Insane is someone who thinks the writer of TLOU is lying about how Anita educated him, because he's obviously "too intelligent" for that.
Tropes vs Women author Sarkeesian vacates home following online threats
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Insane is someone who thinks the writer of TLOU is lying about how Anita educated him, because he's obviously "too intelligent" for that.
There's so many
Can you imagine the outrage if there was a game that required you to rape a guy? I can't imagine anyone defending that with all the 'artistic vision! Censorship!' shit.
Any game were you have to rape either man or women should be banned. It is not about whether some people find one worse then the other. Rape or anything like it should never be in a game. It is not defendable at all.
Freeman
Banned
Thankfully as of recent I don't fall in that category anymore. To think insanity was such a simple thing to overcome.
njean777
Member
I am sure you are, but you are not even arguing with them. Instead you are on a different forum projecting ad hominem attacks about people on another forum. You are not accomplishing anything.
Censoring art is not the way to go. If you don't think games are art then I can see your argument, but if you do then you are asking them to ban something just because you do not want to explore the problem.
I take it you weren't here for the controversial Hotline Miami 2 scene? A lot of people wanted it to stay in there and complained about censorship.
Edit: ∧∧∧∧∧∧∧ LOL Case in point
Fbh
Member
It's hard for me to understand stuff like this.
I mean, I don't really like her videos and I don't agree with many of the things she says.
But yeah, just don't watch her videos or simply come to terms with the fact that you don't agree with what she says.
But sending serious threats, really?.
There really are some people with serious issues out there
I mean, I don't really like her videos and I don't agree with many of the things she says.
But yeah, just don't watch her videos or simply come to terms with the fact that you don't agree with what she says.
But sending serious threats, really?.
There really are some people with serious issues out there
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I just realized that I've been meaning to do this and I haven't yet, so nows as good a time as any:
I've been critical of Sarkesian's videos up until this point because, while I agree with most of what she's getting at, I've found her analysis shallow and her examples sometimes decontextualized in ways I didn't agree with. It seemed like they sometimes struggled to transcend beyond "sexism is bad, mmkay?"
But her latest video, Women as Background Decoration Pt 2, is by far the best video of her series so far. It feels much more, hm, focused. If you've had similar reservations about her stuff so far I really recommend you check this one out, it has me very interested in how the rest of the series is going to develop.
I've been critical of Sarkesian's videos up until this point because, while I agree with most of what she's getting at, I've found her analysis shallow and her examples sometimes decontextualized in ways I didn't agree with. It seemed like they sometimes struggled to transcend beyond "sexism is bad, mmkay?"
But her latest video, Women as Background Decoration Pt 2, is by far the best video of her series so far. It feels much more, hm, focused. If you've had similar reservations about her stuff so far I really recommend you check this one out, it has me very interested in how the rest of the series is going to develop.
A lot of people get a slippery slope panic over anything that remotely resembles their idea of censorship.
Even criticism makes them think of dreaded censorship a lot of the time.
Agreed.
I've always appreciated the role she serves, but was never particularly wowed by her stuff until the latest episode. It's really effective.
plagiarize
Banned
That graph earlier in the thread about where we are, where we want to be, where we should be, etc, was so on the nose.
I am completely against censorship *BECAUSE* freedom of speech takes care of most of that. Want to make a game with rape in it? Knock yourself out, but be prepared for a huge outcry, and be prepared for no store wanting to stock it.
Realising your writing has an effect you didn't intend, and changing it as a result is not self censorship, it's making sure your writing has the effect you intended.
Realising that something you thought was harmless is harmful, and stopping it as a result is improving your work, not pandering. not watering it down.
Criminal threats (which these very clearly were) are a VERY different ball game, and are not protected speech in any way shape or form. You will struggle to find anyone on neogaf who is as absolutist about freedom of speech as myself... but criticism is one of the only reasons that works.
Letting bigots publically out themselves by giving them a platform to spurt their bigotry is one of the reasons that works.
Slippery slope arguments are bullshit.
Different/another forum? The people he called mouthbreathers were posting on GAF.
I'll be happy to insult some boards though if you want.
If I wasn't on mobile I'd link you to the Criminal Girls thread where people were doing exactly that
I'll pass thanx, I tend to stay away from threads talking about stuff like that. I did stumble on a thread talking about a anime game once about girls that looked underage. I didn't know what the game was about and wish I had before I had gone into that thread. I felt disgusted.
Sorry, but no. First Amendment is absolutely worth protecting. If you're going to say we have the freedom of speech, it has to work for all speech. Please don't use examples like yelling fire in a theater because the stipulations to that are clear.
Good thing the ESRB isn't the government then.
So free speech now includes thinking rape is ok?
The ESRB can't ban a game....
Yes. Absolutely. People should not be imprisoned for things they think. Thought crimes are not things any government should enforce.
an AO rating might as well be a ban.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Why does anonymity on the internet seem to cause so many people to act so cruelly and horribly?
I often ask why people can be so mean and awful on the internet. But instead of telling why people would be so awful when they're anonymous, they just say that anonymity makes people mean.
But that doesn't really answer what I meant and what really bothers me. It just seems like there's a sickness in society, that when people aren't responsible for their actions, they do terrible things. I've never wanted to "troll" people or be mean or things like that.
And I don't understand why so many men feel like they're being oppressed or mistreated in a society that to me seems so clear that men are privileged and given opportunities that women aren't. And then lash out at women.
This world can be so sad sometimes. That sometimes I want an escape. I want to live in a cute and cuddly and wonderful world. Where everyone is nice and empathetic and understanding, and people aren't mean or cruel.
I often ask why people can be so mean and awful on the internet. But instead of telling why people would be so awful when they're anonymous, they just say that anonymity makes people mean.
But that doesn't really answer what I meant and what really bothers me. It just seems like there's a sickness in society, that when people aren't responsible for their actions, they do terrible things. I've never wanted to "troll" people or be mean or things like that.
And I don't understand why so many men feel like they're being oppressed or mistreated in a society that to me seems so clear that men are privileged and given opportunities that women aren't. And then lash out at women.
This world can be so sad sometimes. That sometimes I want an escape. I want to live in a cute and cuddly and wonderful world. Where everyone is nice and empathetic and understanding, and people aren't mean or cruel.
Uno Venova
Banned
You mean actual, real life rape? Or a videogame with rape in it?
You know there's a difference between thinking something and saying it out loud right?
Zomba13
Member
Thinking that videogames (and movies, and books, and TV shows, and Plays, and music) should be able to depict rape doesn't mean thinking rape is ok.
Do people think murder is ok because every game under the sun contains murder? No because that's an insane way of looking at things.
plagiarize
Banned
Of course it does. It's all the good. It's all the bad. It's all the discussion of both.
Which side in this though, is trying to stifle speech? Who is trying to change the subject? Who is trying to browbeat people into silence and scare people from coming forwards?
Thanks to people speaking their bigoted ideas freely, we have removed some unsavory elements from neogaf today. Let them out themselves I say. Freedom of speech is good...
but that doesn't make all speech good. some speech is very very bad, and freedom of speech doesn't work if society can't feel that way. not all opinions are as valid. as reasoned. as human.
people are free to spout their hate speech. and the majority of decent people are free to react accordingly to them doing so.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
What the fuck are you two on about?
A nonexistent rape inside a fake virtual world has every right to be there, cause it ain't real.
Beefy specifically said thinking, so I answered that. And yes, saying rape, racism, genocide etc are good is and should be legal. It's the entire point of "I do not believe in what you have to say, but I'll die for your right to say it."
I ment rape in a computer game. But he answered me anyways.
plagiarize
Banned
and to be clear, we are all allowed to think that says terrible things about the people behind that game. that's why freedom of speech works. you get to state your belief, but you are not protected from being judged for it.
njean777
Member
Even so (thought he was talking about V) using insults is not going to accomplish anything. It is easy to insult people, to actually argue and prove why they are wrong is more enlightening and sometimes helps your cause a lot more than just calling them names.
While that may be true that you are allowed to think that, it is a very ignorant way to think. You are judging somebody without ever even knowing who they are.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
yes, totally agree
In my opinion it doesn't especially if you have to press a few buttons to do it( not saying there is a game like that I wouldn't know). But then you have your own opinion.
As sad as it is, she has to know going into making each one of these videos that she's going to get the same shit every time.
It's like an atheist going around the evangelical christian community constantly yelling and yammering about the atrocities of the church and discrepancies in the bible, then crying victim when a couple crazed zealots inevitably threaten to kill them. Of course some nuts are going to threaten you when you "threaten" their way of life. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
It's like an atheist going around the evangelical christian community constantly yelling and yammering about the atrocities of the church and discrepancies in the bible, then crying victim when a couple crazed zealots inevitably threaten to kill them. Of course some nuts are going to threaten you when you "threaten" their way of life. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yes
because when someone "threatens" your way of life by saying "hey, your games aren't very nice to women"
A suitable counter-threat is "i will rape you to death"
I do wonder though, why do I enjoy playing games where I run around killing people, but I wouldn't want to play a game where you rape women. Morally, both are so bad that it is unnecessary to quantify which is worse. At first I thought maybe it's because I'm attacking women in a rape game. But if I played a murdering game where all the enemies happened to be women, I'd still play it. With murdering games, I tend to look past the murder and just see the game mechanics. When I imagine the most perfect gameplay involving raping women, all I think is "I just raped a woman in this game. This game is disgusting". Why don't I have this reaction with murdering in games? Even stuff like the MW2 scene didn't make me feel that disgusted.
It's not even that on twitter tho. I bet over quarter of the abuses don't even know who she is. It just like a weird thing some people do to feel part of a group.
I wonder what kind of mental preparation it takes the everage ladyGAFfer before she enters a thread like this. Not only the horrifying implications of the story, but the idiocy of some of the responses. Really happy there are plenty of guyGAFfers calling people out on their dumbassery.
He really is.
He really is.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Jim Sterling has a great video about this. Basically our culture has a super conflicted relationship with violence and we're able to enjoy it in games primarily because:
-We have enough of an understanding of violence to be sure we wouldn't do the same thing in real life, and the same can't be necessarily said of rape
-Our culture is great at saying "violence is bad" but then providing ways to contextualize why its okay to be violent, like "they're terrorists", "they're shooting at you", etc.
Check it out: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5972-Rape-vs-Murder
It's more like "you should feel guilty for enjoying the games you enjoy."
But in either scenario the threats are unwarranted. I'm just saying it comes with the territory. Richard Dawkins gets death threats constantly. He just deals with it.
Yeah or an uppity black man complaining about racism. What does he expect??
That probably wasn't the best of metaphors to use.
Might it just be that killing in these games has a "purpose", you're defending yourself from an enemy who will try to kill you. Raping someone, can never be justified as any sort of self-defense. It is just sick and twisted depravity.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Not at all...? Have you even watched the first 30 seconds of any of those videos...?
shacklesmcgee
Member
And being sent rape and death threats is an appropriate amount of "heat", that normal people just deal with? smh
Ummm.....? Yes......?
Freeman
Banned
Generally murder is seen as a lesser crime than rape, even for prisoners. Killing people also plays a role in society, if you go to war you are likely to have to kill people, you can kill people in self defense and you can kill people to protect others. In most games you are killing people within that constrain (with a few exceptions, but even in GTA if you just start murdering people the police is going to show up and either kill or arrest you). It's hard to come up with a context where rape would work in a video game, some movies and books can pull it off but even there it's a very delicate subject, its hard to think games will get to the point of being able to deal with such things anytime soon.
I don't know if it is a spoiler but
Ground Zeroes
deals with the subject of rape a little bit
I read one too many pages than I care to admit in this thread.. The defensive nature some of you exhibit only proves this ladies point. This may come across the wrong way, and there were far too many quotes through these pages that just made me realize.... Your parents did a real crappy job of raising you.
I'm actually appalled at the fact that this women had to leave her house and got death threats because she is just stating the obvious.
I'm actually appalled at the fact that this women had to leave her house and got death threats because she is just stating the obvious.
I believe Anita has stated several times that she doesn't believe anything is wrong with liking the games she critiques. Also death threats are one thing, but posting your address and then threatening to murder you is another. Also just because Richard Dawkins can deal with death threats, doesn't mean he should have to or others also should.
Edit: rape is seen as worse than murder, since it is a form of torture
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The problem with rape in games vs rape in movies and films is that games really, 90% of the time and especially if they're meant to represent approximations of the real world (and not whatever reality Kirby lives in) are designed to be indulgent player-insertion fantasies, and yeah there simply is no tasteful way to make an indulgent rape simulation. Period.
It's because we live in a world were parents buy COD's for kids 6 years too young for the Peggi rating and don't communicate with their kids "you don't talk to females like that" or better yet, don't let them play that crap at all.
A major problem in this discussions about Anita Sarkeesian is that most people indeed haven't watched the videos. That is not to say that there is nothing to criticize in them, but most people are still arguing against straw men.
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