Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread XV: Kübler-Ross Edition

Captainbojanglesiii said:
And Ice climbers, Ridley and Snake.
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ibfBrgfqJgLDfe.gif
 
superNESjoe said:
I'm not like a diehard competitive player, so don't take this the wrong way, but that's not really a great analogy. Competitive players want to compete on skill alone, and having any items, even the less crazy ones, show up is a random element. Bottom line is that the item can spawn at the most optimal time for one of the two players, giving a clear advantage that exists beyond definitive skill. In competitive Smash you know your character, and it's all about the dynamic between your character and your opponents.
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That's all fine and dandy if they want to compete without items, but dealing with items within the game is a skill too. My argument (and the argument of the article, hopefully you read it) is that something of value is lost when you eliminate nearly all unforeseen variables from competition. The point of the analogy wasn't to say that Basketball and Football have similar elements of randomness analogous to Smash's items; the point was to say that Smash's items (and ultimately tripping) are analogous to the infinitely greater number of variables that Football and Basketball players have to deal with.

To put it another way, Football teams that play more often in cold weather could have a greater advantage over teams that play more often in warm weather when they're playing a game during a snowstorm. Is that an unfair predicament? Sure, but you play through it. Dealing with unforeseen, impossible-to-predict situations is a skill too (-a good life skill in general), and to me its part of what makes any good sport more exciting. It's this drama that makes sports exciting- not simply the technical ability of the players.

Items are Smash's way of introducing those unforeseen elements into a genre that is theoretically driven only by elements fully under the player's control. As the article implies, Smash isn't a game that necessarily rewards aggression. It also rewards defense, and strategic withdrawals. Smash is the only fighting game where there is a reasonable ability to retreat from the fight and "reset" the match on your own terms on another part of the stage. That's drama.

When you introduce items to that equation, you make it even more interesting: "He's got the bat, what do I do now? Stall and wait for another item that will help me keep him from scoring the critical hit? Or do I try to make him miss, and try to knock it out of his hands?" That's more interesting to me than simply exploring the game's fighting engine to the nth degree. It allows for more strategy, and a more dynamic fight than is possible with the fighting engine alone.

On crowds: Okay, Smash players have to deal with crowds to some degree, but they don't typically have to play against a rowdy, home team crowd that surrounds them, waving signs, and cheering wildly only when their opponent scores a point. Its not exactly the same.
 
emb said:
It was a pretty vague blanket statement about Nintendo. No doubt it's not true in all cases.

But yeah, I'm curious. What's the deal with it? Some dark support conversations?
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More like:
Family incest and your parent units all get killed off. Essentially.
 
emb said:
It was a pretty vague blanket statement about Nintendo. No doubt it's not true in all cases.

But yeah, I'm curious. What's the deal with it? Some dark support conversations?
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Most FEs have dark themes or taboo content, especially earlier ones like rape, genocide, and incestual relationships hinted.

I can't say what the deal with FE4 is since that's a major plot point which would spoil it, however it's something that never occured in any other FE and it's my fave FE to boot

-Horizon- said:
image.php
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my first avatar quote :')
 
MagiusNecros said:
More like:
Family incest and your parent units all get killed off. Essentially.
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Yikes, that's pretty rough.
Josephl64 said:
Most FEs have dark themes or taboo content, especially earlier ones like rape, genocide, and incestual relationships hinted.

I can't say what the deal with FE4 is since that's a major plot point which would spoil it, however it's something that never occured in any other FE and it's my fave FE to boot
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Not too worried about spoilers, since Nintendo doesn't seem to want me to play FE2-6. :\

In the localized ones though, it seems like anything at least only is hinted at. I'd definitely take that over having it on screen in full effect.
 
Regulus Tera said:
Fair point.

The fuck is a Smash feel? Is it like Nintendo magic?
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An extremely well worded and well thought out argument, to be sure.

Feel, style, experience, theme, mise en scene, whatever you want to call it, there is a certain je ne sais quoi to Smash, as well as to a lot of Nintendo games. It would be weird to see Kratos in there, or Bayonetta, or Asura, or Goku (for different reasons, of course). Maybe it'd be easier if you tried to picture it in the reverse - what if Mario showed up in Bayonetta stomping on enemy heads, transforming into fire flower Mario and "It's-a-me"-ing all over the place. Wouldn't that seem just a little disjointed?

It might happen someday, it might happen with Smash 4 Wii U for all I know, but I wouldn't like it and it wouldn't feel right. Family friendly, whether you like it or not, has been one of the defining terms for Smash since its inception. Bayonetta is decidedly not family friendly.
 
GameGuru59 said:
That's all fine and dandy if they want to compete without items, but dealing with items within the game is a skill too. My argument (and the argument of the article, hopefully you read it) is that something of value is lost when you eliminate nearly all unforeseen variables from competition. The point of the analogy wasn't to say that Basketball and Football have similar elements of randomness analogous to Smash's items; the point was to say that Smash's items (and ultimately tripping) are analogous to the infinitely greater number of variables that Football and Basketball players have to deal with.

To put it another way, Football teams that play more often in cold weather could have a greater advantage over teams that play more often in warm weather when they're playing a game during a snowstorm. Is that an unfair predicament? Sure, but you play through it. Dealing with unforeseen, impossible-to-predict situations is a skill too (-a good life skill in general), and to me its part of what makes any good sport more exciting. It's this drama that makes sports exciting- not simply the technical ability of the players.

Items are Smash's way of introducing those unforeseen elements into a genre that is theoretically driven only by elements fully under the player's control. As the article implies, Smash isn't a game that necessarily rewards aggression. It also rewards defense, and strategic withdrawals. Smash is the only fighting game where there is a reasonable ability to retreat from the fight and "reset" the match on your own terms on another part of the stage. That's drama.

When you introduce items to that equation, you make it even more interesting: "He's got the bat, what do I do now? Stall and wait for another item that will help me keep him from scoring the critical hit? Or do I try to make him miss, and try to knock it out of his hands?" That's more interesting to me than simply exploring the game's fighting engine to the nth degree. It allows for more strategy, and a more dynamic fight than is possible with the fighting engine alone.

On crowds: Okay, Smash players have to deal with crowds to some degree, but they don't typically have to play against a rowdy, home team crowd that surrounds them, waving signs, and cheering wildly only when their opponent scores a point. Its not exactly the same.
Click to expand...

The thing is, it doesn't really work that way. The person with the homerun bat is much more likely to throw it as a projectile than try to use its slow attack for a chance at OHKOing. In fact, practically every item in every Smash game is better to throw as a projectile than it is to actually use it for its intended purpose (except maybe the Fan item in Brawl?) So, there really isn't any added strategy element by introducing an item like the HomeRun Bat because it isn't used for its intended purpose -- because it's too committal in a game where committing to certain actions is bad. You don't make as much of a commitment to throw the bat and the reward for throwing it is arguably even greater because of its strong knockback and high damage when thrown therefore it's an easy decision to just throw the bat when the opponent is open.

Then you have to consider the fact that item spawns are inherently random and because of that randomness there's no way to prepare for what might spawn in the middle of a match. Where they spawn, what item spawns, when, etc are not predictable in any Smash game and is often the main reason why they are banned -- the secondary reasoning is because they simply aren't balanced for competition in mind. They are balanced for fun, they are purposefully made to be chaotic and do high damage, high knockback. Therefore, it's not interesting to test those skills with items because of the randomness and how they aren't interesting to begin with -- they're either a free KO, a projectile that you can throw a number of times with high knockback, a heal certain %, or explode inducing high knockback.

I could go on but here's a good video example of why items are banned/were banned in Melee and illustrates the main, core issue (random item spawns): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EFx0-Zkn54

Of course, they fixed the one issue in that video with container items with explosives by separating them in item switch in Brawl and allowing you to turn them off but the rest of the items were still either stupidly OP or don't actually offer anything interesting to competitive play because of how they are designed. The argument that items would add an interesting layer to Smash only works if the items were actually made for that environment -- but they're not.

Just wanted to clarify that the way items are currently designed don't work under a more serious competitive setting like people tend to optimistically think they would.
 
Scooter155 said:
An extremely well worded and well thought out argument, to be sure.

Feel, style, experience, theme, mise en scene, whatever you want to call it, there is a certain je ne sais quoi to Smash, as well as to a lot of Nintendo games. It would be weird to see Kratos in there, or Bayonetta, or Asura, or Goku (for different reasons, of course). Maybe it'd be easier if you tried to picture it in the reverse - what if Mario showed up in Bayonetta stomping on enemy heads, transforming into fire flower Mario and "It's-a-me"-ing all over the place. Wouldn't that seem just a little disjointed?

It might happen someday, it might happen with Smash 4 Wii U for all I know, but I wouldn't like it and it wouldn't feel right. Family friendly, whether you like it or not, has been one of the defining terms for Smash since its inception. Bayonetta is decidedly not family friendly.
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So, family friendliness. Just asking because I see that term thrown around here all the time and nobody ever clarifies it.
 
Loco4Coco said:
I think Bayonetta tends to give people different type of feelings. She's going to be in the game.
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I hope it's clear that I'm not against people liking Bayonetta... or Bayonetta existing, or whatever. I'm sure some people like it for good reasons and some people like it for gross reasons, and I just don't care. All I'm saying is the character doesn't fit with Smash.

It's fine to hope, but how could you possibly know that she's in the game?
 
I'm not really against anybody who gets into Smash. I'm excited for newcomers and also have my preference but no matter Sakurai puts in there I really don't object and basically agree with his decisions regarding the roster.

As for Bayonetta, while I don't mind having her in this Smash because I think she's a very unique character (I can't think of any female video game character that can be similar to her), there are 2 good reasons why her inclusion has a very low chance:

- She's a relatively new character in a relatively new franchise, and;
- She's third party.

I know some might say "b-b-but Shulk...!" but he's first party. It's an already available tool at Sakurai's disposal without the need to purchase. No legal/licensing complications, whatsoever.

Looking at how Sakurai chooses third party characters, you can see how history-heavy the guest characters are. If Bayonetta was a first party game several years ago, I'm sure she has a better chance. But being a pretty young franchise plus being a newcomer on a Nintendo console plus being owned by Sega pretty much hurts her chances. W101 had a better chance than Bayonetta in having a playable rep but no W101 rep is playable at this iteration of Smash.

But I'm not totally eliminating her chances. After all, Platinum and Nintendo have some pretty tight bond, and Kamiya has some good relationship with developers like Miyamoto and Sakurai, so you never know.
 
HiroTSK5 said:
Would it help if she was dressed like Peach?

Bayonetta_WiiU_CharacterArt_E32014_003.jpg
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What if every character just had an alt that was Bayonetta dressed as them?

Scooter155 said:
An extremely well worded and well thought out argument, to be sure.

Feel, style, experience, theme, mise en scene, whatever you want to call it, there is a certain je ne sais quoi to Smash, as well as to a lot of Nintendo games. It would be weird to see Kratos in there, or Bayonetta, or Asura, or Goku (for different reasons, of course). Maybe it'd be easier if you tried to picture it in the reverse - what if Mario showed up in Bayonetta stomping on enemy heads, transforming into fire flower Mario and "It's-a-me"-ing all over the place. Wouldn't that seem just a little disjointed?

It might happen someday, it might happen with Smash 4 Wii U for all I know, but I wouldn't like it and it wouldn't feel right. Family friendly, whether you like it or not, has been one of the defining terms for Smash since its inception. Bayonetta is decidedly not family friendly.
Click to expand...

I think what what you're talking about if how Bayonetta isn't a Nintendo character nor are her games huge. Megaman makes a good Smash character because he's iconic with the NES era. Sonic and Pac-Man are both huge video game mascots, Snake is also but not to as big an extent as those two.

Bayonetta has two games, one unreleased. and she isn't a Nintendo character other than the second game having publishing help from Nintendo.

Despite all that I still think she'd be a interesting character. I just understand where you're coming from.
 
ffdgh said:
We got a wonder red and a
ugly
rayman trophy. She may have a chance.
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I feel like they would have had to show her trophy in that ESRB ratings vid if she were featured in the game in any capacity.

PadWarrior said:
I wonder if they have a limited amount.
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The JP campaign says "everyone who registers both games--without exception--will receive the soundtrack selection CDs," so I can imagine the US side will follow through.
 
It's been years since I last watched Donkey Kong Country the animated series.

...

Why is everyone move like they're dancing in the episodes I watched? Also I must say Candy looks way better here.
 
Revven said:
The thing is, it doesn't really work that way. The person with the homerun bat is much more likely to throw it as a projectile than try to use its slow attack for a chance at OHKOing. In fact, practically every item in every Smash game is better to throw as a projectile than it is to actually use it for its intended purpose (except maybe the Fan item in Brawl?) So, there really isn't any added strategy element by introducing an item like the HomeRun Bat because it isn't used for its intended purpose -- because it's too committal in a game where committing to certain actions is bad. You don't make as much of a commitment to throw the bat and the reward for throwing it is arguably even greater because of its strong knockback and high damage when thrown therefore it's an easy decision to just throw the bat when the opponent is open.

Then you have to consider the fact that item spawns are inherently random and because of that randomness there's no way to prepare for what might spawn in the middle of a match. Where they spawn, what item spawns, when, etc are not predictable in any Smash game and is often the main reason why they are banned -- the secondary reasoning is because they simply aren't balanced for competition in mind. They are balanced for fun, they are purposefully made to be chaotic and do high damage, high knockback. Therefore, it's not interesting to test those skills with items because of the randomness and how they aren't interesting to begin with -- they're either a free KO, a projectile that you can throw a number of times with high knockback, a heal certain %, or explode inducing high knockback.

I could go on but here's a good video example of why items are banned/were banned in Melee and illustrates the main, core issue (random item spawns): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EFx0-Zkn54

Of course, they fixed the one issue in that video with container items with explosives by separating them in item switch in Brawl and allowing you to turn them off but the rest of the items were still either stupidly OP or don't actually offer anything interesting to competitive play because of how they are designed. The argument that items would add an interesting layer to Smash only works if the items were actually made for that environment -- but they're not.

Just wanted to clarify that the way items are currently designed don't work under a more serious competitive setting like people tend to optimistically think they would.
Click to expand...

Hmm, yes, yes, I see, well said sir.

But you see, the bat is fun.
 
Molemitts said:
What if every character just had an alt that was Bayonetta dressed as them?



I think what what you're talking about if how Bayonetta isn't a Nintendo character nor are her games huge. Megaman makes a good Smash character because he's iconic with the NES era. Sonic and Pac-Man are both huge video game mascots, Snake is also but not to as big an extent as those two.

Bayonetta has two games, one unreleased. and she isn't a Nintendo character other than the second game having publishing help from Nintendo.

Despite all that I still think she'd be a interesting character. I just understand where you're coming from.
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Eh, that's a little bit of it but she's also way too sexualized. I'm bummed out by Zero Suit Samus too - though more by the photos Sakurai's choosing to put out than by her mere existence - but that's super tame compared to Bayo.
 
Masked Man said:
I feel like they would have had to show her trophy in that ESRB ratings vid if she were featured in the game in any capacity.



The JP campaign says "everyone who registers both games--without exception--will receive the soundtrack selection CDs," so I can imagine the US side will follow through.
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Awesome thanks!
 
I could see Bayonetta as an assist trophy.

Wonderful 101 is represented as a standard trophy (Wonder Red), and it is also a Platinum IP. Bayonetta is definitely a more well-known title/character, needs some sort of extra marketing (in the US, Bayonetta is only releasing 2-3 weeks later than Smash 3DS), and was "saved" thanks to Nintendo in general.

As much as I'd love her to be playable, I don't see it happening. She would fit in like Snake did - a bit confusing at first, but I imagine her moveset would leave her unique enough to be recognized firmly amongst the cast, as Snake was with Brawl.

I guess we'll find out tonight.
 
Neiteio said:
I adore Dedenne! <3 But when was this posted??
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The same week Waluigi was deconfirmed.

It sucks, because I thought Dedenne would've been cute to have in the game as a new Pichu. Even made a move-set for him where he gathered static electricity like Plasma Kirby to power up his electrical attacks.
 
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