I do t see why being English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish is incompatible with being British, I think being British is great, I look at the EU and laugh we effectively did that 300 years ago they're just copy cats! When you look at what Britain accomplished as a team it's pretty impressive.
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Scottish Independence Referendum |OT| 18 September 2014 [Up: NO wins]
- Thread starter Ape Gone Insane
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Napoleonthechimp
Member
Only the English being genetic mongrels is - from what I understand - a myth. For instance there is a definite Norse ancestry in Scotland just as there is in England.
Scots being pure blooded Celts (a cultural identity, but who were also originally from Europe by the way) is a bit silly. Even if the Scots and Irish were 100% celts (which they aren't), the Celts were originally from Europe and displaced the original inhabitants of the British isles.
Villifying the English for being mongrel invaders is absurd given that is precisely what everyone else is.
But I'm sure the nutty elements of the yes campaign will claim the Scots and English are VASTLY different on every level - except that isn't actually true.
Scots being pure blooded Celts (a cultural identity, but who were also originally from Europe by the way) is a bit silly. Even if the Scots and Irish were 100% celts (which they aren't), the Celts were originally from Europe and displaced the original inhabitants of the British isles.
Villifying the English for being mongrel invaders is absurd given that is precisely what everyone else is.
But I'm sure the nutty elements of the yes campaign will claim the Scots and English are VASTLY different on every level - except that isn't actually true.
nelsonroyale
Member
Ooops. DP
nelsonroyale
Member
Well, Daily Mail:
Seems appropriate. If this goes through and they leave the EU then...
Napoleonthechimp: Who said that? Nowhere I have read or heard? Why make up hypothetical arguments, nobody I have heard has said that. As you say, if someone has they are just being a crackpot. Scottish people have probably some Norman blood like the English. Culturally and genetically all people in the world are mixed at some point, even if it is between different tribes. It is no big deal. Cultural purity is a naive myth. It just depends on where you draw the arbitrary line. That is not say that looking at genetic make-up of people isn't interesting (http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-07/04/genetic-mapping-britain)
I'm 2000% gorgie for 200000 years.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
More Fun To Compute was talking about national purity and that is what I was responding to.
I understand there may be a political difference and a rightful demand to control the economic fate of their regions (the latter case has also been made for the north of England by the way - because that economy has also stagnated) but for anyone to claim there is a significant difference between say... the south of Scotland and the north of England? I don't buy it. There have just been too many centuries of people moving back and forth between the border.
One of my Scottish friends who grew up in Hong Kong, lived in London for years (in fact he still does) and who is in a long term relationship with an English girl is now staunchly for the yes campaign. Will he ever move to Scotland? Not likely. Does he really consider himself Scottish? He admits: Not really.
That also brings up another issue I have a problem with: Pro nationalists who vote yes but then retain dual-citizenship who are then likely to remain in Britain. They care so much about an independent Scotland but not enough to bother living there, contributing to the economy or even voting in Scottish matters after all of this is done with.
Will these dual citizens then retain the right to vote on matters that effect me in England? If they live in an English constituency then yes (although I imagine this could be up for debate - I doubt people will strip them of that right). But then again they could then move back up to Scotland, register there and effect changes where the English can't interfere. To me this is like having your cake and eating it whilst others watch you from the other side of the border using a pair of binoculars.
If they truly cared about an independent Scotland then they should be willing to relinquish their British citizenship, because otherwise they get to benefit from it whilst other - Non Scots - have to deal with the fallout without having any say over the matter. No wonder those people are for the yes vote. It seems like there will be no real difference for them in their day to day lives.
I believe a huge number of Welsh people living in the South Wales corridor came from England due the population explosion due to the mining industry. Hence the lack of welsh speaking until you go far west.
There were less than 1000 people living in Rhondda 150 years ago. My Wife who is as Welsh as they come (shes from just south of Bargoed) can trace her family back to England 200 years ago.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
It irritates me immensely when people who don't have to deal with the fallout of this vote weigh in with their opinion.
With all due respect: Mind your own business.
This referendum will impact Catalonia. In practical terms, probably as much or more than it will impact England.
Peston states the obvious: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29185319
Actually Scotland could affect me a lot, we have another independence process here and although isn't very comparable can mark a valuous precedence.
I think we are building a country called Europe and I will to this country be the most democratic and freedom that could be, and this for sure isn't the way that actual European states are.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Are you kidding me?! More than England? We have to deal with it all directly. Spain (and Catalonia) won't have to deal with any of the financial side of things anything until Scotland become a member of the EU.
So you're only interested in furthering your own political goals? I see.
Have you ever lived in Britain? Have you set foot here? Do you have an informed opinion regarding the economic, political and cultural ramifications that will result from this decision for the people of Britain?
moojito
Member
Since this whole thing was announced, it's been my opinion that the average Scot is in no position to make an informed decision about something like this. Now it's the week of the vote and I still think the same. At least we're not getting the mobile cinemas driving round showing Braveheart that I predicted.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Yeah, I'm just going to guess you don't know what's going on over there.
I don't weigh in on Catalonia's issues because I don't know anything about it. Them on the other hand? I can't say the same.
Only the elite should have a vote, the peasants know nothing of politics.
QuicheFontaine
Member
First thing this made me think of is "Britain has some of the safest roads in Europe..."
Edit:
Yuck, no.
The majority of the people of Scotland have been discussing this for the last year! I think they're pretty well informed by now.
moojito
Member
That's a bit extreme, but pretty much, aye.
As it is, it's like one side going "free money for everyone! vote yes!" and the other going "vote no or we all die". Also a bit extreme, but it seems like everyone's just trying to manipulate the uninformed with scare tactics on one side and promising the world on the other. Maybe I'm just blind to the facts hidden amongst all the arguiing. And I consider myself one of the average ignorant Scots above, for the record.
More Fun To Compute
Member
I was responding to the idea of their being some sort of wikka man type English national identity where we all wear folksy national dress and exclude any outsiders from coming in claiming to be English after only living here for 20 years or being born in the country. I don't really want to mess with the Welsh or anything they might burn down my house.
As I said, I think the independence of this regions will afect the whole Europe because we tend to be more like a country and less like a bunch of states. But we can decide if the power will be more centralized or more distributed.
Of course I have been to Britain and indeed I know the type of economy that have England and what type have Scotland. That's one of the reasons the catalan process and the scotland one are not equal, they are very diferent economies.
What @Sir Fragula I think want to say is that, financialy, will affect much more that one of the four "engine" regions of Europe leave the EU than Scotland could affect you and your pocket. Just because capitalism economy is based on exports and producing goods. Can Europe throw away one of this regions in this times?
@QuicheFontaine
That's what I think, at least its what in the previous 15 years have been happening.
Even some say that we are already a country because "real" countries are delimited by central banks.
Wtf? God forbid we democratically decide our own future best leave that to our Oxbridge betters yeah?
Napoleonthechimp
Member
That right there may be one of the distinct differences between the British isles and mainland Europe. I'm pro EU but not to the point where I would ever want an actual European country.
That is why I am also pro-Britain but also pro-British reform (allowing for regions to have full autonomy so they can govern their own political and economical future). That includes England, Wales and NI by the way.
moojito
Member
How many people are going to be voting one way or the other for absolutely no reason than all their mates are voting that way, without knowing anything about any of the issues? I don't understand how the vote of someone who is saying "I'm voting yes because fuck the English!" is worth anything. How can that voice potentially decide the future of my country?
This is why I normally don't vote.
Federalism would be awesome, Whitehall would never allow it.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
In time it could happen. At the very least it would happen for Scotland way before it did anywhere else. If the no vote passes by the skin of it's teeth then that would scare the shit out the political elite because they do not want to lose Scotland.
Which excites me because it could lead to greater reform for everyone else. Scotland going independent? Nah. That'll be the end of that.
The same way that "fuck the poor" and voting Tory, or fuck the rich and voting labour or even fuck the students and voting lib dem counts.
I haven't seen any "fuck the English" reasons for voting yes personally, they exist probably but are the minority and we don't get to discount someone's vote because it's dumb.
If there's a No vote then Scots need to drive a federalist movement against Whitehall.
Can't just take powers whilst declaring yourself part of the union. A No vote has to see Scotland push for power for other regions in the UK.
I dunno, their definition of devo max pretty much confirms to they will not give up their centralised levers easily.
Does IDS really want a more compassionate benefits system north of the border to work and show him as a fool? What about a Scotland not using austerity and flourishing? Osborne doesn't want that etc etc
Absolutely I'm 100% for England, Wales and N.I getting anything we get. In the case of England Regional federalism would make most sense due to population size.
Every person in the uk deserves a local govt that reflects their views.
Why? Once again, why are we English so fucking impotent that we need Scots to push reform for us? Why should Scots have to carry that weight?
QuicheFontaine
Member
It's not going to happen until voters in England are clamouring for it. So I can understand why Yes voters aren't holding their breath. I've certainly changed my opinion of it though, and I'd like to see some sensible proposals on the table.
I personally think independence would be a short-term disaster for both Scotland and the rUK, and a narrow No is likely to raise the issue of a federal UK (fUK) as a serious long term solution to the disunity both between Scotland and the rUK and within Scotland itself. My new slogan: "Vote No for fUK's sake".
Scotland's votes have very rarely mattered in the balance of the wishes of the English electorate.
Indeed only twice in last 70 odd years.
CyclopsRock
Member
Thrice - people always seem to forget any 2010. We'd have no Nick Clegg without Scotland.
(He would literally cease to exist).
Napoleonthechimp
Member
That is why the SNP and people like Alex Salmond (no matter how much I dislike the man himself) need to stay in politics. They need to always push forward.
As I said previously: I have disdain for Little Englanders because they have no appetite for reform. The future isn't with them. It's with the politically engaged people in Scotland. When that barrier falls and it is discovered to actually work it could lead to a more politically motivated population elsewhere.
Of course the alternative would be for Britain to be dissolved and for us to throw our lot in with a - future - federalised Europe. Some may say that is scaremongering but in this thread we've got at least one mainland European who thinks a European country is the future.
I already thought he didn't exist.
Thing is we'd need a very close no vote so the threat of independence is still viable, if we don't get that they'll toss a few crumbs and call it job done.
That will result in the newly interested voters becoming disinterested because "nothing changes no matter what they do". Job done for Westminster, back to chasing after right wing marginals on promises of who can be more cruel to the vulnerable.
Now I know why I can't take you seriously. Sainsburys is shite. Waitrose is where it's at.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
It sounds like you've already made up your mind about it anyway.
I live in a place in England that is completely apathetic so that potential future you're worried about is the reality I live now.
Also this only works if Salmond's plan for a currency union (with a country who is applying austerity methods) actually goes through the way he wants. Without it the entire economic foundation of Scotland is on shaky ground. And this is coming from that credit suisse report combined with Salmond's radical u-turn when it comes to his anti-pound schtick.
I used to work in Sainsburys so I'm biased. I prefer their approach to customer service.
Also, Waitrose is for the upper crust elite.
Meh I hope we do but the polls are out of whack for a few reasons.
1 It's a referendum that isn't strictly bound by party lines that these companies base everything off of
2. There is a huge influx of newly interested voters that nobody can really account for, the so called "missing million"
3 huge number of undecideds
I was talking about within a federalised uk, it's one of the reasons I do not see them giving up powers easily. Who wants their policies thoroughly discredited within their own country?
That makes sense I guess. I can't wait to see what happens. This referendum has struck me as completely odd, people who oppose EU membership seem to be furiously in favour of keeping the union together while people who are pro-EU seem overly eager to separate. I find it really bizarre. I also find it astonishing that people want to separate when there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of animosity between the kingdoms...I mean maybe I'm just ignorant of the whole thing but I didn't think things over there were that bad to warrant significant change. I don't know...just seems really odd.
It makes sense when you see we are closer to the eu (especially Scandinavia) than America politically. Whereas England is generally closer to America than the eu socially.
Actually twice in practical terms. 1964 and 2010, the 3rd time was 1974 where Scottish MPs gave Labour a wafer-thin majority (319 vs 316) they wouldn’t have had from the rest of the UK alone, although they’d still have been the largest party and able to command a majority in a pact with the Liberals, as they eventually did in reality.
And even in 1964 the Tories would have had a majority of 1 if Scottish MP were excluded rather than the Labour majority of 4 which imploded within 18 months. The Tories would have probably not made it even that far.
Treasury ringing round everyone to speak up and they'll ignore their tax dodging.
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