Ryan Mattson, David Pittman, Steve Gaynor) who reflected on the brothels that Anita found objectionable among other things:
https://twitter.com/nullspeak/status/504045057507217408
https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/430896253652582400
https://twitter.com/fullbright/status/504656148385890304
Hmm. Well maybe there is something to all this.
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