Sakurai essay in EDGE on appealing to all types of gamers with the new Smash Bros.
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chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
He hasn't come anywhere close to succeeding though. In any Smash game a tournament-level player is going to absolutely crush an average player 99.9% of the time, regardless of the rule set.
In terms of accessibility and depth he had it with Melee. It was practically two different games in one, the simple-but-fun party game and the complicated tournament game. The latter never negatively impacted the former. That wasn't good enough for Sakurai though, he sees it necessary to eliminate the tournament-level play because... reasons?
Bsed on your time playing the 3DS demo version at SDCC, how would you say the hit stun and knock back mechanics work in their current incarnation?
It may be easy to make you happy xD. i played a lot of smash 64 with friens the other day and... good news!! theres a lot of hitstun!!
(i am joking Anth0ny)
It was funny to read "I just want hitstun", just after me saying "i want this, and this, and that too.."
time for Anth0ny to post that 3 part impression... haha
edit: ups... sorry for the double post. I will be more carefull next time
I thought, you would wish for less electromagnetic interference =P
Long post. I'll try to respond to more of it later but for now just addressing this one part that both you and deeTyrant are bringing up.
SAKURAI said:
It seems that is quote in the very article this thread is about addressing those concerns. Its not to big of a leap when considering things he previously mentioned in the article. The changes he thought needed for a new audience with the Wii need not apply here and so what was lost in the transition between Melee and Brawl was brought back in Smash 4. Will Sakurai succeed in this area? Who knows, we DON"T HAVE THE GAME YET! But in the mean time, lets stop jumping to conclusions.
GameGuru59
Banned
When has Sakurai said he wanted to "eliminate tournament-level play?"
Hard to say because I had so little play time, but from what I've played of the Wii U and 3DS game, I'd say they had more hit stun than Brawl but still nowhere close to Melee or 64.
I was definitely hitting short combos consistantly, like Marth's fair -> fair at 50ish percent, and uptilt -> up air at lower percents. This may have just been bad DI on my opponent's part but I managed a pretty long combo with Pikachu in the Wii U version:
up tilt -> up tilt -> fair -> double jump -> nair
It felt great and it felt like a real combo, but who knows.
Besides very basic stuff like Kirby's up tilt -> up tilt -> back air, I need more time to get used to 3DS' controls before I'll be able to quickly follow up one attack with another. Hopefully the hitstun is at least on par with the Wii U version.
OmegaSmash
Member
Did you feel the knockback being too high on some moves? That's what bothers me. Like, it doesn't matter if there's hitstun, too much knockback (among other things) will make it harder to follow.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
That's admitted a bit of reading between the lines and exaggeration on my part, but his entire goal seems to be to remove depth from the game (despite him saying the opposite, but we'll see). His entire design philosophy for the series is accessibility, and the very dumb notion that everyone should be on the same level. You can't have a fun game where people who rarely play it are competitive with people who play it for hours a day, the only way that happens is if the entire game boils down to randomness. And that's not fun.
And aside from that, he basically says in the article in the OP there are other fighting games for people who want that "complexity" (read: depth). If Sakurai actually cared about the competitive community beyond "+1 sale" he would have embraced and simplified the metagame, not made attempts to neuter it.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Was he behind Kirby's Return to Dreamland? Because that game was not good.
His final Kirby game was Air Ride.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I'd say some moves have a bit too much knockback, yeah.
Good lord, Marth's down throw is suddenly a horizontal KO move.
I don't think he has said that outright but going from Melee to Brawl does give that impression along with past interviews:
http://mynintendonews.com/2010/12/08/nintendo-gamecube-smash-brothers-melee-was-too-difficult/
I think it's in the OP's interview as well:
GameGuru59
Banned
I'd say some moves have a bit too much knockback, yeah.
Isn't that still the E3 build though?
I've seen a lot of people go to "its an old build" a lot this year while trying to remain hopeful about possible changes, but stuff like high knockback, land lag, etc. seems intentional. I highly doubt there will be any big, perceptible changes between the E3 build and the final one.
PensivePen
Member
Like what? People wanting to play a fun game with good mechanics.
I'd say some moves have a bit too much knockback, yeah.
You know, every time I see things like this, I realize that there's ways to adapt around it (down throw - fox trot mix ups). I just really need for this game to be out so we can see where all of the nuances are headed.
MrSaturn99
Member
peanutbutterlatte
Member
People phrasing their vitriole filled, childish posts as if Sakurai fingered their cat.
But you probably new that. Criticism is fine, if well worded. But 75% of the posts here are just pathetic.
What? This thread has been civil (well, excpet for deckard...) for the most part. People are explaining their arguments and having good discussion imo.
PensivePen
Member
I think your 75% is a massive exaggeration. From what I've seen most people are being very reasonable about their criticism. And most of the really bad comments are short ones from drive by posters that don't stick around to even engage in the conversation.
My concern is "Will it be fun to play?" Well I did play it at the bestbuy event and I certainly did. So yes it will be fun to play.
Many fighting games in a series play differently throughout its time. And people go back to older games because they like one's certain mechanics. Smash is no exception. Just enjoy the ride. I know I will.
Many fighting games in a series play differently throughout its time. And people go back to older games because they like one's certain mechanics. Smash is no exception. Just enjoy the ride. I know I will.
Are we reading the same thread?
Maybe you guys haven't been exposed to enough Melee vs. Brawl threads. Cause this is pretty civil.
I promise you nobody will talk about all this stuff during release window, like always.
It will get huge backlash about 1 month later though, starting with a "Is it just me or.."-thread.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
The worst posts are actually the people who drive-by poo-pooing the tone of the conversation and adding nothing to what's been a pretty civil discussion about video games. God forbid people do that on a video game message board. God forbid people think critically about video game mechanics on a hardcore video game enthusiast forum.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Well the bad always outshadows the good, and I'm sorry, but I've seen a lot of bad in this thread. Calling Sakurai insane, calling for his dismissal, calling his entire back catalogue shite.
^Yeah Viewtiful, because your posts have been incredibly thoughtful and well planned out. Don't make me laugh.
^Yeah Viewtiful, because your posts have been incredibly thoughtful and well planned out. Don't make me laugh.
PensivePen
Member
That would make sense since people usually take time to form an opinion on a game, especially if it's about the nuanced mechanics of high level play. Ultimately we won't know until people have actually played it, but I don't blame anyone for speculating on what we've seen. That's why they show pre-release footage after all, to give as an idea of what we're getting into.
GameGuru59
Banned
Just because he wants the game to be less complex doesn't mean he doesn't want there to be tourney play. It just means he doesn't want there to be fighting game style tourney play. It's not incumbent on Sakurai to appease every desire of avid Melee players so they can have tournaments with the same cast of characters they did in that game. This may be more true if Smash Bros. were a traditional fighting game in the vein of Street Fighter or MvC but it's not. It's more of a fighter-platformer-sandbox. This means in addition to being a balanced fighter, it must balance all three of the objective stated above. It still amazes me that some of you have not considered the idea that the removal of some of the more complex fighting aspects of the game might make some of the other aspects of the game better- particularly the platforming.
Moreover, its a well known Nintendo design halmark to make games control as simple as possible, while creating depth through the design of the game itself- especially level design. Mario Kart and F-Zero aren't particularly complex games to control, but the way the levels themselves are designed forces the player make complex decisions with these limited controls. This is what Sakurai wants from Smash Bros., and why he thought Melee was a step to far in the other direction.
It is incumbent on the tournement scene to make Smash exciting for themselves, not the other way around. Brawl, (the iteration played least in tournaments) is the best selling individual fighting game of all time. Sakurai owes you nothing really- so just use what he gives you, which is HUUGE. He lets you change the damage ratio so you can have combos, he lets you (in Brawl, hopefully in 4) create your own stages so you can both negate and overcome the game's shortcomings, he gives you a wide range of items. Smash is a sandbox fighter. There's plenty to base tournaments off of if you don't like every aspect of the fighting engine, people just have to embrace it. You can't go to a party where everyone else is having fun, and then complain that you didn't have fun for x and y reasons. It't highly unlikely anyone is going to listen.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
I've read enough posts in this thread that suggest Sakurai is somehow deficient as a game designer because his priorities are not in line with whatever particular way you prefer to play a video game to solidify my overall impression of this "debate." Everyone is welcome to like whatever they like but crucifying the man who dedicated his every waking moment to this franchise as if your personal insight is somehow unimpeachable makes me sick.
There are some reasonable people in here, but that does not negate the overall tone. And that tone makes me embarrassed to associate with the fanbase. Enough so that I find myself wanting the game to be the polar opposite of what these people want just to spite them.
There are some reasonable people in here, but that does not negate the overall tone. And that tone makes me embarrassed to associate with the fanbase. Enough so that I find myself wanting the game to be the polar opposite of what these people want just to spite them.
Spring-Loaded
Member
I don't like discussing these games, not because of childish/vitriolic posts about the games, but because of people complaining about those aforementioned posts even when they aren't being made... maddening. Those people who are shell-shocked from engaging in SSB discussion too frequently are just as bad as the phantom posters they hate so much
Don't do this.
Of all the ails there are in this fan base, it's people with views like this that legitimately strike the wrong chords in my mind.
Not everyone else is having fun, as is evident by this thread.
PensivePen
Member
This is incredibly petty and probably far more unreasonable than the supposed people you seem so disgusted with.
Welp. You helped the discussion (sarcasm) ;p
edit: haha ninjaed by Azure J and PensivePen (gaf allways so fast)
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
I know, I know. But there's only so much of this I can take. It turns what should be an enjoyable hobby into a exercise in frustration and disappoinent. I turn to gaming to enjoy myself, and react very poorly when this kind of stuff is what's there instead.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
There's a giant Smash thread right over there where they circlejerk about nothing in particular and hold hands and sing songs about their favorite characters. I think both threads can work just fine.
I am sorry but thats not an apropiate "excuse" for reacting like you did.
I agree. Melee is an amazing game, but I've started to hate it solely because of some of its more annoying fans. Melee 2.0 is never going to be made by Sakurai, and no amount of complaining will change that.
That is true and all, but many seem to compare it to Melee as much as possible which is unfair. This is what many people - me included - are kind of annoyed of since if people want Melee they should just play Melee because I'm not seeing it vanishing in the near future.
I love a lot of speculation as long as it is fair and reasonable.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Don't get me wrong. That was not an apology.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Have you actually seen that thread? People in there rejoice at the idea of characters being cut if if can piss someone else off.
PensivePen
Member
I think that people just use melee and brawl because they're the closest analogue for comparison obviously, being in the same series, yet play very differently. And generally melee contains the things that they want the series to move toward. I don't think anyone ever said it was a 100% perfect game, as any game could always use improvements and more balancing.
I don't necessarily want the game to play identical to melee. I want it to be the full, updated Smash Bros experience with more characters, stages, etc but I also want a game with sufficient speed (because I find the faster gameplay to be more fun) and a suitable amount of depth that I feel I can continue to get better and learn it for a long time, yet still be accessible so new players can start enjoying themselves right away (this doesn't necessarily mean being to win just as often as experienced players, which would never happen anyway unless skill was 100% removed from the equation). I've never been a tournament player, but those are the things that made me have more fun with melee despite enjoying the breadth of content in Brawl more.
The Smash community in general can be pretty unpleasant at times. I guess that's what happens when you bring so many different series together, many of who's fans might have conflicting ideas about what they want in the game, or want the game to focus upon.
This thread also reassures me that someone in the indie game development spectrum stands to carve out a real profitable niche if they can deliver a game with Melee's core battle design and position it to the audience that has floundered about looking for something further down Melee's direction.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
People compare to Melee for what it did right. And that's still not so much specific mechanics (or glitches or any way you want to describe anything) but the overall design of the game. Brawl gets compared to a lot as well, but it's mostly for what it did wrong. And 64 is hard to compare to because the game is pretty barebones in comparison, I don't think anybody actually wants features removed (unless you count tripping as a feature) (or the ridiculous hitstun and full lag elimination leading to lots of 0-death combos).
And I think the problem in this thread (and similar threads, I don't usually participate though) is basically the drive-by posters. There is definitely a fair amount of exaggeration and some shitposting but I think it's heavily outweighed by drive-bys and actual discourse about the series.
Also, I think some people are way too sensitive to criticism of these games which leads to problems.
I think it's been done before, but none have ever taken off. And with Project M existing now I doubt anything else ever really will, that basically turned Brawl into a modular Smash game that can be tweaked quite a bit to improve or just outright change the metagame.
Of course that's as much of a problem as it is a solution, the metagame can't properly evolve if the game itself keeps changing beyond small balance fixes.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Thats actually a really good idea, surprised nobody's tried that yet. It'd be sorta hard to do without nostalgic characters, but far from impossible.