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[SmokyDave]

Let me get this straight, in the rest of the world conversations go like this.


"Oh, your father was a Glimy-Goob Gop?"

"Actually, thats kind of offensive. Nobody says that anymore."

"Nah, that's bullshit. Your father was a Glimy-Goob Gop."

Well, no. Assuming the term 'Glimy-Goob Gop' isn't offensive in the rest of the world, I'd expect the conversation to be more like this:

"Oh, your father was a Glimy-Goob Gop?"

"Yeah".

 

[Rubenov]

Sometimes the demeanor / attitude of a person reveals more about their way of thinking than the exact words they use.

 

[Red Liquorice]

Think of "oriental" as similar to "colored" if you're having trouble fathoming how it's offensive.

It's quaintly racist, not bludgeoningly so, but then the roommate's dad's following behavior drove the nail in the coffin.

This is what I was going to say. You might still hear both words used but only by some old granny that doesn't know times have changed - they're both outdated terms not usually used with any spite or malice, just ignorance.

I know hardly any Spanish, but I think I'm right in saying 'orient' comes from the Spanish word for east, so 'oriental' is like saying Eastern. I'm not excusing it, just saying the origins of a word aren't always necessarily offensive in themselves, just their use. You can have an oriental vase or rug, but a person is not an object, not "an oriental" - much like no one is "a black" or "a gay" (despite hearing those terms used in the past too).

 

[manueldelalas]

OK OP, let me get this straight.

You think saying an asian is "oriental" is bad (had no idea personally, although I don't use the word), but you are fine labeling other people as "racist", even though he was not trying to be rude or anything?

This is what I was going to say. You might still hear both words used but only by some old granny that doesn't know times have changed - they're both outdated terms not usually used with any spite or malice, just ignorance.

I know hardly any Spanish, but I think I'm right in saying 'orient' comes from the Spanish word for east, so 'oriental' is like saying Eastern. I'm not excusing it, just saying the origins of a word aren't always necessarily offensive in themselves, just their use. You can have an oriental vase or rug, but a person is not an object, not "an oriental" - much like no one is "a black" or "a gay" (despite hearing those terms used in the past too).

It's a latin word, not spanish.
late Middle English: via Old French from Latin orient- 'rising or east', from oriri 'to rise'.

 

[stilgar]

I don't know. I maybe be blind on these sort of issues, but I don't think it's something man should feel offensed about. Again, I wasn't there, so I don't know the tone of the conversation; also you didn't know him before...that counts.

 

[way more]

OK OP, let me get this straight.

You think saying an asian is "oriental" is bad (had no idea personally, although I don't use the word), but you are fine labeling other people as "racist", even though he was not trying to be rude or anything?

It's a latin word, not spanish.
late Middle English: via Old French from Latin orient- 'rising or east', from oriri 'to rise'.

This is what I love. Calling a person the "R"-Word is worse than calling someone a chink, paki, oriental, jap. etc. It's not even calling them a "R"-word, it's saying that's a R-word term. There was a incident where Obama was called on saying a sexist thing. Did he get indigent and threaten everyone? No, he said he didn't realize it was so and apologized. Is that so hard, to admit you didn't know a phrase or word was offensive?

 

[Red Liquorice]

It's a latin word, not spanish.
late Middle English: via Old French from Latin orient- 'rising or east', from oriri 'to rise'.

OK, there you go - I was on the right track

 

[Winter John]

I don't understand people who think a word must not be offensive because they've always used it or have never been corrected before. I learned that the word "midget" was offensive several years ago and haven't used it since. it's not hard.

The difference is you learned. I can point to my own example of using the word chinky to describe food. I hadn't thought i was being racist because I didn't intend it as a racist term, and growing up that's just what people called the local takeaway. When I learned it was considered racist I stopped using it.

Language constantly evolves and what might have been considered acceptable at one point may not be any longer, but if someone doesn't know a word is no longer considered acceptable, that doesn't make them racist. I've heard using the term "black" to describe Africans is offensive now. I didn't know that, but like most people I don't use a person's race to describe them, so I'm out of the loop on what's considered offensive, or what is acceptable. The local garage is owned by a Somalian guy, when I take my car there I don't say, "I'm going to coloured Dave's to get the oil changed." I say I'm going to Dave's.

 

[Freaky Fred]

I know hardly any Spanish, but I think I'm right in saying 'orient' comes from the Spanish word for east, so 'oriental' is like saying Eastern. I'm not excusing it, just saying the origins of a word aren't always necessarily offensive in themselves, just their use. You can have an oriental vase or rug, but a person is not an object, not "an oriental" - much like no one is "a black" or "a gay" (despite hearing those terms used in the past too).

Going by this logic, if someone can be a black person or a gay person rather than "a black" or "a gay", then why couldn't someone be an oriental person?

 

[manueldelalas]

This is what I love. Calling a person the "R"-Word is worse than calling someone a chink, paki, oriental, jap. etc.

I mean, it's the intention; reading the OP, I don't feel he intended to be racist or offensive; although he was kind of an asshole when OP confronted him (but I'm sure the next time he won't use the word).

But I have a problem with labels; I mean, OP, you could have said "he used a racist expression", or maybe "he was being racist"; but you said he "IS" a racist, like that couldn't be improved upon. I guess some people here will be to thick to understand what I mean though...

 

[Red Liquorice]

Going by this logic, if someone can be a black person or a gay person rather than "a black" or "a gay", then why couldn't someone be an oriental person?

Sigh.

 

[way more]

Going by this logic, if someone can be a black person or a gay person rather than "a black" or "a gay", then why couldn't someone be an oriental person?

Ah yes, logic. The perfect way to understand racist terms, words, vocabulary and usage. Because racialization is such a logical and percise thing we should ascribe mathematical thought to it.


Honkey = bad

Nigger = bad

Therefore, both are equally bad.

 

[PJV3]

The father seems a bit out of touch, I would use oriental in the UK but I know it's not popular to use it in the US. When in Rome etc.

 

[neurosisxeno]

The first time I experienced directed racism in person was actually a few weeks ago. I was at the bar I frequent and went out for smoke only to notice the doorman was staring daggers at this group of kids, one of them talking to a regular. At the point I walked in the first thing I heard was "I'm just out here talkin about the white man keepin us down and this motha fucka proves my point." The guy he was talking to I know decently well and just shook his head.

He then gets pissed because the guy isn't instigating anything and drops this gem. "Yo fuck this terrorist lookin motha fucka wearin his nice ass clothes and fuckin loafers. Yo man fuck yo loafers..." He then proceeded to intentionally spill his coffee all over the guys shoes and part of his pants. Also, for the record, despite being identified as a "terrorist lookin motha fucka" the guy is actually Armenian, and one of the nicest guys I've met who comes into the bar regularly. The door man just looks at them and goes "Are you fucking serious? You better start walking or I'm calling the cops." They then took off and the kid started shouting and getting all pissed because he didn't have his coffee anymore.

Apparently this all started because they asked him for a lighter when he got outside and he jokingly said "Sure, as long as you don't steal it." Which for anyone who's a smoker is not exactly a rare thing to say or hear since people pocket lighters all the time in public places. It was just jarring to me since I had never truly witnessed racism in a face to face situation.

 

[blitzcloud]

I wouldn't know that oriental was offensive (here in spain), specially when many restaurants from asian culture self-define as oriental restaurants.

 

[Yakitorii]

I had no clue oriental was considered offensive

This. I am Asian and I don´t feel offended by it, but maybe the meaning is different here in Europe? There are a lot of Asian supermarkets here which uses "Oriental" in their store name.

 

[SmokyDave]

This. I am Asian and I don´t feel offended by it, but maybe the meaning is different here in Europe? There are a lot of Asian supermarkets here which uses "Oriental" in their store name.

Restaurants too:

http://www.orientalrestaurantgroup.co.uk

Just whack 'Oriental UK' into Google and you'll find a metric shit-ton of businesses.

 

[Freaky Fred]

Ah yes, logic. The perfect way to understand racist terms, words, vocabulary and usage. Because racialization is such a logical and percise thing we should ascribe mathematical thought to it.


Honkey =ner = bad

Therefore, both are equally bad.

I based my question on his saying that oriental is only offensive because people aren't objects. I honestly can't tell if you read my post or not

 

[LeleSocho]

You can have an oriental vase or rug, but a person is not an object, not "an oriental" - much like no one is "a black" or "a gay" (despite hearing those terms used in the past too).

Oriental is an adjective and unless i'm brainfarting adjectives are not limited to objects
A person can be oriental just like it can be occidental or tall or short.

---

I personally wouldn't have used the word oriental because there's the way more common word asian to describe essentially the same thing but sincerely i would think two or three times before labeling racist someone who uses it.

 

[Alucrid]

Oriental is an adjective and unless i'm brainfarting adjectives are not limited to objects
A person can be oriental just like it can be occidental or tall or short.

---

I personally wouldn't have used the word oriental because there's the way more common word asian to describe essentially the same thing but sincerely i would think two or three times before labeling racist someone who uses it.

He's not talking about how it can be used, in a grammatical sense, but how it should be used, in an acceptable manner.

 

[way more]

I based my question on his saying that oriental is only offensive because people aren't objects. I honestly can't tell if you read my post or not

I suppose I ascribed real world context or modern and historical usage into the meaning. But yes, in that tiny bubble of reality you found a logical inconsistency that works as long as you don't attempt to concile it with historical context.

 

[BGBW]

I learnt that oriental is offensive in the States thanks to Avenue Q.

But that also taught me that everyone is racist so don't make a big deal about it.

 

[blitzcloud]

the only reason I assume that being oriental can be offensive is because it somehow means you're from the east, more precisely extreme east cardinal point. Technically asian is a race definition, not incompatible with where you live... while oriental would be more location-focused. But I still don't see it as an offensive term because I see it used on restaurants, and "bazars" too.

 

[way more]

the only reason I assume that being oriental can be offensive is because it somehow means you're from the east, more precisely extreme east cardinal point. Technically asian is a race definition, not incompatible with where you live... while oriental would be more location-focused. But I still don't see it as an offensive term because I see it used on restaurants, and "bazars" too.

That's the "logical" part of racism you are trying to employ. There doesn't exist one, so it's silly to try to view it through such lens. Why is Jigaboo offensive? Or the thousands of other slurs that exist?

It's not a math problem. Is a social historical issue that burdens us to this day.

 

[LiQuid!]

I agree that it was a "rare encounter" with a racist, since I imagine people actually being offended by the term "oriental" and considering someone racist for using it to benignly describe peoples from the orient must indeed be a rare occurrence. Lighten up OP. If I were that dad I would have been offended that you got so easily offended too.

 

[Freaky Fred]

I suppose I ascribed real world context or modern and historical usage into the meaning. But yes, in that tiny bubble of reality you found a logical inconsistency that works as long as you don't attempt to concile it with historical context.

I really don't think you understand my question yet.

I'm not asking why oriental is offensive, I'm asking why Red Liquorice thinks that the reason oriental is offensive is because it implies that people are objects. That doesn't make sense to me.

for someone who is so concerned with historical context, you should actually examine the context of my post

 

[way more]

I really don't think you understand my question yet.

I'm not asking why oriental is offensive, I'm asking why Red Liquorice thinks that the reason oriental is offensive is because it implies that people are objects. That doesn't make sense to me.

for someone who is so concerned with historical context, you should actually examine the context of my post

Oh, you understand why oriental is offensive but you are upset that Red Liquorice would be offended for the wrong reason.

The historical context of why Red Liquorice upset is, I admit, outside my area of knowledge. I must concede that you know more about Red Liquorice than I do. And here I was thinking we were talking about race.

 

[ScriptedReality]

yeah some people just dont know. tbh i never use the term because it seems dated. but i can see how its the same as someone calling me colored.

 

[Freaky Fred]

Oh, you understand why oriental is offensive but you are upset that Red Liquorice would be offended for the wrong reason.

The historical context of why Red Liquorice upset is, I admit, outside my area of knowledge. I must concede that you know more about Red Liquorice than I do. And here I was thinking we were talking about race.

you could just say you misinterpreted my question instead of trying to deflect any sort of responsibility for your own confusion on the matter.

I'm not upset about Red Liquorice being offended for the "wrong" reason, I'm just saying that his reasoning doesn't make sense to me. To better understand him I posed a pretty simple question instead of acting like a pompous dick and telling him he's wrong

 

[Moral Panic]

Oriental can be considered racist in the UK, I don't know what you people are talking about.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Fred, go to sleep instead of being obtuse and bringing up the OP's old threads to look like you have a point

 

[jonnyp]

I would never have thought 'oriental' was offensive.

I'll be sure to tell the Chinese owners at my next visit to one of my favourite restaurants in Oslo, which is called Oriental Restaurant.

 

[maxcriden]

On a separate note, and I apologize if this was already covered, are non-black people allowed to say the n-word like the OP did? I had thought it was generally frowned upon.

 

[Freaky Fred]

Fred, go to sleep instead of being obtuse and bringing up the OP's old threads to look like you have a point

Those old threads were perfectly relevant to the point I was making in that thread.

It's 7am, why would I go to bed?

On a separate note, and I apologize if this was already covered, are non-black people allowed to say the n-word like the OP did? I had thought it was generally frowned upon.

I think if you're talking about the word itself, or someone else's use of it, then you can say it.

If you're using the word yourself or using it a hateful manner, then you should not say it.

 

[anarckitty]

I do this a lot, but I'm actually interested where people are from and their background. Now I wonder if it's some racist tendency I'm not aware of. Last time I asked I got a kind of weird look.

It's not and you're fine. Since people can't read other people's thoughts some people might decide to judge you as a secret racist though.

 

[Kangi]

Reminds me of a recent Cracked article:

But on the other hand, the words we use matter, and if people are predictably going to be insulted or humiliated by the things you say, that's on you, not them. It doesn't take much to keep track of what words are going to be insulting or humiliating; "Negro" and "Oriental" haven't been acceptable for a long time now, which you would have picked up on if you'd read a newspaper or spoken to another human being in the past couple decades.

"Yeah, but then I might have to change my opinion about some things."

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

On a separate note, and I apologize if this was already covered, are non-black people allowed to say the n-word like the OP did? I had thought it was generally frowned upon.

I feel like its fine in that context; she wasn't using it as a slur. It's no different from someone earlier in the thread laying out equivalent slurs in the context they did.

*Disclaimer: I am one black man and have not been authorized as Ofiicial Voice. Some others may not agree.

 

[SmokyDave]

Oriental can be considered racist in the UK, I don't know what you people are talking about.

I'm going to guess that the people that you refer to as 'you people' don't know what you're talking about either.

I can't speak for the community in question, but I will point out that the word is frequently and openly used in businesses run by the community, and I've certainly never seen that with any other racist term. If it is offensive, I'm not sure the memo has reached everyone yet.

(It's probably worth me pointing out that I don't think I've ever said the word 'Oriental' out loud, let alone to describe someone. Just want to get in front of the old 'you're only defending the word because you want to offend minorities' chestnut).

 

[Sarye]

UK Gaf really needs to shut up about it not being racist. This happened in the US and the term Oriental is definitely racist here.

I don't know if it's been posted but it was a term used a lot back when America used the Chinese as slaves to build the railroads. It's not a word on the same level as "nigger" but it is still racist.

To everyone jumping on Mineshaft_Gap, she's more upset of his reaction than his usage of the word. If you read her OP she let it slide multiple times but mentioned it finally incase he just didn't know. Do you think his reaction was a justified reaction to that? Sorry only a racist would react that badly.

To be clear, it's racist when referring to a person, not a thing. Oriental Rug: Not Racist. "He is Oriental": Racist.

Source: I'm Asian that dealt with racism growing up. Yay.

EDIT: On topic of being called exotic and such, it's not racist but it's still not a good thing to call an Asian. It implies different and not the norm. I am born in America. Love American food, Love American Sports, Watch College Football religiously, and yet I'm not truly American because of the way I look. I know people are innocently asking, "Oh where are you REALLY from?" but to be asked that constantly does annoy me.

 

[Jintor]

OK OP, let me get this straight.

You think saying an asian is "oriental" is bad (had no idea personally, although I don't use the word), but you are fine labeling other people as "racist", even though he was not trying to be rude or anything?

Oh, well, if he didn't really mean it then I guess that's alright then.

What no of course it's not don't be stupid.

 

[Nephtis]

UK Gaf really needs to shut up about it not being racist. This happened in the US and the term Oriental is definitely racist here.

I don't know if it's been posted but it was a term used a lot back when America used the Chinese as slaves to build the railroads. It's not a word on the same level as "nigger" but it is still racist.

To everyone jumping on Mineshaft_Gap, she's more upset of his reaction than his usage of the word. If you read her OP she let it slide multiple times but mentioned it finally incase he just didn't know. Do you think his reaction was a justified reaction to that? Sorry only a racist would react that badly.

To be clear, it's racist when referring to a person, not a thing. Oriental Rug: Not Racist. "He is Oriental": Racist.

Source: I'm Asian that dealt with racism growing up. Yay.

And you need to realize the person in question isn't American. He's from the UK. So I would say that UK GAF is pretty relevant in stating their opinion on it. Offensive to some doesn't necessarily mean racist. Ignorant perhaps... And his reaction is something I could easily see anyone else doing when confronted.

Unfortunately all we have is the one side of the encounter. There's no video or anything. In cases like these a lot can be learned from body language and tone - and I'm sure there are ways in which this would not have escalated, but it did.

 

[Cardigan]

Am I supposed to be offended if someone calls me a Westerner?

 

[Sarye]

And you need to realize the person in question isn't American. He's from the UK. So I would say that UK GAF is pretty relevant in stating their opinion on it. Offensive to some doesn't necessarily mean racist. Ignorant perhaps... And his reaction is something I could easily see anyone else doing when confronted.

Unfortunately all we have is the one side of the encounter. There's no video or anything. In cases like these a lot can be learned from body language and tone - and I'm sure there are ways in which this would not have escalated, but it did.

Yes I realize he is from the UK. But he is an immigrant FROM the UK. It may not be racist in the UK but it IS racist in the US. My parents are from China. For arguments sake: If it is acceptable to use 'nigger' in China, does that make it okay for my parents to use the word in the US? No, I'd be mortified and correct them.

Edit: If someone politely corrects me of using an offensive term and my reaction is, "No it's not offensive". Do you think that is a legit response? Because that's what we are really arguing here since that's what really happened.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Am I supposed to be offended if someone calls me a Westerner?

Depends on how often you need others to tell you how to think

 

[ItIsOkBro]

I'm curious, what you you guys think about the term 'coolie'?

 

[capslock]

Something got under my skin today...

My roommate's dad came out to the apartment visit her, he and I were introduced to each other and somehow the conversation veered into the subject of my family, which led to race. Whereupon he used the word oriental to describe my family and I. At first I let it slide but then he kept saying it. I just sort of figured that maybe he didn't realize it was rude and rather than allow him to continue embarrassing himself I politely pointed out that "Oriental" isn't the acceptable nomenclature when referring to a person of Asian ancestry.

I was surprised to be met with some resistance. The guy started going on about political correctness and how it wasn't offensive. He went so far as to pull up the definition on his phone to support his argument. He gets down to the point where it says "sometimes offensive" and rather than lose steam he changes his stance from "It's not offensive" to "It's the word I grew up with." I didn't want to get into an argument with the guy but I said "that's the excuse racists use when they use the word nigger." He said I was full of shit and I excused myself from the conversation.

I don't think I was being overly sensitive. I didn't call him out to start an argument, I legitimately thought he just didn't know. I would want someone to tell me if I was saying something offensive without realizing it so that I don't find myself in a similar situation later on with someone who might get really pissed off. He's gone now but things have been a little awkward with my roommate since he left and I got back home. I don't know if it's reasonable for me to expect she should apologize on his behalf. It's kind of weird now knowing that the person I live with comes from such an ignorant background but I don't hold it against her. I just know if the situation were reversed I'd be positively mortified if I were in her shoes.

</bloggaf>

If you find it offensive it's offensive. Then it's the responsibility of the other person to not use the word again.

 

[meow]

If someone politely corrects me of using an offensive term and my reaction is, "No it's not offensive". Do you think that is a legit response? Because that's what we are really arguing here since that's what really happened.

It's harder to empathize when OP's past posts have been really polarizing and confrontational. If that's how she comes across in real life, too, his reaction was pretty douchey but I'm not sure I believe she didn't egg him to that point or that she was as polite as she claims. It's an ignorant response but racist? Eh, I'm less sure.

 

[Ol No Bones]

The guy sounds more like he has an axe to grind.

 

[SmokyDave]

If you find it offensive it's offensive. Then it's the responsibility of the other person to not use the word again.

In the case of an established slur (such as 'Oriental' in the US), I'd agree.

As a general principle though? Fuck that. People can take offence at all manner of things, and not all grievances are legitimate.

 

[Sarye]

It's harder to empathize when OP's past posts have been really polarizing and confrontational. If that's how she comes across in real life, too, his reaction was pretty douchey but I'm not sure I believe she didn't egg him to that point or that she was as polite as she claims. It's an ignorant response but racist? Eh, I'm less sure.

Honestly I don't really recognize many people here so I am not aware of her post history. Regardless, I'm more surprised at the things people are saying in this thread more than anything else.