Yeah, it is an interesting contradiction. These are all still unproven things, but if even half this stuff is true, it's rough. It's because now indie is a brand. And it's actually less about freedom than about cutthroat competition to get noticed, and to not fail financially, since it's all on you to do your own PR, marketing and networking. Established developers just let the publisher handle all that for them after they get a contract. I think you're seeing a lot of amateurs and people without resources fiercely competing for a small number of spots, and it gets ugly.
Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
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Gsak
Member
Yet I see PR companies and indie scene-related companies growing every day. If we came to the point where those are privileges for some, but not all Indie devs, then the indie scene is becoming a badly-mutated clone of the very industry it's trying to supposedly stand up to.
MHWilliams
Member
The IGF stuff isn't new.
http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/01/conflicts-of-interest-in-the-igf/
http://nightmaremode.thegamerstrust...nd-human-judges-an-interview-with-jenn-frank/
http://www.unwinnable.com/2012/02/23/the-igf-is-just-fine-youre-the-problem/#.VAaTmFVdVUU
http://therottingcartridge.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/whats-wrong-with-the-igf/
More on that story above. More on the judges process itself.
Anyone can submit their game to the IGF regardless, as long as they pay the fee.
http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/01/conflicts-of-interest-in-the-igf/
http://nightmaremode.thegamerstrust...nd-human-judges-an-interview-with-jenn-frank/
http://www.unwinnable.com/2012/02/23/the-igf-is-just-fine-youre-the-problem/#.VAaTmFVdVUU
http://therottingcartridge.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/whats-wrong-with-the-igf/
More on that story above. More on the judges process itself.
Anyone can submit their game to the IGF regardless, as long as they pay the fee.
CambriaRising
Member
^ he's right. This isn't new. I looked into this a bit today and found some of the same articles. It's all kinda shady. I had no idea before any of this.
Yeah me neither. News to me for sure.
Gsak
Member
Well then, since we all know members of the press are on GAF, how about them investigating this and have a deeper look?
Also, a site called "Niche Gamer" is offering a line of communication to indie devs who want to speak anonymously about the corruption. This is about to get even more interesting.
Oh, and here's a relative read, regarding journalism and corruption: http://xgamejournalist.wordpress.com/2014/09/02/yet-another-zoe-and-gamergate-post/
That is a much wiser way to approach this if you have suspicions like this dev said he did. Go talk to a journalist and say your piece or write your own thing about it or whatever. Don't toss your support behind a video full of as much problematic stuff as the one we've been discussing.
http://therottingcartridge.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/whats-wrong-with-the-igf/
Read the comments:
Edit: This is kind of off topic, so I'll leave it at that.
Read the comments:
Edit: This is kind of off topic, so I'll leave it at that.
JesseEwiak
Member
"There is now proof that if you want financial support and exposure, youre going to have to be passed around to a group of men and women like a fucktoy to get any margin of success."
And people wonder why, despite there being no proof of Zoe being a "fucktoy" to the vast majority of the people praising her game, this is what the guy pulls out of the story.
Wait a minute. Let's grant that the video is possibly not misogynistic and that it doesn't sound like unhinged conspiracy theorizing. Let's grant that a reasonable person can think that the video raises important questions. Let's grant that this guy's livelihood has been seriously threatened as a result of his talking about the video in a favorable way. Hell, let's go all the way and suppose that IGF awards are fixed because that one guy with the beard gets to appoint all the judges and the woman he's sleeping with is able to get him to pick judges who she knows will pick the games she wants to win (and I guess she's picking games on the basis of who hires her company and also she sleeps with some of them - I think I've captured the important points but I only watched the video once and I had no idea what IGF was).
Even so, nobody's making anybody choose a side here. Nobody's trying to find out what people think in order to gang up on people who disagree with the party line. There's no interference with people who are "simply making games". Worst-case, indie devs avoid being "ganged up on" if they stick to "simply making games". Some people are doing political stuff on the side, but so what? Live and let live. Hell, there's always going to be political stuff surrounding awards, if those awards matter at all, so the only way to really be just about the games is going to be to opt out of politics and take the hit.
Now, to be clear, if the video did not in fact appear to be unhinged and misogynistic conspiracy theorizing, there'd be room to complain about this sort of reaction. But it just doesn't make sense to complain that there's no room in the indie gaming scene for people who are "just about the games", since it doesn't seem like anyone was going after this guy until he decided to participate in the political conversation.
Personally no, I don't think someone getting revelations about "corruption in the scene" from a conspiracy theory video on YouTube knows more than we do about corruption in the scene.
Presumably he knows less than the people who made the video, or the things in the video would be either old news to him or something he could disprove. He wouldn't need the YouTube video if he had insider information.
Do industry devs get all their information on games from advertisements?
Having scenes in an art movemebt, this time being indie games, where there's a clique isn't a conspiracy it's just a clique. Artistry has always been filled with people jerking off the same people. Look at Film or Music.
wonderdung
Member
For the same reason Anita should be able to post videos without getting harassed.
I think the only harassing people take issue with Anita are death threats/violence threats... At least I think so. Also, if you choose to fight on twitter, the echo chamber that it is, it's hard to feel sympathy, because you should know better. I understand wanting to disagree with something, but making sure your source isn't...compromised with integrity is probably a good place to start.
And while I disagree the video shows misogyny(although I guess using this to the point of losing its meaning is healthy), it definitely seems pretty sexist with a large portion of that video, specifically, focusing on the sex part, over and over and over and over, to the point that the one good point he had(getting pointed out by stuff from 2012) was not even 3rd on his list of things to point out. The fact that the video didnt start with the potential nepotism, just tells you they are more interested in the TMZ drama then actual nepotism(maybe they wanted clicks, I'm not sure).
wonderdung
Member
It's possible, I just see a double standard being played out. If you're on the "right side" and you say something controversial, it's a big deal when you receive aggressive criticism. If you're on the "wrong side" and say something controversial, you need to be shouted down as quickly as possible and possibly lose your job.
It'd be nice if we could just admit that the correct response to controversy is debate rather than rage.
Pointing out a double standard is fruitless. If what you are saying is true, all that means is you need to be even more careful with how you express criticism. If you honestly feel this is the case, use this as a point to refine criticism, and encourage those who bring up points that hurt the argument, encourage them to knock it off. If there really is a double standard then giving that double standard less ammo, would probably help a whole ton.
But, again, while death threats and accusations of stupidity are both "aggressive criticism", one is a much bigger deal than the other.
There's also no one to fire, here. FWIW, I agree that it's generally important to keep in mind that people who disagree with you have a right to earn a living, etc. I wasn't a fan of the campaign to get Brandon Eich to step down at Mozilla. But nobody should have a problem with someone choosing to distance themselves personally from someone who offends them, although of course what they find offensive may be problematic (racists find offensive things that people ought not find offensive, for example).
The problem with a lot of modern work, including in indie gaming, is that the personal is professional. Networks of friends and friendly acquaintances are a large part of succeeding, you're "selling yourself", etc. And so it helps to remain on personally good terms with people in order to do as well as possible professionally. But it's uncontroversial that it's the personal side of things which sets the rules of conduct for this sort of work - celebrities have had to deal with this forever, and it's just been understood that part of their job is being well-liked as people by their fans.
Squidofman
Member
I've never seen more fucks given about the IGF awards.
Maybe they're clean. Maybe there's some iffy business going on. Maybe it's rotten to the core.
Some sites may investigate. Other sites may assume that it's not worth the time/effort given the projected interest in the story outside of the people who actively take part in message board posts about video game journalism.
I suspect the only people genuinely screaming out about the IGF are those who also work under the assumption there's some kind of centralised indie "scene" in the first place, with leaders and membership cards and a secret hideout. Which there's not.
Know how most sites write about indie games? Because indie devs send them trailers/code, the games are played and those that are cool get written about. I know I couldn't give two shits how many IGF nominations a game got, nor do I think most readers who just want to check out a cool video game.
Maybe they're clean. Maybe there's some iffy business going on. Maybe it's rotten to the core.
Some sites may investigate. Other sites may assume that it's not worth the time/effort given the projected interest in the story outside of the people who actively take part in message board posts about video game journalism.
I suspect the only people genuinely screaming out about the IGF are those who also work under the assumption there's some kind of centralised indie "scene" in the first place, with leaders and membership cards and a secret hideout. Which there's not.
Know how most sites write about indie games? Because indie devs send them trailers/code, the games are played and those that are cool get written about. I know I couldn't give two shits how many IGF nominations a game got, nor do I think most readers who just want to check out a cool video game.
Gsak
Member
By the way, here's a charming tweet from a video game producer who says he worked on Call Of Duty: https://twitter.com/alexlifschitz/status/506333197018624000
wonderdung
Member
Yes, of course death threats are higher severity. But the "victim blaming" is a bit strong here. Paraphrasing just in the last two pages I've seen multiple posts along the lines of "be prepared for the consequences when you tweet something controversial." I'm just guessing but it seems like that same sentiment would be a really bad move to post in a Sarkessian thread.
Highly agree that the mix of personal and professional in indie games can cause unique problems. It might be just me but I really have much higher respect for the people plodding along without making themselves the brand and just letting their work speak for itself. They probably aren't rolling in money but there's a lot of very solid indie work out there going under the radar because their creators prefer to make games over drama.
FWIW I checked the guy's twitter and he's in the process of trying to turn his 15 minutes into a revenue stream, which is a bit sad. I don't want him to go hungry or face serious career consequences for expressing his opinion, but it's a little shady at this point.
Publisher-side QA on World at War according to his Linkedin.
TaroYamada
Member
I'm largely pro-gamergate, I think, I've felt rather unwelcome on most gaming sites and on NeoGAF (though I still think there's tons of great people here) since the Anita stuff started taking off. I find her disingenuous and disagree with a lot of what she has to say, how she presents her content, etc. I've long thought of her as this industry's current Jack Thompson variant, albeit beating a different ideological drum. It's made me wonder if Jack Thompson (or somebody with the same anti-video game violence sentiment) had started later and promoted himself differently, if he would have had more success in his anti-violence campaigns? Especially after journos started writing about God of War/Tomb Raider/Assassin's Creed and the violence in those respective series. I also think even attempting to have a civil disagreement about her content and with those who support her (journalists, amongst others) is rather difficult these days. Furthermore, I don't feel the sides are held to the same standard, on NeoGAF or elsewhere throughout the gaming industry. I'm glad GamerGate has taken off given a large part of it seems to be about how the press doesn't respect its audience and I sympathize with that as somebody who has felt it.
Another element with a lot of this that's bothered me, is way back when I first began seeing it on GAF I said I supported more games like Beyond Good and Evil, Mirror's Edge and Portal which I felt were games with good female leads. I also said such games should be requested in addition to already existing content and that games, particularly from Japanese developers, shouldn't be attacked nor should their audiences be demonized. Yet that's exactly what happened with a lot of that content, press writing about how Dragon's Crown was for 14 year old boys and actually deducting from their review scores on that basis. Some defended it but the game didn't lie about its art direction. It hid nothing, so having a member of your staff review content that they will so clearly have a bias against is no different than running CinemaBlend and shoving somebody who hates violence in media on the review of the latest horror film. It's entirely disingenuous, disrespectful to the artists who created the content and soapboxing for your own political views in favor of actually informing the audience who would be interested.
For all the discussion on diversity I think the major press figures ignore one facet because it wouldn't benefit them in tearing down Kamitani, Kojima and other Japanese developers; diversity in their staff so far as political views are concerned.
Another element with a lot of this that's bothered me, is way back when I first began seeing it on GAF I said I supported more games like Beyond Good and Evil, Mirror's Edge and Portal which I felt were games with good female leads. I also said such games should be requested in addition to already existing content and that games, particularly from Japanese developers, shouldn't be attacked nor should their audiences be demonized. Yet that's exactly what happened with a lot of that content, press writing about how Dragon's Crown was for 14 year old boys and actually deducting from their review scores on that basis. Some defended it but the game didn't lie about its art direction. It hid nothing, so having a member of your staff review content that they will so clearly have a bias against is no different than running CinemaBlend and shoving somebody who hates violence in media on the review of the latest horror film. It's entirely disingenuous, disrespectful to the artists who created the content and soapboxing for your own political views in favor of actually informing the audience who would be interested.
For all the discussion on diversity I think the major press figures ignore one facet because it wouldn't benefit them in tearing down Kamitani, Kojima and other Japanese developers; diversity in their staff so far as political views are concerned.
Gsak
Member
You know what? I'm fucking done. This industry hates their damn audience. I am utterly disappointed and completely disillusioned. I really want to know if they are pushing their customers away. I wonder why their companies/advertisers are allowing them to speak that kind of shit.
Do they just want our money and then kick us out? What the fuck is it that they want? Why all this hate?
Squidofman
Member
Yeah, that's it. All this time you thought they were in it for the love and the money, when really, they're all doing it just to spite you.
Dude he is QA for World at War(assuming that is accurate), what kind of power do you think he has? That guy has as much to do with publishers and customers, as someone working at walmart having something to do with the standards and ethics of walmart. If you ignore him, it isnt like he is going to rise to power and be the next Rob Pardo...
Don't worry, all those concerned developers signed that statement about how we should all treat each other with respect and call out those who don't so I'm sure they'll be excoriating him in public any second now.
I was going to say something about QA people, then I remembered that I've worked with a number of QA folks who are talented, swell people.
Edit: His whole recent Twitter feed is like that. Seems like a cool guy.
bishopcruz
Member
So...
The #notyourshield tag is interesting.
The #notyourshield tag is interesting.
Gsak
Member
My point is that there's too much hate spilling from all sides. But I expected more out from the industry, since you know, we are the ones who made their living (this QA guy is not the only one from the gaming industry who acts like this). So fuck it, I quit. Let them do whatever they want.
All I know is, from now on I will be much, much more selective about which games I will be getting (and from whom). Needless to say I'll also change my vg sites visiting habits.
call_kotaku
Member
I think that's what has been frustrating for me with Anita and "feminism" in gaming, especially coming from being involved with it (although only tangentially) in academics. Feminism, "otherness", and similar forms of critique are important, and absolutely necessary, but this is where gaming as a relatively new audience and without a depth of criticism suffers, because it doesn't know how to conduct that critique.
Anita's critiques aren't good. They aren't very well presented, sometimes not particularly well-researched, often ineffective, and wouldn't pass muster in a more developed field like art criticism, film, or academia. Reading Camille Paglia or Edward Said, and hearing Judith Butler speak: all of that opened me to a ton of interesting new ideas and really made me reevaluate my views, and Anita's critiques are going to have a hard time reaching anyone that isn't already of the same disposition. However, requiring someone to be a critic on the level of a Butler or a Said to be able to start a conversation is in itself problematic, so here we are.
In a lot of ways, feminist critique in gaming is like smallpox spreading into America, and I don't mean that as negatively as it sounds. Nobody has built up any immunity to its effects and nobody is accustomed to engaging with it. Developers don't design games with it in mind, and self-identified gamers aren't familiar with discussing it. Descending directly into ad hominem, denying there even needs to be a conversation, redirecting the argument, etc. Basically, if someone says something you disagree with, don't start yelling and making death threats, or trying to make the conversation about whether or not someone is qualified to make a critique instead of the argument itself. However, by that same token, the controversy around someone doesn't immediately validate their argument, and it feels like some sort of reverse ad hominem when people bring up death threats or twitter tirades in order to confirm Anita's critique, because that's going to be as much a consequence of her presentation as the merits of her argument.
I think it's a good thing that her videos is increasing awareness of the issue and beginning the process to a productive conversation. Once everyone is finished yelling I think they'll understand the parameters of the argument and being able to engage with it, and eventually other critics who present more nuanced ideas and are better able to engage an audience will replace Anita at the forefront of the discussion.
I really wonder what the ratio of directly video game-related news and coverage is compared to op-ed pieces dealing with the social drama in the industry on most gaming sites is lately. I'm sure game coverage is still happening underneath it all, but it sure feels heavily weighted toward the later in terms of what is being pushed and what is garnering all of the attention.
I wonder if anyone is going to recognize the opportunity that seems to be growing now in serving the audience of gamers who don't want to wade through all of the drama and inflammatory headlines and intellectual brow beating, and have been feeling continuously disenfranchised by the press. I just want simple, unpretentious game coverage, where I don't have to feel depressed or frustrated whenever I open up the home page. I guess Neogaf and Giantbomb will continue to make do.
I wonder if anyone is going to recognize the opportunity that seems to be growing now in serving the audience of gamers who don't want to wade through all of the drama and inflammatory headlines and intellectual brow beating, and have been feeling continuously disenfranchised by the press. I just want simple, unpretentious game coverage, where I don't have to feel depressed or frustrated whenever I open up the home page. I guess Neogaf and Giantbomb will continue to make do.
Squidofman
Member
That's one word for it.
Petrae
Member
I'm there with you, and it's sad. While I understand that it's not everybody (#NotAllPress, #NotAllDevs, etc), the chasm between the industry and consumers has grown so wide and so deep that it's no longer worth it to search out the people who aren't being jerks.
These last few days have been eye-opening, to say the least.
Squidofman
Member
It's not hard to count them. I'd be surprised if it's over 3% of the content, and that's on the sites posting about it at all.
TaroYamada
Member
IrishNinja
Member
if you mean "interesting" like the embarrassing MRA crap adam baldwin has been on this whole time then yes...interesting
PrivateRyan
Member
I don't know why more people haven't taken this attitude from the start. Or maybe avoid Twitter altogether.
Some devs are jerks. Just like some journos are jerks. Just like some people are jerks.
I listen to a lot of house and dnb music and follow those peeps on Twitter and they're jerks too (some of them are notorious for it, @scubaofficial for example).
But it doesn't change the music I enjoy listening to, just like a few tweets doesn't change the games I enjoy playing. I certainly don't seek those tweets out and take them as a personal slight against me or my hobby. Why should I care? I don't.
And I certainly wouldn't take a tweet from someone in Q&A as anything more indicative than well, a tweet from someone in Q&A. Is that really what this thread has come to?
I'd imagine people notice them more because outside of industry's few great journalists and feature writers, most of the enthusiast press is boring, barely re-written press releases and blogspam (probably thanks to lopsided traffic numbers). Most outlets barely have one worthwhile read a week.
While I do think the indie dev/pr scene is too cliquey and cozy with some press, this is kinda the reason why I can't completely blame them. For years/decades the AAA landscape has been so completely controlled by publishers and marketeers, with very little access to the people who make the games outside of controlled junkets, that I imagine it must be alluring to finally get closer, untethered access to the scene you cover and the artists who belong to it.
Obviously the flip side of that is (which has been brought up by Kotaku), get too close to the scene or give it too much power and your critical, unbiased judgement can get called into question.
I'm not offended by any of the things that's been going on because I understand what the problems are. The jokes, mockery, and slander on gamers have nothing to do with me because they're aimed at the bigots, the trolls and the overall worst people in the community just generalized in a term everyone understands. Gamers. It's no different to those who do the same thing to bronies or the Sonic fandom or otaku. They're called out all the time because their communities have grown rampant with terrible people, and the good people never once tried to stop or acknowledge their dark side. They're generalized in the same way. We've mostly just sat here just letting things happen and hoping that ignoring things will make these trolls go away, but the reverse has happened.
I often make the parallel to the term otaku. Otaku is an incredibly negative term that some (mostly in the west) love to use more casually. If you watch anime then you should realize there are a ton of series that go out of their way to make fun of otaku or show the deep depressing and shameless side of the culture that's heavily prevalent. The industry doesn't seem to like otaku much either and many prominent figures have spoken out on the pandering to them. Many otaku often hate anything that Hayao Miyazaki has to say about the industry because it doesn't line up with their world views, same can be said about any prominent person who has different opinions or world views. And they hate feminists just as much as some of those gamers do and believe just the same that they are ruining the medium.
If you were in Japan, you'd never want to be found out as some otaku because it can be social suicide. I know plenty of people who don't associate with the labels in the anime industry because they don't match them. They have had eye-opening experiences but they still watch and read manga, some even speak and understand the language because of their hobby.
The perception of those labels are seen as bad inside and outside of the communities and often generalized. Sometimes new words might get created in these communities to separate the bad like weaboo, to call out the truly obsessed and shallow world views some people have that they truly believe that Japan is the best place on earth to live, western cartoons are trash and that Japan is the safe haven for anime fans/otaku.
Because of the explosion that has happened over these few weeks, it has actually been eye-opening for some because this side of gaming has finally been thrusted into their face and now they're forced to acknowledge its existence.
I often make the parallel to the term otaku. Otaku is an incredibly negative term that some (mostly in the west) love to use more casually. If you watch anime then you should realize there are a ton of series that go out of their way to make fun of otaku or show the deep depressing and shameless side of the culture that's heavily prevalent. The industry doesn't seem to like otaku much either and many prominent figures have spoken out on the pandering to them. Many otaku often hate anything that Hayao Miyazaki has to say about the industry because it doesn't line up with their world views, same can be said about any prominent person who has different opinions or world views. And they hate feminists just as much as some of those gamers do and believe just the same that they are ruining the medium.
If you were in Japan, you'd never want to be found out as some otaku because it can be social suicide. I know plenty of people who don't associate with the labels in the anime industry because they don't match them. They have had eye-opening experiences but they still watch and read manga, some even speak and understand the language because of their hobby.
The perception of those labels are seen as bad inside and outside of the communities and often generalized. Sometimes new words might get created in these communities to separate the bad like weaboo, to call out the truly obsessed and shallow world views some people have that they truly believe that Japan is the best place on earth to live, western cartoons are trash and that Japan is the safe haven for anime fans/otaku.
Because of the explosion that has happened over these few weeks, it has actually been eye-opening for some because this side of gaming has finally been thrusted into their face and now they're forced to acknowledge its existence.
TaroYamada
Member
Just saw this and agree, nice to see the rejection of a key counter argument. Not that "white and male" is a valid reason to discredit one's views.
Ronin Seraph
Neo Member
It's a little different when your'e a dev. Naturally you follow other devs / people in the industry you admire. Some of us use Twitter for networking in case we need to hire outside help, etc. It's not that we seek out the dumb shit that's being said, it just kinda appeared one day and now it won't go away.
Zaph said:
Only the indie devs that have "hit it big" in a way. Most of us don't give a shit about press and worry more about what the actual audience says.
This.
While i agree with a lot of arguments done on Gaf about the need for more diversity a lot of articles/comments from "Journalists" and Devs were quite eye opening for me and how they feel about core gamers.
The last few days i realized that i just dont give a fuck about this industry anymore.
Its a shame that a lot of good arguments made by Gafers and some Journalists (Jason Schreier) are just ignored by a majority of the media.
I think a lot of devs and "journalists" hurt their own argument by attacking gamers in the way they do on social media/their own sites.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
What? How? Why?
Do you get a note when you're career is over or how does he know after an hour?
Also, can I now just claim that it is a fact that he only said that to get attention? That's how this works, right?
No. Wrong gender.
Surely he will provide a list soon of all the indie devs and PR firms and publishers who have blackballed him because of this issue.
The guilty need to be outed!
I sure he'll deliver... *holds breath*
Why is it "MRA crap?" For some reason I expected better of you.
What would you call it?
What's the other one?
Do you have a problem with people of differing walks of life, cultures, different skin color and sexualities showing their love for video games?
That's not what #notyourshield is about though. Don't be obtuse.
I've sent his empolyer/company an email about his language and the way he treats costumer, if they want to be represented by such a person.
It seemed like he deleted that message because he realized that can hurt his work.
We can all agree that you did the right thing there. Hopefully Activision is transparent in their response to an employee of theirs being such a shithead.
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