Support NeoGAF

[Gucci Messiah]

Does anyone know why "oriental" is offensive? We know why words like "negro", "colored", "wetback" are offensive because those were designed to be derogatory and stereotypical words; a way to differentiate and lessen others. Oriental is a historical word. It means the East. It encompasses peoples, cultures, studies, etc..

Where exactly does the offense come from? Does this offense also apply to the word "Asian"?

This is my point of confusion.

I don't see how this is hard to understand. Oriental is a term to describe an object, not a person. Orient by extension is an outdated imperialist term used to describe a region, once again, not a person. When you refer to an Asian-American as 'oriental' it can be seen as viewing them as an object or tool which is inherently racist, especially if you have even the slightest bit of knowledge on European imperialism. The term is antiquated and emerged during a time period when Asians had subordinate status, it isn't something that should be used today because that Eurocentric nomenclature does not fly in the modern world.

That's why it is offensive. Educate yourself.

 

[Meteorain]

So I did a quick quiz around my office and people on steam.

None of the asians from the UK found it offensive, but a few of the US asians did.

Personally not really seeing the problem (UK dweller), compared to other derogatory terms which are meant to be demeaning (nigger, paki, wetback), Oriental is based off a regional basis, where someone is from the Orient region. The term is outdated and inaccurate but the point stands.

 

[kurisu_1974]

People have said several times in the thread what the problem is.

Even in the comment section of the Webster definition in the OP, people (Asian and otherwise) are confused as to why it is "sometimes offensive".

 

[Vagabundo]

Orientals was used when I was a kid growing up here in Ireland. It is an old word though, not used to describe people much anymore, something an older person might use.

However the word is in general use otherwise. Lots of the Chinese/Thai takeaways use it in their name. Some food products.

The OPs story seems like a culture clash and a personality clash methinks. Clash of the stubborn titans.

 

[Omegasquash]

No they haven't. Where does the offense come from. People have said they're offended. We know why the word "nigger", "negro", "colored", "wetback", etc. are offensive because we know points in history where it was used and its continued use caused them to be offensive.

Oriental doesn't really have this. Sure, there were hotspots where discussions were held, but it wasn't a widely held issue it seems. The change mostly started in universities but that may be due to the progressive and "PC atmosphere".

I'm just confused as to where the offense originated or what it actually is. Asian is the exact same word it just excludes countries.

Edit: So it may be just a giant wall of ignorance, anyhow, anyone got any reading material on how "oriental" became offensive?

When someone digs to find out where you're "really" from, it's safe to say that they're using the term they're looking for in a derogatory way, as highlighted in this case. Why bother looking for where someone is REALLY from immediately out of the gate? Why the hell does that matter?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Even in the comment section of the Webster definition in the OP, people (Asian and otherwise) are confused as to why it is "sometimes offensive".

The reasons aren't hard to grasp if you actually care.

It's not like people want a moratorium on the word "oriental," the word itself is not inherently bad, it's just antiquated, weird, lazy, and linked to unpleasant things when used to refer to people.

 

[Ingueferroque]

This is a very hostile thread and it does not seem like many are willing to discuss this rationally.

Wasn't the point of the thread to start a discussion and to see what others think? Or is it to point fingers at anyone with a differing viewpoint and yell 'racist!'?

The reasons aren't hard to grasp if you actually care.

It's not like people want a moratorium on the word "oriental," the word itself is not inherently bad, it's just antiquated, weird, lazy, and linked to unpleasant things when used to refer to people.

So what are you saying? Seems like you agree with me, and those you are berating.

 

[richiek]

The reasons aren't hard to grasp if you actually care.

It's not like people want a moratorium on the word "oriental," the word itself is not inherently bad, it's just antiquated, weird, lazy, and linked to unpleasant things when used to refer to people.

Exactly. It's the same reason why you wouldn't call a black person a "negro" today.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

I didnt realize that was offensive. I dont use the word, though.

Ill be sure to keep that in mind.

 

[Sketchbag]

Yes they have.

I have read the thread. I'm asking for the origin of the offense and whether people who take offense to the word "oriental" take offense to the word "asian". No one has answered these two.

Seriously, get out of here with this nonsense.

You're on Gaf which means you have internet, do your own homework

Why even discuss things then? If we can just look on the Internet. Also, it is documented that the offense generally came from universities (which is why Oriental Studies is now Asian Studies and universities are known for more political correctness, but that's beside the point).

I don't see how this is hard to understand. Oriental is a term to describe an object, not a person. Orient by extension is an outdated imperialist term used to describe a region, once again, not a person. When you refer to an Asian-American as 'oriental' it can be seen as viewing them as an object or tool which is inherently racist, especially if you have even the slightest bit of knowledge on European imperialism. The term is antiquated and emerged during a time period when Asians has subordinate status, it isn't something that should be used today because that Eurocentric nomenclature does not fly in the modern world.

That's why it is offensive. Educate yourself.

Orient describes "east" and every thing it houses like peoples, cultures, religions, etc. It's not a descriptor for every thing besides people. You call it imperialistic... why? The only version of "orient" that's imperialistic is "far east" (which by studies have shown to be confusing when studying the east). Orient was more latin and meant just east. This could be seen as "imperialistic" but at the time it encompassed areas we know today to be "Asia". Yet today the Orient actually includes the areas it originated from and the West is Occident. Occident isn't offensive, is it?

Asians currently have subordinate status technically. The only real difference is they sort of had a hand in the word "Asian", but it means the same thing. This is my confusion.

Where did you learn that "oriental" was a descriptor for only things and places? It doesn't seem to have the same racist history or offensive history as words we generally, locally or globally, find offensive. It's an odd one.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

This is a very hostile thread and it does not seem like many are willing to discuss this rationally.

Wasn't the point of the thread to start a discussion and to see what others think? Or is it to point fingers at anyone with a differing viewpoint and yell 'racist!'?



So what are you saying? Seems like you agree with me, and those you are berating.

Did you actually read what you quoted

 

[BGBW]

What's a non lazy word?

 

[Nappuccino]

I honestly had no idea it was offensive until earlier this year.

The word doesn't come up much around here and it seems simliar to "middle-eastern" or w/e when just describing that a person is from a specific region.

But it apparently goes beyond that.

So . . . I don't disagree that you should have pointed it out, but I also sympathize with his reaction because he probably had no idea he was using an offensive term.

 

[Omegasquash]

This is a very hostile thread and it does not seem like many are willing to discuss this rationally.

Wasn't the point of the thread to start a discussion and to see what others think? Or is it to point fingers at anyone with a differing viewpoint and yell 'racist!'?

There's plenty of rational explanations as to why the term can be used/is offensive. When someone digs in, or asks questions without taking the time to read responses, it's sketchy, and cause for question. I haven't seen responses where folks are outright pointing fingers, but I've seen a few that still ask the same question after the answer has been given. That's all.

 

[Sketchbag]

There's plenty of rational explanations as to why the term can be used/is offensive. When someone digs in, or asks questions without taking the time to read responses, it's sketchy, and cause for question. I haven't seen responses where folks are outright pointing fingers, but I've seen a few that still ask the same question after the answer has been given. That's all.

Didn't the OP call someone part of the Aryan Brotherhood?

 

[Jaffaboy]

Seriously, get out of here with this nonsense.

You're on Gaf which means you have internet, do your own homework

wat do

 

[Sarye]

I don't see how this is hard to understand. Oriental is a term to describe an object, not a person. Orient by extension is an outdated imperialist term used to describe a region, once again, not a person. When you refer to an Asian-American as 'oriental' it can be seen as viewing them as an object or tool which is inherently racist, especially if you have even the slightest bit of knowledge on European imperialism. The term is antiquated and emerged during a time period when Asians had subordinate status, it isn't something that should be used today because that Eurocentric nomenclature does not fly in the modern world.

That's why it is offensive. Educate yourself.

Thank you. This is probably the best explanation I've heard here.

So I did a quick quiz around my office and people on steam.

None of the asians from the UK found it offensive, but a few of the US asians did.

Personally not really seeing the problem (UK dweller), compared to other derogatory terms which are meant to be demeaning (nigger, paki, wetback), Oriental is based off a regional basis, where someone is from the Orient region. The term is outdated and inaccurate but the point stands.

Thanks for telling me that I should suck it up if I'm called an Oriental next time. Enjoying your diet racism drink?

Even in the comment section of the Webster definition in the OP, people (Asian and otherwise) are confused as to why it is "sometimes offensive".

It's a bit confusing because it's mostly offensive in the US but not really in the UK or other parts of the world. Also the actual word "Oriental" to refer to objects is not racist. It's when you use the word to refer to people that it is. I have a feeling that's the distinction people are missing. It's kinda similar to the usage of the word "colored" You can have colored pencils, colored sand, colored jeans. But calling a black person "colored" is offensive.

 

[Messofanego]

So I did a quick quiz around my office and people on steam.

None of the asians from the UK found it offensive, but a few of the US asians did.

Personally not really seeing the problem (UK dweller), compared to other derogatory terms which are meant to be demeaning (nigger, paki, wetback), Oriental is based off a regional basis, where someone is from the Orient region. The term is outdated and inaccurate but the point stands.

I've heard oriential used for rugs or other items, but never to describe a person in the UK.

At the point where he made the "It's what I grew up with" argument he was aware that the term oriental is offensive to an Asian person as I'd only a few seconds ago just informed him. So what, are you advocating he continue the use of the word despite having just been informed of its status as a racially insensitive term? By a person to whom the term applies, no less? His argument was never valid. A non-asshole non-racist would be like "Oh sorry! I didn't know." and I'd be like "Ain't no thaaang"

It's predictable that the dad doubled down. If a person is stubborn in their views, it gets more extreme after arguments and more set in their ways. Anyone who says "political correctness" makes me suspicious where they're going with that line of reasoning.

Why can't it be enough to just accept the word is offensive to describe a person, even if you don't believe it, and be considerate of others? Like, to just say "oh didn't know, my bad" and move on.

 

[SmokyDave]

What's a non lazy word?

Smiles. There's a whole fucking mile between the first and the last letter so it takes some commitment to read it all.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

wat do

scroll down

also, i guess he owes you a lollipop for doing his homework

 

[Infinite]

I have read the thread. I'm asking for the origin of the offense and whether people who take offense to the word "oriental" take offense to the word "asian". No one has answered

No you weren't paying attention. People have answered the first question. The second question is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[emb]

Throw me in with the whole legion of people in this thread that had no idea it was offensive. Thanks for the education.

Not that I really use the word much anyway... it's usually just not a common word that usually comes to mind.

 

[Omegasquash]

Why can't it be enough to just accept the word is offensive to describe a person, even if you don't believe it, and be considerate of others? Like, to just say "oh didn't know, my bad" and move on.

Why couldn't it be enough in the case of what happened with OP for the guy in question to have accepted "Illinois/Michigan" as an answer? Because that's where OP is from. Was OP of a skin tone that warranted additional question?

 

[Messofanego]

wat do

That is the literal opposite of what it says on Wikipedia! lol

 

[Sketchbag]

No you weren't paying attention. People have answered the first question. The second question is irrelevant to this discussion.

Can you quote me posts that aren't are, "I find it offensive, just be more sensitive", etc.? I'm looking for historical information on how it was used in a way that it became offensive. I've read the thread, I don't believe anyone has shown any of that. We discussed how the OP weirdly equated "oriental" to "nigger", her previous threads, her Craigslist thread, ramen noodles, then back to square one.

Being offended isn't the source of the offense. There has to be a source of why it's offensive. We have documented usage of the word "nigger" so we know why it's offensive, the same for "wetback", "porch monkey", "chink", etc.. Where is the information for "oriental"? The only information so far is that some Asians found it to be label them as "other" in the early '50s and '60s.

 

[Meteorain]

Thanks for telling me that I should suck it up if I'm called an Oriental next time. Enjoying your diet racism drink?

Did I say you have to accept it? I was just pointing out how people perceive the word depending on where they live.

I've heard oriential used for rugs or other items, but never to describe a person in the UK.

I've heard a few of the much older generation use it sometimes in a "that oriental bloke" kind of way. But yea, generally it's used for objects.

 

[Infinite]

Can you quote me posts that aren't are, "I find it offensive, just be more sensitive", etc.? I'm looking for historical information on how it was used in a way that it became offensive. I've read the thread, I don't believe anyone has shown any of that. We discussed how the OP weirdly equated "oriental" to "nigger", her previous threads, her Craigslist thread, ramen noodles, then back to square one.

I'm not gonna bother to do that for you.

 

[Sarye]

I have read the thread. I'm asking for the origin of the offense and whether people who take offense to the word "oriental" take offense to the word "asian". No one has answered these two.

Yes people have. If you can't put it together I don't know what to tell you. Oriental is an antiquated term that originally started during European Imperialism where Asians were viewed as sub human.. below them. Looking at American history, Chinese immigrants were essentially used as slaves, paid next to nothing, and treated like dirt during the construction of the Transcontinental railroad. There used to be a term, "not a china-man's chance" that referred to the high mortality rate of these Chinese workers.

The word Asian doesn't have this connotation.

 

[phillipgessert]

If you're confused by why the term would be offensive, it'd probably be more helpful to explore the word 'Occidental' and its relationship with 'Oriental' rather than simply Googling 'is Oriental offensive'.

And it doesn't matter much if you can round up some people who tell you they aren't offended by the term—actually, 'some/many folks find it offensive' is a pretty legitimate reason to avoid using it in conversation, especially with someone you've just met.

 

[Omegasquash]

Can you quote me posts that aren't are, "I find it offensive, just be more sensitive", etc.? I'm looking for historical information on how it was used in a way that it became offensive. I've read the thread, I don't believe anyone has shown any of that. We discussed how the OP weirdly equated "oriental" to "nigger", her previous threads, her Craigslist thread, ramen noodles, then back to square one.

Being offended isn't the source of the offense. There has to be a source of why it's offensive. We have documented usage of the word "nigger" so we know why it's offensive, the same for "wetback", "porch monkey", "chink", etc.. Where is the information for "oriental"?

You're putting lots of very, very racist terms in quotation marks over and over again in your posts, and I wish that you would stop. We all know that those terms exist, so it's perfectly reasonable that you simply say something like "blatantly racist terms" or "universally understood racist words."

Please stop.

 

[kurisu_1974]

Those damned occidentals and their slurs.

 

[Sketchbag]

Yes people have. If you can't put it together I don't know what to tell you. Oriental is an antiquated term that originally started during European Imperialism where Asians were viewed as sub human.. below them. Looking at American history, Chinese immigrants were essentially used as slaves, paid next to nothing, and treated like dirt during the construction of the Transcontinental railroad. There used to be a term, "not a china-man's chance" that referred to the high mortality rate of these Chinese workers.

The word Asian doesn't have this connotation.

Can you link me to books or studies that delve more into this? I've been reading up on it, and it doesn't seem to be anything imperialistic or sub human but a name for a region people, who are technically in the east now, thought was the only east.

What does Chinese immigrants have to do with the word "oriental"? That's an odd thing to inject into this conversation. Did the trans-continental railway (which we have a similar thing in Canada that used slave labor to create) use the word "oriental" as a pejorative? Do you have links to any readings about this?

This is what I'm curious about. People are saying it's imperialistic, harmful, etc. where did that harm come from. Is there any readings about this? What is so wrong with sharing sources? I thought we were all about discussion and education.

 

[Jaffaboy]

That is the literal opposite of what it says on Wikipedia! lol

That's hilarious, but also shows that things like this still need to be discussed. You can't totally blame the guy in the OP's story for reacting like he did.

 

[wsippel]

The reasons aren't hard to grasp if you actually care.

It's not like people want a moratorium on the word "oriental," the word itself is not inherently bad, it's just antiquated, weird, lazy, and linked to unpleasant things when used to refer to people.

Antiquated I give you, but what exactly makes the word weird and lazy? It's the opposite of occidental, which was used to describe Europe. Is "occidental" racist? I also don't know what "unpleasant" things you believe it's linked to, but in Europe, or at least parts of Europe, it's a largely neutral term with some romantic undertones.

Then again, the definition and use of the term seems a bit different. Europeans wouldn't consider the Philippines part of the orient in the first place, the orient to us is mostly Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan and North Africa. It's probably a bit different in Spanish, as "oriental" just means "eastern". On the other hand, some Asians do identify as oriental (e.g. Oriental Pearl Tower).

 

[Infinite]

That's hilarious, but also shows that things like this still need to be discussed. You can't totally blame the guy in the OP's story for reacting like he did.

Yeah you can. He handled it in a fucked up way.

 

[Omegasquash]

That's hilarious, but also shows that things like this still need to be discussed. You can't totally blame the guy in the OP's story for reacting like he did.

Sorry to say that you can. It would have been JUST as easy to respond in kind to the OP.

"Sorry, I didn't know that word is offensive"

vs.

"What let me dig that up to show you that what I'm calling you isn't offensive even though you're letting me know you're not comfortable."

There's a big difference there.

 

[Sarye]

Can you link me to books or studies that delve more into this? I've been reading up on it, and it doesn't seem to be anything imperialistic or sub human but a name for a region people, who are technically in the east now, thought was the only east.

What does Chinese immigrants have to do with the word "oriental"? That's an odd thing to inject into this conversation. Did the trans-continental railway (which we have a similar thing in Canada that used slave labor to create) use the word "oriental" as a pejorative? Do you have links to any readings about this?

This is what I'm curious about. People are saying it's imperialistic, harmful, etc. where did that harm come from. Is there any readings about this? What is so wrong with sharing sources? I thought we were all about discussion and education.

Your kidding right? Now I have to prove why I'm offended by providing sources of literature?

 

[Volotaire]

I would never have guessed that Oriental could be considered a slur. Interesting.

 

[Sketchbag]

Your kidding right? Now I have to prove why I'm offended by providing sources of literature?

Well, yes, I am asking for why oriental is an offensive term. This would be well documented if it was. I am asking for literature that deals with this word. Is it wrong of me to ask?

 

[Messofanego]

Can you quote me posts that aren't are, "I find it offensive, just be more sensitive", etc.? I'm looking for historical information on how it was used in a way that it became offensive. I've read the thread, I don't believe anyone has shown any of that. We discussed how the OP weirdly equated "oriental" to "nigger", her previous threads, her Craigslist thread, ramen noodles, then back to square one.

Being offended isn't the source of the offense. There has to be a source of why it's offensive. We have documented usage of the word "nigger" so we know why it's offensive, the same for "wetback", "porch monkey", "chink", etc.. Where is the information for "oriental"? The only information so far is that some Asians found it to be label them as "other" in the early '50s and '60s.

I'm guessing you read up the Wiki entry about the term. Where does it refer to people and not just to things from Asia, as being a contemporary-wise acceptable term to use?

Would you find it acceptable to call people "exotic"?

 

[Infinite]

Your kidding right? Now I have to prove why I'm offended by providing sources of literature?

Just disregard him. He's not really interested in history of the word.

 

[travisbickle]

Can you link me to books or studies that delve more into this? I've been reading up on it, and it doesn't seem to be anything imperialistic or sub human but a name for a region people, who are technically in the east now, thought was the only east.

What does Chinese immigrants have to do with the word "oriental"? That's an odd thing to inject into this conversation. Did the trans-continental railway (which we have a similar thing in Canada that used slave labor to create) use the word "oriental" as a pejorative? Do you have links to any readings about this?

This is what I'm curious about. People are saying it's imperialistic, harmful, etc. where did that harm come from. Is there any readings about this? What is so wrong with sharing sources? I thought we were all about discussion and education.

I mentioned 'Orientalism' Edward Said on the first page

amazon link

 

[Sketchbag]

I'm guessing you read up the Wiki entry about the term. Where does it refer to people and not just to things from Asia, as being a contemporary-wise acceptable term to use?

Would you find it acceptable to call people "exotic"?

Yes. I've read the wiki article and others because I wasn't that knowledgeable about the history of the offense, yeah, I did some reading on it. I am now asking for more.

It's mostly due to its pairing with "Studies" in universities. We had Oriental Studies so it became commonplace to pair the two. Orient meas "east". You can use it as a descriptor for anything in the east to show it's from the east. You can flip the question and say where does it say you cannot use it to describe peoples. The answer could be the same, it couldn't, but all things aside studying the east includes its peoples and thus are subject to the descriptor.

Calling someone exotic is based on life experience. A person in White Horse will probably call someone from Afghanistan exotic if they found them attractive. Is it wrong objectively? I doubt it. Would people be offended? Sure, some would. You have to ask yourself if its an over reaction to something harmless and you're over thinking it or if it has legit harm to it. Exotic doesn't do enough harm for it to be considered, to me, harmful.

 

[Volotaire]

I'm curious, what you you guys think about the term 'coolie'?

I've never even heard of this word.

 

[Sketchbag]

I mentioned 'Orientalism' Edward Said on the first page

amazon link

I might have missed that. Sorry. Ordered.

Any other readings?

 

[kurisu_1974]

Your kidding right? Now I have to prove why I'm offended by providing sources of literature?

I think the burden in this case is indeed on the offended. Or is it OK to be offended for shits and giggles?

 

[shadowsdarknes]

What about my oriental rugs?

 

[Infinite]

I've never even heard of this word.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolie

 

[PJV3]

Besides the UK usage element, he was being a dick because he had only just met you and knew you didn't like the word, if he knew you were of chinese heritage etc then he's being a racist dick, Like calling someone a pakistani when you know they come from Sri Lanka.

At the end of the day he's been living in the US for decades and should know better.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I think the burden in this case is indeed on the offended. Or is it OK to be offended for shits and giggles?

offended

for shits and giggles