I had a rare encounter with a racist today.

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My grandparents say oriental and it drives me crazy. They're from a far different point in time though, so I let it slide. It does bother me though, and I'm not of Asian decent at all. I think "china man" would be really bad though lol.
 
hipbabboom said:
He was made aware of it and he refused to acknowledge it. At the very least, he was aware he was being offensive and preferred the comfort of his tradition over correcting himself. Hell, Butter Lady used the same defense when called out for saying the word nigger so OP is on point.
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It all depends on the person really. When dealing with emotion the biggest mistake people make is misreading an emotion based on their own assumption of what that emotion means in that given context*. It can be true that underneath that emotion of anger shown when confronted was racist context, however it can be equally true that he was offended being called a racist and was simply trying to defend himself, and with an emotion like anger a trigger like that is automatic, the emotion takes over and people lose the ability to actually retrieve information from the brain that could have given a better outcome, information such as logic, reasoning, sympathy and empathy. It's known as a refractory period.

If the man had shown any anger, disgust or contempt before being confronted I would be inclined to believe that his intentions were racist, otherwise we'll never really know because we weren't there.

*I've based all of this on Paul Ekman's work which i'm currently studying. It's referred to as Othellos mistake, where Othello killed his wife when she showed intense fear after being confronted with adultery. Othello used her fear as conformation to her crime, even though she didn't do it.
Whatever you assume about a particular emotion, the opposite can also be true in a lot of cases, usually you would need more information to find out the truth.
 
SapientWolf said:
Are you kidding me? Those are the actual words you said? It's not even close. You see Oriental noodles at the grocery store but they're not gonna be selling nigger rice. Gotdamn OP. I think you ended up saying something far more offensive than the other guy did.
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The OP isn't saying oriental is as bad as the N word. She's saying that the rational he used i.e. "It's not offensive because I grew up with it" is one commonly used by racists to defended racist terminology, which is absolutely true.
 
The way I understand it, the term oriental is offensive because the US' immigration policy (between 192x and 1965) was pretty draconian.

There was a strict quota system implemented, based on census data. Immigration was limited to 2 or 3% of each nationality that resided in the US at the time of the latest census.

But there was also an exclusion for Asians. That meant that Asians were banned from immigrating to US period.

I believe this policy was implemented by referring to all asians as "orientals." Census forms and immigration forms lumped asians together as orientals. Checking off the "oriental" box on an american immigration form (between 192x and 1965) basically meant you were barred from the US.

The word oriental effectively meant you were not and could not be an American.

So, yeah, I can definitely understand why an american-asian would have a problem being called "oriental."
 
ISOM said:
It's not racist per say but it's an outdated term that many don't like being referred to as. It's not immediately racist if the other person didn't know that someone doesn't like to be referred that way but if they keep stressing the point that they are right and it must be their way then it can go into racist territory. Well, that's my opinion on it anyway.
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In 10 or 20 years, referring to someone as Asian will probably be outdated and somebody will be making a post on Neogaf 3.0 about a racist dad calling them Asian who pulled up this thread on his phone to try to prove it's not racist.
 
oneils said:
The way I understand it, the term oriental is offensive because the US' immigration policy (before 1965) was pretty draconian.

There was a strict quota system implemented, based on census data. Immigration was limited to 2 or 3% of each nationality that resided in the US at the time of the latest census.

But there was also an exclusion for Asians. That meant that Asians were banned from immigrating to US period.

I believe this policy was implemented by referring to all asians as "orientals." Census forms and immigration forms lumped asians together as orientals. Checking off the "oriental" box on an american immigration form (before 1965) basically meant you were barred from the US.

The word oriental effectively meant you were not and could not be an American.

So, yeah, I can definitely understand why an american-asian would have a problem being called "oriental."
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Huh. That's actually quite informative! Thanks!
 
Old dude was was being a stubborn idiot, but there was no need to react how you did OP. I was fine with everything until the "that's the excuse racists use when they use the word nigger." line, which is needlessly confrontational given the situation you were in.

I don't really think you'll care much for my post, seeing as you've ignored others saying similar things, but while you were right to be offended and to also be annoyed at the man's reactions, I don't see the need to call him a racist to his face (And yes, comparing him to racists in the way you did is implicitly calling him a racist). Next time just excuse yourself from the conversation like you ended up doing without getting agitated.
 
I'm sorry, a bit off topic, but this reminded me of a funny story:

My grandfather always called this area near his house in MA, "Oriental Heights". I thought that was the name of the place. I was young and racism wasn't a thing. This area came up in conversation a couple years later for some reason, I called it Oriental Heights and the dude gave me a very odd look. Keep in mind this area is heavily populated with Asians, and is known for it.

Turns out it's actually called "Orient Heights".

Jesus, gramps. Really? Lol, crazy old coot.
 
Eh, he sounds like a guy who doesn't know the connotation of the word he's using and got defensive when you called him out on it. Suggesting that someone is racist is a pretty heavy-handed accusation if it's not accurate. It's sort of like calling them human scum. Basically what I'm trying to say is that ignorance and racism are not the same thing. They often go hand in hand, but they are not equivalent. That being said, dude could be a racist, idk.
 
Nephtis said:
My point that saying "It's a word I grew up with" is a perfectly acceptable reason. The stigma of the word seems to be a rather recent thing (as in, within a few decades), and the entire world (the world doesn't revolve around the US -- shocking, I know) uses it to this day and it's not seen as a derogatory or racist word at all.

The guy brought up the definition of the word, which does back him up in that it's a word used for that cluster of countries. His more pressing priority was to clarify that he isn't a racist (which I seriously doubt he is) by utilizing that resource, which I also think is fine.

It's not like people are getting a letter in the mail saying "hey guys, Oriental is not cool 'k? we've decided it's racist" to let him know of that.
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The incident took place in the US. The guy, I'm assuming, is American.
This isn't a case of the US projecting its standards upon the rest of the world. You are doing the exact opposite, though.
 
Erico said:
The incident took place in the US. The guy, I'm assuming, is American.
This isn't a case of the US projecting its standards upon the rest of the world. You are doing the exact opposite, though.
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You're completely missing my point, even after I've spelled it out, but that's ok.
 
Reallink said:
In 10 or 20 years, referring to someone as Asian will probably be outdated and somebody will be making a post on Neogaf 3.0 about a racist dad calling them Asian who pulled up this thread on his phone to try to prove it's not racist.
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Language is always so evolving so anything can happen. I'm not gonna complain personally.
 
Nephtis said:
My point that saying "It's a word I grew up with" is a perfectly acceptable reason. The stigma of the word seems to be a rather recent thing (as in, within a few decades), and the entire world (the world doesn't revolve around the US -- shocking, I know) uses it to this day and it's not seen as a derogatory or racist word at all.

The guy brought up the definition of the word, which does back him up in that it's a word used for that cluster of countries. His more pressing priority was to clarify that he isn't a racist (which I seriously doubt he is) by utilizing that resource, which I also think is fine.

It's not like people are getting a letter in the mail saying "hey guys, Oriental is not cool 'k? we've decided it's racist" to let him know of that.
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Somewhat related post, since I can't really convey well enough what I'd like to share with the OP:

My mother is 67 years old and she openly accepts she's racist (she flat out talks about blacks, gays, etc, sometimes in a very demeaning way). We used to argue about how offensive that was, but we ended up getting mad at each other and didn't talk about it again. After a while, I stopped bringing it up and she started avoiding the subject. I don't think she feels allright with what she thinks, but Its one of those cases where I think she'll just never change at all.

God works in misterious ways, and my brother married a black woman (after dating for eight years, racism and hatred all the way from her). My mother however now has the best relationship with her and all of the extended family, so I sometimes wonder how exactly being racist really affects everything or anything at all. I didn't grow up with my mother (as in, she had me when she was 37), so I don't know what the world was for her.

EDIT: Also, I'm sorry if "black" sounds offensive. Not what I mean to do at all, but nobody actually says "african american" over here, they just say "afro" community which is just weird...
 
BPoole said:
I had no clue oriental was considered offensive
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Neither did I :/

Some people just do not like to be corrected, that does not mean they are racists. It seems clear that he did not know oriental could be used as an offensive term hence why he tried to prove it. That said if this is true that would explain why he became more agitated after you accused him of being a racist when you said "that's the excuse racists use when they use the word nigger."

That or maybe he is a racist though imo seems like he is just really stubborn. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
enanogrande said:
Old dude was was being a stubborn idiot, but there was no need to react how you did OP. I was fine with everything until the "that's the excuse racists use when they use the word nigger." line, which is needlessly confrontational given the situation you were in.

I don't really think you'll care much for my post, seeing as you've ignored others saying similar things, but while you were right to be offended and to also be annoyed at the man's reactions, I don't see the need to call him a racist to his face (And yes, comparing him to racists in the way you did is implicitly calling him a racist). Next time just excuse yourself from the conversation like you ended up doing without getting agitated.
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Did you ignore the part before this where the OP was saying that it got to the point where he was looking up the definition on his phone just to try to prove her wrong? The guy was already confrontational way before the OP said that.

Freaky Fred said:
did you forget you already posted?
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Lmao
 
oneils said:
The way I understand it, the term oriental is offensive because the US' immigration policy (between 192x and 1965) was pretty draconian.

There was a strict quota system implemented, based on census data. Immigration was limited to 2 or 3% of each nationality that resided in the US at the time of the latest census.

But there was also an exclusion for Asians. That meant that Asians were banned from immigrating to US period.

I believe this policy was implemented by referring to all asians as "orientals." Census forms and immigration forms lumped asians together as orientals. Checking off the "oriental" box on an american immigration form (between 192x and 1965) basically meant you were barred from the US.

The word oriental effectively meant you were not and could not be an American.

So, yeah, I can definitely understand why an american-asian would have a problem being called "oriental."
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Never knew this, thanks for the information.

Of course some people will still continue to express disbelief that a word they don't find offensive could ever be offensive for any reason
 
freeofgreed said:
The OP isn't saying oriental is as bad as the N word. She's saying that the rational he used i.e. "It's not offensive because I grew up with it" is one commonly used by racists to defended racist terminology, which is absolutely true.
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It's still not considered offensive in many circles, thus the continued usage. But the word he was comparing it to was literally never not offensive. They are therefore not analogous.
 
freeofgreed said:
Did you ignore the part before this where the OP was saying that it got to the point where he was looking up the definition on his phone just to try to prove her wrong? The guy was already confrontational way before the OP said that.
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You really think arguing whether or not a word is offensive is the same as calling someone a racist?
 
SapientWolf said:
It's still not considered offensive in many circles, thus the continued usage. But the word he was comparing it to was literally never not offensive. They are therefore not analogous.
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...OP wasn't comparing the words. Like, you literally just responded to a post saying that.
 
You were absolutely right to assert yourself and inform your roommate's father he was being offensive.

Saying something racist necessarily makes someone a racist though, so it's only to be expected when someone becomes defensive as it's a touchy subject, especially if they don't believe they're not racist. Ignorance plays a role in these things. And as you can tell from this thread, not everyone, including myself, was aware oriental is considered offensive. Now we know. Hopefully your roommate's father will refrain from using the word in the same context in the future.

btw, this sentence really bothers me.
It's kind of weird now knowing that the person I live with comes from such an ignorant background but I don't hold it against her.
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Granted, your friend's father was ignorant of the connotations regarding the word oriental, but you don't know him very well having only met him once. Certainly not enough to state with confidence your friend comes from an ignorant background.
 
Nephtis said:
You're completely missing my point, even after I've spelled it out, but that's ok.
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I'm just responding to the part where you state how the word is fine in other parts of the world, which misses the entire point of the incident in the OP.
You and others in this thread keep bringing this up, about how Oriental is fine in other countries, as if it was anything more than a trivial "Did You Know?" digression apart from the actual topic being debated.

I agree with you on your point about how these once-OK, now casually-racist terms will be generally slow to phase out from the acceptable vernacular, though.
 
Do a lot of people in this thread feel like, upon being informed that a word you used hurt a person, that the first step is evaluating whether you would feel the same way, and if no, steadfastly defending your own perspective?

Am I crazy for thinking immediately, "Oh shit, I offended them by accident, better correct this"?

OP you did the right thing. The dad would rather have things be his way rather than consider the feelings of other people, you don't owe him your patience.
 
Erico said:
I'm just responding to the part where you state how the word is fine in other parts of the world, which misses the entire point of the incident in the OP.
You and others in this thread keep bringing this up, about how Oriental is fine in other countries, as if it was anything more than a trivial "Did You Know?" digression apart from the actual topic being debated.

I agree with you on your point about how these once-OK, now casually-racist terms will be generally slow to phase out from the acceptable vernacular, though.
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The guy in the OP is British.

He grew up with a now outdated word that wasn't used as a slur. OP had a right to be offended, but his reaction wasn't surprising. Just ignorant.

He shouldn't have pushed it, but OP pushing back in the way they did didn't help educate him further. It escalated it dramatically.

Everyone just got their backs up.
 
My stepdad once defended his use of the n-word by saying "we (meaning whites) invented it so its actually our word."

Yeah, he's not really repentant about his racism.
 
jacksnap said:
Do a lot of people in this thread feel like, upon being informed that a word you used hurt a person, that the first step is evaluating whether you would feel the same way, and if no, steadfastly defending your own perspective?

Am I crazy for thinking immediately, "Oh shit, I offended them by accident, better correct this"?

OP you did the right thing. The dad would rather have things be his way rather than consider the feelings of other people, you don't owe him your patience.
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Its happened to me before. I called a dutch woman "scandinavian." Well, I quickly learned just how ignorant I am about the nordic countries, the scandanavian peninsula about whether or not Holland is an acceptable substitute for the Netherlands.

To this day, I am still confused! Obviously, I am just really ignorant on these matters. If I ever offend, I definitely try to correct myself.
 
Infinite said:
...OP wasn't comparing the words. Like, you literally just responded to a post saying that.
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The situation wasn't analogous either. In fact, it doesn't even make sense. If the person does not know that the word is meant to give offense or be derogatory then how could the usage make them racist? That would only make them ignorant. Racist usage of the term implies full awareness of the meaning and its implications.

The only way the OP's statement would make sense is if a person was intending to offend while slyly claiming ignorance. But that is something that has the benefit of the doubt with the word oriental, and not the word nigger. You would full well know that word was offensive unless you were frozen back in the 1800s and thawed out today just to argue with the OP.
 
SapientWolf said:
The situation wasn't analogous either. In fact, it doesn't even make sense. If the person does not know that the word is meant to give offense or be derogatory then how could the usage make them racist? That would only make them ignorant. Racist usage of the term implies full awareness of the meaning and its implications.

The only way the OP's statement would make sense is if a person was intending to offend while slyly claiming ignorance. But that is something that has the benefit of the doubt with the word oriental, and not the word nigger. You would full well know that word was offensive unless you were frozen back in the 1800s and thawed out today just to argue with the OP.
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The person knew the word was offensive because OP told them it was in the very same scenario. The person then proceeded with that shitty defense instead of shutting the fuck up.
 
Oriental is not the preferred nomenclature in North America. Not being the preferred nomenclature doesn't mean automatically bigoted. Although it can show ignorance and lack of sensitivity.
 
I remember when Bill Parcells was trying to describe surprise plays and said, "no disrespect to the Orientals, but we call those 'Jap plays.' No disrespect."

People felt disrespected.
 
I dunno, I'd have thought if he'd lived in the US for 30 years he'd have figured out that Oriental is derogatory there. I know I'm in a younger generation, but I thought that was pretty common knowledge.
 
backslashbunny said:
WELL I ASKED MY ASIAN FRIENDS (SEVEN) OF THEM AND THEY ALL THOUGHT IT WAS SO OFFENSIVE THAT THREE OF THEM JUMPED OFF A BRIDGE.



But seriously, it doesn't need to offend *every single person* to be offensive.
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Sorry, but the idea of a person being *so offended* they'll jump off a bridge is hilarious.

"Why I oughtta--!! I am so offended!" *jumps off bridge* lol


edit: I wouldn't be offended if someone referred to me as Oriental... I'd just laugh at them in my head and dismiss them. I don't have the inclination to educate ignorance.

They can keep doing what they're doing, and sooner or later they'll say it to the wrong people and they'll get their faces bashed in (not that I condone it). :x.
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Bunny, I take issue with the bolded part. Ignorance doesn't equal malice - so you rather let someone say something that you would take offense with (unbeknownst to them) and let them be assaulted by it because they had it coming?

:(
 
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