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[Kinyou]

This is a really good article addressing the people who brought up the whole "realism" justification of sexual violence and murder of women in video games:



And most importantly that everyone who brings up the "realism" argument:

At the same time you hear people complain when an outfit isn't realistic and practical. Like Catwoman wearing high heels while fighting. I feel like the "it's just a game" and "it's supposed to be realistic" gets mixed up by both sides

(btw. A little disappointing how she just brushes Elizabeth off merely because she's a supporting character in the game.)

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

This article talks about some of the raised criticisms and mentions stuff about media effects: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/imortal/2014/08/27/brutalizing-women-in-video-games/

From the article:

But the real difference here is that TV shows and movies are passive entertainment. The viewer simply watches. In games, the viewer is a player, and the player is taking part in these activities. We watch women treated horrendously as a matter of course in The Sopranos, but we don’t cause it to happen. We don’t play the role of Tony Soprano and then by our own will beat the shit out of a women who’s bruised his ego. In a game, we can, and they do.

This is just handwaving. We have no evidence that this matters, or if it does matter to what extent it matters.

 

[Galactic Fork]

But men are also used for background decoration, same as women.

It's not "same as women." In the video she even described how it's different. Men in the background aren't usually sexualized, and when it comes to background violence men are much much much more often active rather than passive victims. Look at the difference she described between the two in Watch Dogs. Or even at the difference between the randoms in RDR. The women are more passive and the encounters are sexualized.

The argument brought up against this is that "because there are good examples of men too in those games". If that applies to men, why wouldn't it apply to the bonnies of read dead?

That's not the only argument against it, and that argument is more about the much broader array of depictions of men throughout video games. Women's depictions are much more limited. And she will be doing a video on positive examples, but this video is about a specific depiction and how it manifests in many games. I'm sure many of those games use other negative tropes for women, but she didn't go into them either. She had a topic. Hey, if this was the only video ever, sure. But it's not.

 

[petran79]

At the same time you hear people complain when an outfit isn't realistic and practical. Like Catwoman wearing high heels while fighting. I feel like the "it's just a game" and "it's supposed to be realistic" gets mixed up by both sides

(btw. A little disappointing how she just brushes Elizabeth off merely because she's a supporting character in the game.)

She hasnt played burial at sea obviously, but i'd doubt she'd able to stomach the finale

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

It's not "same as women." In the video she even described how it's different. Men in the background aren't usually sexualized, and when it comes to background violence men are much much much more often active rather than passive victims. Look at the difference she described between the two in Watch Dogs. Or even at the difference between the randoms in RDR. The women are more passive and the encounters are sexualized.



That's not the only argument against it, and that argument is more about the much broader array of depictions of men throughout video games. Women's depictions are much more limited. And she will be doing a video on positive examples, but this video is about a specific depiction and how it manifests in many games. I'm sure many of those games use other negative tropes for women, but she didn't go into them either. She had a topic. Hey, if this was the only video ever, sure. But it's not.

How they are USED as background decoration may be different, but what they serve as, which is background decoration, is exactly the same. For Watch Dogs, just for clarifications sake, as I haven't played the game, are the examples of men and women she showed exclsuively how those little side activities always play out? Like the men will always throw a punch, or the women will always get stabbed etc. Or are there different versions for both?

But that's exactly my point, in a game like RDR where there IS a broad spectrum of representation for women, why is she pointing out the bad? If what she would like is to have more positive representations to women to balance out the bad, which is what men have, why do you point out the flaw in the game which is doing what she likes?

 

[Earthpainting]

How they are USED as background decoration may be different, but what they serve as, which is background decoration, is exactly the same. For Watch Dogs, just for clarifications sake, as I haven't played the game, are the examples of men and women she showed exclsuively how those little side activities always play out? Like the men will always throw a punch, or the women will always get stabbed etc. Or are there different versions for both?

But that's exactly my point, in a game like RDR where there IS a broad spectrum of representation for women, why is she pointing out the bad? If what she would like is to have more positive representations to women to balance out the bad, which is what men have, why do you point out the flaw in the game which is doing what she likes?

This is a problem when talking with tropes. The point is to show how common certain elements are, regardless of other representations. It's best not to look at the videos and assume that the games that are brought up are automatically bad at representing women for using some tropes. I think the idea is to take a step back and think about all the other times you've seen them in games, now that you've been given examples of each element. Armed with the new knowledge, you should be able to see how lame the pervasive disempowerment and sexualisation is, and empathise for the need of better use of gals in games. The ball is then in the court of the developers, whom are then in the position to try and avoid those usual trappings in their future projects.

I'm not a fan of approaching it at this angle either, but it is a good way of getting a lot of examples, as context stops being very relevant. I personally find context to be important, but I can see how context can be loaded with hand-waving excuses, often has levels of personal interpretation going on, and requires a lot more research. It would make the subject a lot more difficult to argue for.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

I find context to be important, but I can see how context can be loaded with hand-waving excuses, often has levels of personal interpretation going on, and requires a lot more research. It would make the subject a lot more difficult to argue for.

Or easier to argue for.

 

[Galactic Fork]

How they are USED as background decoration may be different, but what they serve as, which is background decoration, is exactly the same. For Watch Dogs, just for clarifications sake, as I haven't played the game, are the examples of men and women she showed exclsuively how those little side activities always play out? Like the men will always throw a punch, or the women will always get stabbed etc. Or are there different versions for both?

The how they are used is what's important in the series. Why do you think she contrasts men in similar situations in each of her videos? Look at the difference between the women and the men in the hitman ads. This is also one of the purposes. This is why she points out the differences in each ad. She is not comparing good representations with bad representations, she's comparing how in similar representations, when they occur, the women feature sexualization and\or lack of agency (or in the Mrs Male Character video, how their "female-ness" is their only quality). As if the only reason the woman was chosen was so she could be passively victimized or sexualized. Otherwise they'd just use a guy.

But that's exactly my point, in a game like RDR where there IS a broad spectrum of representation for women, why is she pointing out the bad? If what she would like is to have more positive representations to women to balance out the bad, which is what men have, why do you point out the flaw in the game which is doing what she likes?

I'd hardly say RDR has a "broad spectrum," but it's not about each individual game, it's about the tropes, and how often designers will resort to them. It's also not only about having more positive representation to balance the bad, it's also about pointing them out so designers will recognize they're doing it and maybe think twice about using that trope. And considering designers have stated they hadn't noticed previously, but do now, I'd say it's working.

I find context to be important, but I can see how context can be loaded with hand-waving excuses, often has levels of personal interpretation going on, and requires a lot more research. It would make the subject a lot more difficult to argue for.

Context is irrelevant when pointing out trends. You can create logical, detailed, and elaborate context for anything. The designers chose to put that context in. So when faced with many examples throughout the industry, you ask what about the element was so important they created the context for it.

As I posted earlier:

I could create a game that logically and contextually depicted gamers as the lowest basement dwelling scum of the earth. Just take the worst aspects of the stereotypes and turn it up to 11, and make sure it's portrayed as a negative. Hey I can explain the context why it has to be this way. Perfectly reasonable in the game universe. And I'm sure you'd notice if many many games portrayed gamers in a horrible light, you might imagine the game creators had a very specific view of gamers, or at least had unconscious biases they might not have examined.

 

[QuickSilverD]

This may have been posted before, but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYoWDALXrQY

This video well articulates my problem with this topic (and only this topic of Women as Background Decoration)

Basically how pretty much all the problems Anita has with the trope are problems with low level NPCs and not with misogyny, since games don't have infinite budgets these problems can not be solve anyways

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

This may have been posted before, but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYoWDALXrQY

This video well articulates my problem with this topic (and only this topic of Women as Background Decoration)

Basically how pretty much all the problems Anita has with the trope are problems with low level NPCs and not with misogyny, since games don't have infinite budgets these problems can not be solve anyways

How about solving it by not putting brothels into the plot? It wont dent budgetary constraints.

 

[Lime]

This may have been posted before, but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYoWDALXrQY

This video well articulates my problem with this topic (and only this topic of Women as Background Decoration)

Basically how pretty much all the problems Anita has with the trope are problems with low level NPCs and not with misogyny, since games don't have infinite budgets these problems can not be solve anyways

Yes, the amount of money required to properly write and depict strippers and violence towards them is such a huge extra cost. And certainly it is impossible to simply remove or Cut or alter the scenario in ways that wouldn't include superficial sexualized violence towards women.

Meanwhile, let the big publishers and developers spend a huge sum of money and resources on production values like scripted one-sequence animations, particle effects, or celebrity voice actors and lavish CGI trailers and marketing.

The point is that there are so many ways to fix the use of these tropes and it isn't hard or expensive. All it requires is either a little bit of thought or a willingness to talk to someone who knows about this shit.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

The how they are used is what's important in the series. Why do you think she contrasts men in similar situations in each of her videos? Look at the difference between the women and the men in the hitman ads. This is also one of the purposes. This is why she points out the differences in each ad. She is not comparing good representations with bad representations, she's comparing how in similar representations, when they occur, the women feature sexualization and\or lack of agency (or in the Mrs Male Character video, how their "female-ness" is their only quality). As if the only reason the woman was chosen was so she could be passively victimized or sexualized. Otherwise they'd just use a guy.



I'd hardly say RDR has a "broad spectrum," but it's not about each individual game, it's about the tropes, and how often designers will resort to them. It's also not only about having more positive representation to balance the bad, it's also about pointing them out so designers will recognize they're doing it and maybe think twice about using that trope. And considering designers have stated they hadn't noticed previously, but do now, I'd say it's working.



Context is irrelevant when pointing out trends. You can create logical, detailed, and elaborate context for anything. The designers chose to put that context in. So when faced with many examples throughout the industry, you ask what about the element was so important they created the context for it.

As I posted earlier:

So she can contrast the ads but not contrast the characters?

Context can also "break" a trend, hence why context is very important.

And RDR does have a broad spectrum of both race and personality, I can't say many games top it in that regard.

 

[trickyhero]

This isn't really a problem of just videogames. Shows, books, movies, music, they all can be sexist just as much. The reason that many of the games she are pointing at have this thing is that that they are western games made for young adult males, look at movies targeted at this same group and it will have the same kind of patterns.

Videogames can be tasteful though, it all depends, games like Journey are certaintly not like this, and theres no reason that more games can't be like this.

The thing is with alot of these games they are showing stuff in the worst possible light, in GTA everyone's terrible, youre a mass murder and the women are whores. Or in a game like Metro Last Light, they do their dancing because they are stuck in tunnels and their are not many jobs for anyone, including women, and so they just ended up being dancers. As long as it makes sense I don't think it's too offensive, infact some women like doing that kind of dancing.

Of course I think it'd be cool if you went to some gay club with guys in cages in some game, I think that'd be great. Heck, just gender swap the next COD or GTA with girls as the protags and guys as the people being exploited, I think that'd be interesting.

For real though, it's just a young medium, and the positions women are in can change, I look forward to it.

 

[zeldablue]

Some interesting studies on the conscious and unconscious bias we have about women.

I do feel a bit safer/more respected when my gender is hidden. If Anita hadn't shown her face and if she had a robot male voice...I really wonder how things would've gone.

 

[Galactic Fork]

So she can contrast the ads but not contrast the characters?

Well... To quote myself in... the very thing you're responding to:
"She is not comparing good representations with bad representations, she's comparing how in similar representations, when they occur, the women feature sexualization and\or lack of agency (or in the Mrs Male Character video, how their "female-ness" is their only quality). As if the only reason the woman was chosen was so she could be passively victimized or sexualized. Otherwise they'd just use a guy."

Why would she bring up Bonnie when Bonnie isn't background decoration?

Context can also "break" a trend, hence why context is very important.

Context is important for internal consistency. In that instance context is awesome, but on a meta level it doesn't matter as much because no matter what the context is, someone wrote it. Someone decided to put in. Someone made the context. These games don't exist on their own. They didn't spring from Zeus's forehead fully formed. Everything in a game is a choice.

Also, context can't "'break' a trend." That makes no sense.
And before you bring up social commentary on the trend or social critique, I suggest you go back and watch the part of the video where she discusses that and why these games aren't it.

And RDR does have a broad spectrum of both race and personality, I can't say many games top it in that regard.

Oh, do please elaborate. Please tell me broad spectrum of representation of women in RDR. Extra points if you include the ones you can tie up, throw on railroad tracks and get a trophy\achievement after they get killed by a train.

 

[Earthpainting]

Or easier to argue for.

I have to be honest that I'm drawing blanks on instances where it would make it easier. If it's not too off-topic, I'd be interested in maybe an example.

I can think of plenty of ones where it would make it more difficult. A lot of creators use texture, theming, or flimsy plot reasons to justify their use of tropes. I'd argue that most of the critique I've read against Anita's videos is about specific instances where people feel like she brushes over details, "misrepresents" events, or swings a different way on things open for personal interpretation. I have for example had plenty of discussions on whether or not ICO has one of the more regressive, insulting representations of video game women, made even worse by other questionable statements by the creator. A ton of people disagree, and see justification in ICO's decisions. They think the characterisation of its three characters are not only fine, but also crucial to its atmosphere, understated storytelling and its gameplay mechanics. You could delve pretty deep into this, but it ultimately has no real place within the framework of a more generic trope list.

Context is irrelevant when pointing out trends. You can create logical, detailed, and elaborate context for anything. The designers chose to put that context in. So when faced with many examples throughout the industry, you ask what about the element was so important they created the context for it.

As I posted earlier:

I don't disagree with you, but I find examining these reasons why developers made these decisions the most interesting element. Merely plotting tropes and trends can easily be reductionist if we speculate over catch-all "big picture" reasons behind them. The only way around this though is through proper and expansive analysis of the individual instances, which no doubt exceeds the scope of her project, and changes the focus from a social critique to a game design, artistic or literary one. So while I understand that this is the best way to get across her message in easily digestible video form, I'm simply can't say I'm a fan of the of approach. I enjoy the discussions that bloom from these videos a lot more, which I'm glad to say are plentiful across both the internet and my social circles.

I should note that all of this though applies less to the Background Decoration episodes than for the others of course. I doubt are a ton of different interpretations or reasons behind ambient sleeze and grit. They can't really be of greater consequence when their existence is relegated to the backdrop.

 

[QuickSilverD]

How about solving it by not putting brothels into the plot? It wont dent budgetary constraints.

Do you think we should never have brothels? that they could never add nothing to the plot?

 

[Vice]

Do you think we should never have brothels? that they could never add nothing to the plot?

If they're so integral to the story then populate them with NPCs that matter.

 

[Clukos]

The feeling I get from her videos is that she mostly doesn't play the games she criticizes. You can make an argument against hers using footage from a different level/chapter in most games on her list. Precisely why I'll never take her seriously. Seems like an attempt to gather attention on her persona rather than the problems she is presenting.

 

[The Storyteller]

Do you think we should never have brothels? that they could never add nothing to the plot?

They tend not to. They're often used as shorthand to convey the world as gritty and/or have some window dressing for the straight male gamer to ogle over, and nothing more. If that's the extent of the reasoning for their inclusion, then the game creators are lazy.

The feeling I get from her videos is that she mostly doesn't play the games she criticizes. You can make an argument against hers using footage from a different level/chapter in most games on her list. Precisely why I'll never take her seriously. Seems like an attempt to gather attention on her persona rather than the problems she is presenting.

You'd be wrong.

 

[Sneds]

The feeling I get from her videos is that she mostly doesn't play the games she criticizes. You can make an argument against hers using footage from a different level/chapter in most games on her list. Precisely why I'll never take her seriously. Seems like an attempt to gather attention on her persona rather than the problems she is presenting.

She's pointing out consistent misogynistic tropes in games. How would using different footage make that disappear?

 

[Clukos]

She's pointing out consistent misogynistic tropes in games. How would using different footage make that disappear?

I don't mean different footage as in different games. Just the same game she is presenting as misogynistic including the opposite. From what I've seen it is just cherry picking. And it is for that reason they become controversial, because there is room to argue.

Should we censor every entertainment medium because a percentage of people who chose to play/watch/read it (hopefully) don't like a certain scene? Can't we have strong female characters alongside weak female characters? Isn't this the same case for male characters? Surely not every male character is as "badass" as the main character, you have to make him stand out. Can we consider this as misandry? I don't like to delve in such terms. I've been a lifelong fan of series that feature strong female leads, I've read many books in which females were not only equal to men, but played a major role in the progression of the story. I still don't think any medium should be censored. By trying to extinguish "oppression" you form another way of oppressing artists.

Now Anita for example, makes Hitman seem like a brothel woman beating simulator. As someone who hasn't even played the series all that much even i know that's not true; therefore, it makes me want to argue about it. Her analysis of games is always incomplete mainly because she tries to find and pick the parts that prove her point. As i would never take a biased, half-assed academic essay seriously i can't take her opinion seriously. The matters she is discussing are important, at least do some proper research beforehand and provide me with a complete analysis about games that is deserving of the topic discussed.

What she does is provide controversial content, remove the ability to respond back, rate and argue about it on youtube, essentially moving the discussion on forums such as neogaf providing even more exposure.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

I don't mean different footage as in different games. Just the same game she is presenting as misogynistic including the opposite. From what I've seen it is just cherry picking. And it is for that reason they become controversial, because there is room to argue.

Should we censor every entertainment medium because a percentage of people who chose to play/watch/read it (hopefully) don't like a certain scene? Can't we have strong female characters alongside weak female characters? Isn't this the same case for male characters? Surely not every male character is as "badass" as the main character, you have to make him stand out. Can we consider this as misandry? I don't like to delve in such terms. I've been a lifelong fan of series that feature strong female leads, I've read many books in which females were not only equal to men, but played a major role in the progression of the story. I still don't think any medium should be censored. By trying to extinguish "oppression" you form another way of oppressing artists.

Now Anita for example, makes Hitman seem like a brothel woman beating simulator. As someone who hasn't even played the series all that much even i know that's not true; therefore, it makes me want to argue about it. Her analysis of games is always incomplete mainly because she tries to find and pick the parts that prove her point. As i would never take a biased, half-assed academic essay seriously i can't take her opinion seriously. The matters she is discussing are important, at least do some proper research beforehand and provide me with a complete analysis about games that is deserving of the topic discussed.

What she does is provide controversial content, remove the ability to respond back, rate and argue about it on youtube, essentially moving the discussion on forums such as neogaf providing even more exposure.

Bolded part: cuz artists are so oppressed ;__;

Actual response: If I was Anita I'd also be disabling comments. Seeing the vitriol she's had to put up with, I'd rather discourage feedback channels that are too direct.



@QuickSilverD, I have no problems with brothels. I was just commenting on the fact that something could have been done without having to dent budgetary constraints because you said that due to budgetary constraints some problems could not be solved anyway.

Also, brothels are kind of staple these days. And I don't know what that says about that...

 

[Wrestlemania]

Tropes vs Responses to Threads About 'Tropes vs Women in Gaming'

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Tropes vs Responses to Threads About 'Tropes vs Women in Gaming'

Tropeception :O We must go deeper.

 

[Clukos]

cuz artists are so oppressed ;__;

They may be, given time. You seem to underestimate the effect social issues (even when presented poorly) can have on mediums such as games.

If I was Anita I'd also be disabling comments. Seeing the vitriol she's had to put up with, I'd rather discourage feedback channels that are too direct.

If you have a strong argument you don't have to censor your audience. She is arguing that said games are misogynistic, if that's true why wouldn't she be open to counter argument in order for everyone to find a common ground? You can't just force your opinion into your audience, doesn't work like that.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

They may be, given time. You seem to underestimate the effect social issues (even when presented poorly) can have on mediums such as games.



If you have a strong argument you don't have to censor your audience. She is arguing that said games are misogynistic, if that's true why wouldn't she be open to counter argument in order for everyone to find a common ground? You can't just force your opinion into your audience, doesn't work like that.

Eh. I'll cry for artists' oppressions once women's oppressions are dealt with. And even then, only maybe.

Disclaimer: I've done freelance work (concepts and illustrations).

bolded part: I think the gaming industry sort of have been underestimating the effect of social issues, such as women's fair representation, can have in mediums such as games.

I don't think she wants to censor her audience, initially. But maybe, it's her audience that proved themselves rather toxic. Did you see the threatening tweets she received?

 

[Diablos]

As much as I love God of War, I'm glad she talked about the "I didn't do it... but I wish I did" trophy. GoW3 is amazing but I thought that was extremely perverse and tasteless (and really, how Kratos kind of man-handles her to a horrible death was also absurd). It kind of soils an otherwise epic gaming experience and I thought its inclusion in the game did it (and the series) a disservice.

 

[Clukos]

How are women not represented fairly? Like i said, strong females can co-exist with weak females. This is the way it's been with males in games for a long time. How is it oppressing to see a whore in a brothel, behaving like... a whore in a brothel?

Sure some games like God of War ooze testosterone; despite that, the female goddesses are represented as they should be according to ancient Greek mythology. Should we criticize ancient Greeks for making the goddess of love, erotic? And even then, every male god is ripped to pieces. Have you forgotten how Kratos

Spoiler

rips the head of Helios and is using it as a lamp for the rest of the game?

Movies and books are separated in different categories for a reason, nobody can please everyone at the same time. Why should games be any different?

 

[The Technomancer]

How are women not represented fairly? Like i said, strong females can co-exist with weak females. This is the way it's been with males in games for a long time. How is it oppressing to see a whore in a brothel, behaving like... a whore in a brothel?

Sure some games like God of War ooze testosterone; despite that, the female goddesses are represented as they should be. Should we criticize ancient Greeks for making the goddess of love, erotic? And even then, every male god is ripped to pieces. Have you forgotten how Kratos

Spoiler

rips the head of Helios and is using it as a lamp for the rest of the game?

Movies and books are separated in different categories for a reason, nobody can please everyone at the same time. Why should games be any different?

I'm not singling you out specifically, but considering how many times this reasoning has been brought up and addressed I really wish we could write or put together a general purpose answer instead of having to respond to every time that its brought up ad nauseum.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Movies and books are separated in different categories for a reason, nobody can please everyone at the same time. Why should games be any different?

The issue with games is the overwhelming asymmetry between the representations of women in comparison to men. There is a high ratio of female characters who are weak or used as props, victims, prizes, and sex objects in comparison to males who are used similarly and even strong/well written females. It's a disparity.

 

[GunslingerVit]

I would assume that it's a thing of target audience and demographics.

But it seems to be such a tiresome discussion and so many moot points, that at a certain point it's just exchanging arguments ad nauseam.

 

[Clukos]

The issue with games is the overwhelming asymmetry between the representations of women in comparison to men. There is a high ratio of female characters who are weak or used as props, victims, prizes, and sex objects in comparison to males who are used similarly and even strong/well written females. It's a disparity.

Maybe i am playing the wrong games. It has been a long time since i saw a woman severely sexualised in a game. Most games I've played recently offer their fair share of female characters that are there to add to the narrative not just because they are female.

Plus, aren't most "bad guys" in games male, you know the ones you have to kill repeatedly in order to progress in games like Uncharted, or The Last of Us (games i really enjoyed playing). Isn't it a bit ironic to complain about that one odd whore in that part of one segment of a game when you have to spent most of the time blowing heads of male "bad guys" in the very same game?

 

[V_Arnold]

How are women not represented fairly? Like i said, strong females can co-exist with weak females. This is the way it's been with males in games for a long time. How is it oppressing to see a whore in a brothel, behaving like... a whore in a brothel?

Sure some games like God of War ooze testosterone; despite that, the female goddesses are represented as they should be according to ancient Greek mythology. Should we criticize ancient Greeks for making the goddess of love, erotic? And even then, every male god is ripped to pieces. Have you forgotten how Kratos

Spoiler

rips the head of Helios and is using it as a lamp for the rest of the game?

Movies and books are separated in different categories for a reason, nobody can please everyone at the same time. Why should games be any different?

Yeah, other mediums get to get a bit more nuanced than that*.
In real life, rape does not only happen to females. In video games, if it is a rape, 999 times out of 1000, it is a threat made against a female.
If it is a weak character, and they want to emphasise weakness, it is goiing to be a female.

The list could go on and on.
Blockbuster movies are about the only thing left where you could almost draw an 1:1 paralell in how the studios have absolute control and the designers mostly never leave their own comfort zones. Never.

TV Shows? Most of my favorites have plenty of strong female leads.
Books? Complex concepts can be explained, written out. Bestsellers can contain things that are largely unused in mainstream games.

Maybe i am playing the wrong games. It has been a long time since i saw a woman severely sexualised in a game. Most games I've played recently offer their fair share of female characters that are there to add to the narrative not just because they are female.

Plus, aren't most "bad guys" in games male, you know the ones you have to kill repeatedly in order to progress in games like Uncharted, or The Last of Us (games i really enjoyed playing). Isn't it a bit ironic to complain about that one odd whore in that part of one segment of a game when you have to spent most of the time blowing heads of male "bad guys" in the very same game?

Problem is,as the Anita video showed as well: why is it that "violence: against man, threat of rape/rape: against woman" is okay? If you have to include something like that, do not do it that way. There are plenty of ways to improve on this. And this is not even about arguing on the level of violence/sexuality displayed.

 

[The Technomancer]

Maybe i am playing the wrong games. It has been a long time since i saw a woman severely sexualised in a game. Most games I've played recently offer their fair share of female characters that are there to add to the narrative not just because they are female.

Plus, aren't most "bad guys" in games male, you know the ones you have to kill repeatedly in order to progress in games like Uncharted, or The Last of Us (games i really enjoyed playing). Isn't it a bit ironic to complain about that one odd whore in that part of one segment of a game when you have to spent most of the time blowing heads of male "bad guys" in the very same game?

The whole "background decoration" complaint is that while the male characters who get violently treated are almost universally a.)fighting back against the player or b.)as she showed in the video, at least fighting back against their attacker, the women being used to add "this person/area is evil" flavor to the game are pretty universally just victims. Objectified because they are defined by what is being done to them, not anything they themselves are doing

 

[EdibleKnife]

Maybe i am playing the wrong games. It has been a long time since i saw a woman severely sexualised in a game. Most games I've played recently offer their fair share of female characters that are there to add to the narrative not just because they are female.

Plus, aren't most "bad guys" in games male, you know the ones you have to kill repeatedly in order to progress in games like Uncharted, or The Last of Us (games i really enjoyed playing). Isn't it a bit ironic to complain about that one odd whore in that part of one segment of a game when you have to spent most of the time blowing heads of male "bad guys" in the very same game?

The difference is tone. Nothing is wrong with having a female or male villain. Them being killed by the hero is not the point. The point is the tone. The villain and hero are on equal standing in the games you mentioned. Both use their strength and skills to fight against you. When Anita references things like the prostitutes in AssCreed or the beaten women in Watch_Dogs the tone is completely different. They are either dressed in a provocative way or the reason why they are being killed somehow references their sexuality or use as an object by the male offender. The tone makes it out that they are objects to be used or killed to define who the male character is.

 

[Earthpainting]

How are women not represented fairly? Like i said, strong females can co-exist with weak females. This is the way it's been with males in games for a long time. How is it oppressing to see a whore in a brothel, behaving like... a whore in a brothel?

Sure some games like God of War ooze testosterone; despite that, the female goddesses are represented as they should be according to ancient Greek mythology. Should we criticize ancient Greeks for making the goddess of love, erotic? And even then, every male god is ripped to pieces. Have you forgotten how Kratos

Spoiler

rips the head of Helios and is using it as a lamp for the rest of the game?

Movies and books are separated in different categories for a reason, nobody can please everyone at the same time. Why should games be any different?

While you are correct that a healthy balance would be fine, we have nowhere near anything resembling one in video games. If you would close your eyes and imagine a giant balance scale with strong or interesting female characters on the left and the weak or uninteresting on the other end, the left side would be lifted up high enough to re-enact the A Whole New World scene from Aladdin. We

Plus, aren't most "bad guys" in games male, you know the ones you have to kill repeatedly in order to progress in games like Uncharted, or The Last of Us (games i really enjoyed playing). Isn't it a bit ironic to complain about that one odd whore in that part of one segment of a game when you have to spent most of the time blowing heads of male "bad guys" in the very same game?

I think this is a fair point, and I would say this is ultimately part of the goal of equal representation. Adding generic female "goons" or "thugs" is a touchy subject for developers, as it is very difficult for many to not connect the dots between fighting virtual women and real world violence against women. You'll see that even in very stylised games, such as the LEGO ones, they don't really want to go there. Maybe when the general level of representation has been improved we can take some more steps in this regard. After all, this would be just another way to diversify the gender.

*edit*
I see quite a few people responded to you in rather close succession. I hope it doesn't come off as a dog-piling.

 

[Clukos]

The whole "background decoration" complaint is that while the male characters who get violently treated are almost universally a.)fighting back against the player or b.)as she showed in the video, at least fighting back against their attacker, the women being used to add "this person/area is evil" flavor to the game are pretty universally just victims. Objectified because they are defined by what is being done to them, not anything they themselves are doing

This is commonplace in movies, books and tv shows as well though. And in games like the Witcher which is placed in a medieval setting it's historically accurate to depict some females as victims(witch hunting and such). As well with other games/movies/books etc. that are set during a historical period.

Obviously this can be toned down in modern games.

The difference is tone. Nothing is wrong with having a female or male villain. Them being killed by the hero is not the point. The point is the tone. The villain and hero are on equal standing in the games you mentioned. Both use their strength and skills to fight against you. When Anita references things like the prostitutes in AssCreed or the beaten women in Watch_Dogs the tone is completely different. They are either dressed in a provocative way or the reason why they are being killed somehow references their sexuality or use as an object by the male offender. The tone makes it out that they are objects to be used or killed to define who the male character is.

While i agree this can be problematic, especially in games like Watch Dogs, i believe gamers should be given a choice. Killing a female/male pedestrian should have consequences, if you remove that choice then it becomes a whole another issue.

 

[V_Arnold]

This is commonplace in movies, books and tv shows as well though. And in games like the Witcher which is placed in a medieval setting it's historically accurate to depict some females as victims(witch hunting and such). As well with other games/movies/books etc. that are set during a historical period.

Obviously this can be toned down in modern games.

This also have been adressed in the video as well. History is important when it comes to raping females or just portraying them as largely helpless, but it is okay to have magic users left and right? The presence of spells (intellect-based power) just demolishes that argument.

If anything, Hermione's character alone would tell us that that if magic were real in a literal sense, women would mostly be better at it, or just as good as males. Which means no more usual power structures as traditional middle age crap. But that takes imagination, thought, tact, all that jazz.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is commonplace in movies, books and tv shows as well though. And in games like the Witcher which is placed in a medieval setting it's historically accurate to depict some females as victims(witch hunting and such). As well with other games/movies/books etc. that are set during a historical period.

Obviously this can be toned down in modern games.

Oh those mediums aren't immune to criticism, but there's nothing wrong with picking one to focus on. A film critic doesn't need to also discuss literature and games.

The problem with "historically accurate" is that the games are already historically inaccurate. Hell, you used the Witcher, which isn't historically accurate to anything, its just evocative of a historical period, but its riddled with deviations from actual historical society. And since its not a 100% accurate recreation of history we can be critical of what the developers chose to include. Why was one of the things that they decided would be "historically evocative" abuse of women?

 

[frequency]

Why are only women subject to historical accuracy?

Since when is Magic White Haired Monster Hunting Sword Man historically accurate?

 

[balohna]

The No More Heroes 2 clip seemed so fucked up. I know it's an over-the-top, ridiculous game but butchering two women for a presumed cheap laugh is kind of disturbing.

 

[Htown]

The No More Heroes 2 clip seemed so fucked up. I know it's an over-the-top, ridiculous game but butchering two women for a presumed cheap laugh is kind of disturbing.

yeah, that bothered me when I played it

 

[The Technomancer]

The No More Heroes 2 clip seemed so fucked up. I know it's an over-the-top, ridiculous game but butchering two women for a presumed cheap laugh is kind of disturbing.

Yeah it bothered me when I saw it in game as well. I really enjoy the NMH games for their general absurdity, but the gratuitousness of it got to me

 

[Clukos]

Oh those mediums aren't immune to criticism, but there's nothing wrong with picking one to focus on. A film critic doesn't need to also discuss literature and games.

The problem with "historically accurate" is that the games are already historically inaccurate. Hell, you used the Witcher, which isn't historically accurate to anything, its just evocative of a historical period, but its riddled with deviations from actual historical society. And since its not a 100% accurate recreation of history we can be critical of what the developers chose to include. Why was one of the things that they decided would be "historically evocative" abuse of women?

By historically accurate i didn't mean specific historical events, just the accuracy of the setting. During that time there was no equality, women were being hunted and abused for false accusations. Representing that in a game set during the medieval period isn't inaccurate. I think balance is the key word. The Witcher includes a fair share of strong females which most of the time end up saving the main character from certain death.

 

[Htown]

By historically accurate i didn't mean specific historical events, just the accuracy of the setting. During that time there was no equality, women were being hunted and abused for false accusations. Representing that in a game set during the medieval period isn't inaccurate. I think balance is the key word. The Witcher includes a fair share of strong females which most of the time end up saving the main character from certain death.

the Witcher isn't set during anything but a fantasy time period, in a fantasy world

historical accuracy is whatever the developers (or to some extent, the writer of the books) say it is

 

[APF]

And in games like the Witcher which is placed in a medieval setting it's historically accurate [...]

The Witcher is basically a modern / adult / gritty take on classic fairy tales. It does not make sense to talk about historical accuracy in its world since it's not trying to be historically accurate.

 

[Clukos]

the Witcher isn't set during anything but a fantasy time period, in a fantasy world

historical accuracy is whatever the developers (or to some extent, the writer of the books) says it is

Let me rephrase, fantasy medieval setting. What i said doesn't really change much. I should've used RDR, would be a better example for what i was going for but i think you get where i am coming from.

 

[The Technomancer]

By historically accurate i didn't mean specific historical events, just the accuracy of the setting. During that time there was no equality, women were being hunted and abused for false accusations. Representing that in a game set during the medieval period isn't inaccurate. I think balance is the key word. The Witcher includes a fair share of strong females which most of the time end up saving the main character from certain death.

But why did they say, choose to represent that aspect of medieval culture and not any of the other things that they didn't? Thats another one of her points about how so often having "and women are abused to show how shitty things are" is kind of a box checked in terms of setting building

 

[V_Arnold]

In Wheel of Time, man are not dominant.
Yeah, they are fighters, but because the male sorcerers are hunted down, the females took in almost all key positions, and as them being advisors to rulers, female rulers were harder to persuade/abuse/dethrone.

There are more female leaders in that world than males.