Tidus_Great
Banned
Not thrilled about this at all. Xenoblade is one of my top 10 games ever but I'm not going to buy a minor upgraded system to play it.
Discuss: The new 3DS and the emergent "split userbase"... is this a good trend?
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Well, of course. Management is all about strategically allocating a set of limited resources.
You can't just produce more out of thin air. It's always a balancing act. If they can stabilize their cash flow, then they can afford to invest more. So they have to stem that first; they can't afford to take major risk expenditures now, hence this stopgap.
Or downsize.
And we kind of saw some of that today.
That said, a lot of people who are complaining about this huge 'factured market' are vastly overestimating the active userbase that's spending on software of the 3DS now as it is. "millions and millions of 3Ds owners' that currently exist are not exactly buying a lot of software right now. This might be a shot in the arm to at least stem some of the bleeding, and as I mentioned earlier, maintain some revenue till they are ready to launch the new joint platform they are working on.
digoutyoursoul
Member
Sega sort of tried it with the 32x and CD but they were add ons, not complete systems. Both bombed.
Refreshment.01
Member
Well how did the GameBoy, GameBoy Advance and DS eras revisions affected the console side of things?
What happened when Nintendo splitted the market with the GBC and DSi or with the introductions of peripherals like the Expansion Pack or 64DD?
ArcaneFreeze
Member
I wonder if anyone actually believes Nintendo, hell or any business, would be stupid enough to ignore a 45million+ user base due to a slightly upgraded CPU. If anything all I expect is future games to take advantage of the additional inputs on the N3DS while still having perfect functionality on the OG3DS's akin to adding a CCP to the system.
As far as "exclusive" games goes i'd expect more digital releases or VC for GBA and the like like what the DSi rather than full fledged Xenoblade like titles. The original intention of the increased CPU and RAM was to better support the 3DS's increasing online functionality with Miiverse, NNID, eShop, etc. which were pretty much forced onto the 3DS which was never meant to support that kind of workload. I'm assuming they just decided to take this as an opportunity to tap into their handheld userbase to market Xenoblade before Xenoblade Cross comes out.
As far as "exclusive" games goes i'd expect more digital releases or VC for GBA and the like like what the DSi rather than full fledged Xenoblade like titles. The original intention of the increased CPU and RAM was to better support the 3DS's increasing online functionality with Miiverse, NNID, eShop, etc. which were pretty much forced onto the 3DS which was never meant to support that kind of workload. I'm assuming they just decided to take this as an opportunity to tap into their handheld userbase to market Xenoblade before Xenoblade Cross comes out.
thereisnoif
Member
I'm excited because I can finally play Xenoblade.
digoutyoursoul
Member
I see, the way these companies think these days I don't know what to expect anymore. Personally I don't agree with hardware revisions of a platform and then make exclusive games for that revision. All
I'm saying is I hope it never happens for home consoles.
this reminds me a bit of the gbc.
i can't imagine there will be too many games that make exclusive use of the new hardware, to be honest. it would be alienating the many many millions of existing users. but for the games that can benefit from it, those extra features will probably be worth it for developers (otherwise people can just buy the controller add-ons or use dumbed-down controls).
more than anything this kind of reminds of the n64 ram expansion pak, which i'm sure has been brought up by now. there were some games that were only possible on the n64 because of it, and others that received graphical enhancements. not sure about how the controls split is going to work.
i can't imagine there will be too many games that make exclusive use of the new hardware, to be honest. it would be alienating the many many millions of existing users. but for the games that can benefit from it, those extra features will probably be worth it for developers (otherwise people can just buy the controller add-ons or use dumbed-down controls).
more than anything this kind of reminds of the n64 ram expansion pak, which i'm sure has been brought up by now. there were some games that were only possible on the n64 because of it, and others that received graphical enhancements. not sure about how the controls split is going to work.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Don't think Pokemon Yellow was GBC only. Pokemon Crystal, however, was.
Father_Brain
Banned
In case those quotation marks were too subtle, I consider the idea of "saving" Wii U to be completely deluded, and believe that Nintendo's short-term goal should be milking their existing, loyal fanbase for as much cash as possible rather than futilely attempting to expand the audience for their current platforms.
What I'm afraid of is the possibility that development resources that should be going to the unified NintendOS platform (which I'm far from optimistic about, but at least it has a chance) are being used to shore up Nintendo's short-term income, with serious ramifications for the former's early software lineup.
Man, all of this makes me wonder what would've happened if GAF was around when the GB Color came out. I personally don't mind it, Xenoblade on 3DS is pretty cool but I will wait to see how it handles before jumping in to the new system, if a lot of games I want are New 3DS exclusive then I will sell the old one and get it, simple as that. We are used to move on from console to console what's the big deal?
because it's widely considered part of the original game boy line, including nintendo themselves, while gba was the first true successor to that line. the dsi is a similar platform.
Elfforkusu
Member
As long as Nintendo keeps their BC policy intact, I don't think incremental hardware upgrades are bad at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Wait until the "tick" revision instead of the next "tock" revision, then. Problem solved.
Refreshment.01
Member
Anihawk, just look at my posts in the previous page. This is just a paralel to the DSi, it even matches to a potential release date or solid announcement of the successor.
Was trying to search some of my very olds posts about Nintendo needing a 3DS revision and it turns out the situation pretty much matches out what i was suggesting.
The reality is there's no other progression path Nintendo could have take in relation to it's mobile device situation. In fact, i challange anyone to come up with a more logical plan than this.
my perspective on the wii u lineup is that they're actively trying not to spend too much time on it while also trying not to abandon the platform. the same is true of the 3ds. i don't think we'll see too many big name projects for the new 3ds if a port of a (by the time it's out) five year old wii game is any indication.
wii u's lineup:
bayonetta 2 - a game abandoned by the original publisher, picked up and funded by nintendo themselves
devil's third - a game whose original publisher up and died, picked up and funded by nintendo themselves
smash bros. 4 - in the works before the wii u was even released or expected to be a failure
captain toad - spinoff title using super mario 3d world assets and presumably fewer man hours to develop
xenoblade chronicles x - in the works before the wii u was even released or expected to be a failure
hyrule warriors - in the works before the wii u was even released or expected to be a failure
sonic boom - deal with sega in place probably around the time of the wii u's launch or earlier
smt x fe - in the works before the wii u was even released or expected to be a failure
yoshi's wooly world - in the works before the wii u was even released or expected to be a failure
zelda wii - in the works before the wii u was even released or expected to be a failure
fatal frame 5 - in the works before the wii u was even released or expected to be a failure
kirby's rainbow curse - development period unknown.
nes remix 1+2 - retail compilation of wii u download games
mario maker - seemingly low-budget title. development period unknown.
mario party 10 - seemingly mid-budget title. development started after the wii u was known to be a failure
mario vs. donkey kong wii u - low-budget title. development started after the wii u was known to be a failure
splatoon - perhaps high-budget title. development period unknown.
star fox - seemingly high-budget title, with development started after wii u's release
project guard - revived project from n64 era
project robot - revived project from n64 era
after 2015, if we are still seeing big budget games announced and shown off at nintendo directs and e3, i think there's a problem with what you suggest. right now it seems like they're kind of scrapping to have stuff available for at least 2015 on the home console, and most projects probably wouldn't be good to hang onto until the next one if it's going to be a 2017 platform.
regarding the 3ds, i think it's even more obvious they're scrapping for stuff. they're down to ports and remakes, localizing old japanese games like fantasy life, tomodachi life, and bravely default, and letting intelligent system have a go with a new ip. i expect maybe a part 2 to gen vi, majora's mask 3d, and other wii and gamecube games for the new 3ds. maybe another fire emblem as well. i would not expect a major push in terms of software for either of these systems aside from what has already been announced.
airmangataosenai
Member
They're really going to go with "New 3DS" as the official name though? It might limit confusion somewhat but it sounds like a parody and I think it might be prone to a bigger backlash than people are expecting. Either way though, even if a backlash doesn't happen this won't do anything to reverse the downward trend of sales beyond the launch. No way 3DS reaches 10 million sales this fiscal year.
Yeah there's not much else they can do if you consider that the equation contains the separate QoL platform and that their next gen handheld/console will be unified meaning they have to launch simultaneously. So basically Nintendo will fool around with QoL and new 3DS while riding Wii U's cycle out. The only other option they had was to launch a regular 3DS revision.
i agree that it really matches closely with the dsi. strangely i never felt like i needed to upgrade to the dsi, and i never did. the software out for it was never that compelling (although i did buy shantae later). the additions to the new 3ds seem a lot more substantial, which is probably why people are so upset about it as a concept. like there's more that the platform can do the original one could not, beyond making games look better. so when the inevitable exclusive software comes out for it, it will be for more substantial reasons beyond having an online shop available for it to exist on.
Refreshment.01
Member
IS not about reversing the downward trend, this is a bandage to minimize bleeding. The idea is to sell the new model to the existing base and revive some interest in the platform.
This is a more logical and wise decision than for example letting the Wii die withouth moving a finger. There's also the potential to reach new customers by accompanying this new model with a line up of "greatest hits" at reduced prices. Something that could carry the device for 2015.
Like i asked in a previous post, what else would have you done in NIntendo's position? There's just not a more logical step than this.
The DSi like the N3DS had better technical specs like faster CPU's more RAM, SD card slot, Music playback, etc. At the end of the day the highprofile titles for the 3DS architecture will be playable in all platforms, because this is what makes busyness sense.
Also (at the least) will have solid details and a release date for the 3DS succesor 2 years from the N3DS launch. So how the heck can people think there will be a massive amount of N3DS content created and launched in that time lapse? Game development is an slow process.
I know it's because 3ds owners are not buying software, but there's also so little software to buy. Retail third party game announcements for 3ds (to be released in the west) are few and far between.
This is why I can't believe they are doing a stop gap. They are in very serious danger right now. Where is the sense of urgency?
megarockexe
Member
The 3DS needed better specs. Things are moving too fast now so this makes more sense. Not comparable to before.
airmangataosenai
Member
It's not a mater of a new model like this being a mistake, it's a fault with when it's being released. This should have been done a year or more ago, preferably before Pokemon. The idea that the 3DS can hobble along into 2016 is insane if that is seriously what Nintendo intends to do with this move. There's no more software to release to disguise the disinterest in the platform and all the big guns have made their appearance now.
new hardware might not be in a position where it's cost-effective for what they want yet. it could also be that software for such platform(s) is way too early for release. it could be both things.
Synless
Member
When was double the CPU, ram and almost double VRAM a minor upgrade? If Apple did this with their ipad, as they have many times on the past people would be thrilled.
Both of these would be pretty big failures of management. Nintendo needs to be aiming for incredibly affordable, and I suspect they'll be usin iPod touch era hardware from a few gens ago. I would be so surprised if cost was an issue given where mobile computing has gone in the last couple years.
Writing has been on the wall for the 3ds for a while so I would hope they have software deep in development.
Honestly I think capital investment is the bigger issue. They probably can't afford to launch it with QoL and whatever else they are doing going on.
Father_Brain
Banned
Right, this is my problem with it in a nutshell:
I get why New 3DS exists, at least on the basic conceptual level. 3DS is on a very dangerous sales trajectory, and it's very difficult to look at that and say sanguinely that Nintendo can simply ride it out for another two years.
The thing is, I fail to understand how New 3DS does anything to meaningfully address that, simply because the factors that are prematurely killing 3DS (primarily the ubiquity of smartphones and tablets, devices which people already carry around with them everywhere, offering a sea of dirt-cheap or "free" games) are far too deep and structural for a stopgap based on the existing 3DS hardware to meaningfully address.
I get that it might be literally impossible to get NintendOS through R&D any sooner than 2016, but I'm far from convinced that releasing what looks to be a quixotic stopgap is really better than the alternative. Right now, I expect that it'll result in a brief sales bump before 3DS family sales quickly drop back to their former levels.
this wouldn't be a big surprise given how everything was handled after 2009. the wii mini should have made an appearance in 2010 next to the 3ds. the wii u should have made an appearance in 2011 at the latest. both the 3ds and wii u should have had software ready when they launched. but as we're seeing with other new platforms, it seems everyone thought it would be okay if last gen kinda carried things for a while until new platforms really took off. instead it appears like it fed into a general disinterest among handhelds and consoles.
i suspect the cycle went heavy ds development (2004-2006) -> heavy wii development (2005-2009) -> heavy 3ds development (2010-2013) -> heavy wii u development (2013-2015) -> good god this isn't working
whatever they're doing for the new platform might be ready by late 2016 or even late 2017. something to consider is that they could be working hard with a nintendo os that would be possible across multiple devices, and the r&d on that is a lot of new territory that may take more time than they had thought. if the dsi -> 3ds succession is any indication, we may not see any new hardware until 2017. wouldn't that be fun.
it's possible this is it too. the wii fit guys are likely working on qol and they've been quiet for a while.
actually, nintendo hasn't mentioned a damn thing about qol in specific terms aside from its announcement eight months ago. i'll bet the project's been delayed to next fall, and it's pushing other projects back too.
This is a clusterfuck by nintendo, why not just introduce a new handheld with a proper upgrade in hardware. All this is doing with the newest system slight upgrade is splitting the user base. If they went for a new system I could understand but this, makes me not want to get any more hardware from them, i was planning a wii U perchase in the next week but if this is anything to go by i'll pass.
Father_Brain
Banned
Well, that's one way of looking at it. I think some of those Wii U projects could and should have been moved to NintendOS by this point - including, yes, Zelda U - both because they could significantly strengthen the NintendOS software lineup, and because they have so little chance of being profitable on Wii U.
If it's not going to be ready until Q4 2017, I can honestly see new management killing NintendOS before it even launches. Unless I'm totally wrong about QOL flopping, that is.
I thought it was always at least implied to be a Q4 2015 launch, though we're supposed to get more concrete details on it by the end of the calendar year.
I think the quixotic stopgap is actually a little predatory if Nintendo really is going to release a system in 2016. And I mean they absolutely have to so that's me assuming they're being rational but whatever.
At least it's not amibo. Like I need more shit in my life.
Sakura
Member
Hmm I'm really confused about why people are talking like this.
Was the userbase split with the N64 when the expansion pak came out? Was it split by the GBC? Was it split by the DSi? Maybe. Maybe not. But how is this a new trend? Nintendo has done this shit for a long time. So why start asking now if it is a "good trend"?
In any case, personally I think it is great. I am excited about the New 3DS. Unlike many other people, I don't buy minor hardware revisions, because they are just that, minor. I had an original GBA, never got the SP. I had an original DS, but never got the Lite. But I did get the DSi, because it felt like it actually added enough to be worth the money for new hardware. Now for the 3DS, I didn't get an LL, I didn't get a 2DS, but I will get a New 3DS, because the additions it makes are actually attractive enough to make me want to drop the money.
I think it is exciting to see hardware revisions like this, and I hope it will help Nintendo move 3DS's.
Was the userbase split with the N64 when the expansion pak came out? Was it split by the GBC? Was it split by the DSi? Maybe. Maybe not. But how is this a new trend? Nintendo has done this shit for a long time. So why start asking now if it is a "good trend"?
In any case, personally I think it is great. I am excited about the New 3DS. Unlike many other people, I don't buy minor hardware revisions, because they are just that, minor. I had an original GBA, never got the SP. I had an original DS, but never got the Lite. But I did get the DSi, because it felt like it actually added enough to be worth the money for new hardware. Now for the 3DS, I didn't get an LL, I didn't get a 2DS, but I will get a New 3DS, because the additions it makes are actually attractive enough to make me want to drop the money.
I think it is exciting to see hardware revisions like this, and I hope it will help Nintendo move 3DS's.
FreedomFighter
Member
I think (hope) Xenoblade is the exception to the rule (used just to get people to upgrade). I would like Nintendo to create games that are great on 3DS and are ENHANCED on New 3DS.
I think this is the way to go.
I honestly doubt it. I don't think they were expecting the 3DS market to reach saturation this soon, and this is the best they could do until they actually have the successor ready.
i would agree, but without knowing the timeframe it's difficult to say. if the new platform won't be ready until 2017, then that's a lot of time wasted.
i think that behind the scenes, a lot of games that were never talked about have been moved over while others were created specifically to fill gaps (like mario maker, captain toad, and the n64 games). star fox is really the odd man out.
if we start seeing retro working on a new wii u or 3ds game or ead tokyo delivering super mario galaxy 3 for the wii u, it means there will be a very small coming out party for the new platform.
Refreshment.01
Member
You answer the conundrum yourself. Look at 2013 and the high caliber software that released for the platform, in theory that should've helped sustain the interest in the platform to some extent. While Nintendo keeps the redesign card for another round. That is of course leaving aside the obvious potential R&D hurdels as well as potential costs of new components.
The thing is NIntendo was/is aware of the situation they would be in years in advance so they planned this acordingly.
But god damn, what's the alternative everyone keeps talking about?
These are the only 2 work paths for Nintendo in terms of mobile devices (leaving the unifyed architecture/OS aside because it's obvious):
-Release the device with an unique hook/ginmick only posible in the platform. This takes a lot of time.
-Hook up with an important Smart Phone developer and release a phone with a NIntendo aproved interface/input methods and also a dedicated handheld.
There's lots of people in here suggesting to just put together a more powerful system and release it. That doesn't work because is a cul de sac. Nintendo just can't rush any of it's potential platforms to the market like they did with the Wii U which was clewarly an undercooked in both concept and execution.
How is 2DS, 3DS and 3DS XL worse than 2DS N3DS and N3DS XL?
Well actually I've been suggesting a radical strategy shift for like two years when it was obvious what was happening was actually happening but I suppose we could just pretend! I'll get the jasmine costume.
They're not worse than those. They are equally bad. They do not indicate Nintendo learns anything from the market IMO. But we already knew they adapted slower than a fly walking up hill coated in molasses.
They're not worse than those. They are equally bad. They do not indicate Nintendo learns anything from the market IMO. But we already knew they adapted slower than a fly walking up hill coated in molasses.
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/36432/nintendo-quality-of-life-platform-coming-in-2015
qol's release date was supposedly april 2015 when it was first announced. it reminds me of the 3ds being pushed back from its intended fall 2010 launch due to a lack of software and the wii u being delayed from its initial first half of 2012 launch to fall 2012.
spatenfloot
Member
I bet they make a ton of money just from those covers. No software sales necessary!
Refreshment.01
Member
Which is?
Nintendo isn't just going to throw out a completely new device right now. Its going to take them more time to get the product(s) they want out so we're getting this in the meantime.
That's the first I've seen that date. I'm pretty sure that's just someone misinterpreting a statement that it would be released in the fiscal year beginning April 2015.
i really have no faith in the people in charge of the naming conventions over there anymore. they may wind up calling it something different in the us, but i really doubt it. and without major software to push it (again, smash bros. x amiibo x new 3ds would have been kind of the right way to go?), i doubt it'll have a more noticeable impact on its own than gba sp with new brighter screen.
could be. original source came from the twitter stuff as seen in this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=760097
Sounds like Gibbons just misinterpreted Iwata while livetweeting:
I haven't seen anything more specific since then.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
My guess is that this has been in development for the past couple of years on the roadmap and they are just... Staying the course.
Hardware is much more difficult to be reactionary too, than day, price reduction and loyalty programs
Nintendo's unified architecture is going to take some intricate planning and they might have to hold out until 2017. Nintendo has been in stopgap mode since the release of the OG 3DS, and they're waiting for the tech to execute their true vision at a reasonable price. Didn't the Game Boy sort of morph into the 3DS over countless iterations in the past?
CamHostage
Member
...And how little developers have tried to harness the power already there in the original 3DS.
Refreshment.01
Member
And to keep things into perspective the DSi had 4x times the amount of RAM the original had.
The hardware revision for the 3DS was long overdue, it took more time than the ones for the original GBA and DS systems. Also is not like the 3DS(es) previous to the N3DS would suddenly blow in a puff of smoke mission impossible style after its release. The vast mayority of 3DS software will still be playable in those devices.
The account system and region lock is beyond stupid and retrograde. The other real valid complain i can see is in regards to the extra buttons and C stick, there's not a practical reason for those inputs to be absent since launch. But i've been lecturing people about been more vocal and critical towards NIntendo in this department since the GBA days and specially with the DS given that the hardware was capable of 3D and Nintendo didn't include an apt 8 directional method for control.
Also a ton of justice was served today with the people that kept the BS when someone suggested that any new models or revisons for the 3DS should've included an extra circle pad.