BRAND NEW ZELDA pictures! yes newer than yesterday's
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Littleberu
Banned
Cartoon Filter. Cel Shaded is when the shading of the model/world is influenced by the lighting source.
Reviewers are not, typically, graphical designers, and latch on to the newest buzzword because it is popular, not because they inherently understand it.
DC2 is not cel-shaded, whatever Cassamassina or Perry or Kasavin or whoever might have thought at the time.
Edit - Personally, I'm quite happy with "toon-shading" as a layman's catch-all for both cel-shading and other cartoonish graphical techniques.
DC2 is not cel-shaded, whatever Cassamassina or Perry or Kasavin or whoever might have thought at the time.
Edit - Personally, I'm quite happy with "toon-shading" as a layman's catch-all for both cel-shading and other cartoonish graphical techniques.
the_zombie_luke
Member
I don't think I've ever seen this in any game, ever. :lolDark Dragon said:
hmmm
aperfectt00l
Member
http://www.jeux-france.com/Webmasters/Images/3024320050429_183749_0_big.jpg
...when i first saw this i said to myself "damn it link's fuckin all sorts of ho's...Zora, Malon, Zelda....whoever this new one is...link is the king of pimps!" :lol
...when i first saw this i said to myself "damn it link's fuckin all sorts of ho's...Zora, Malon, Zelda....whoever this new one is...link is the king of pimps!" :lol
Father_Brain
Banned
silver said:
Uh, that art is a movie-poster-style collage... it doesn't need to be from a consistent perspective.
midnightguy
Member
the best realtime "toon shading" i ever saw on current-gen consoles was the *techdemo* of Luigi's Mansion.. that blew the living hell out of Wind Waker's cel-shaded toon shading.
"cel shading" describes any number of graphics techniques used to make 3d graphics look like cel animation. if you're going to claim that dark cloud 2 isn't cel-shaded because it uses detailed textures, you might as well claim that wind waker isn't cel-shaded because it lacks outlines. in fact, outlines are a more inherent quality of cel animation than solid colors.
drohne said:
You do not know what you're talking about. Cel shading is a graphical technique, I believe.
You take a solid color, apply lighting, and take the number of colors displayed down to two. Black outlines has nothing to do with it.
I'll do it in photoshop really quick.
no. cel-shading doesn't refer to any specific techique, and and outlines are a component of what cel-shading refers to. do a google search on the definition of cel-shading. you'll find a number of resources. i've been through the argument a dozen times, and i won't go through it again.
drohne said:
:lol Yes it does!
DC2's graphics is clearly a tradtional texturing technique with textures applied to it for effect only.
Cell Shading means as the light source changes, so does the 'cell shaded' components of the polygon. The shades are not static, they are not texture maps. Dark outlines is not neccessary, Sega used it for effect in Jet Set Radio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cel_shading
"The cel-shading process starts with typical 3D modelling under the hood. The difference occurs when a cel-shaded object is drawn onscreen. The rendering engine only selects a few shades of each color for the object, producing a flat look. This is not the same as using only a few shades of texture for an object, as lighting and other environmental factors would come into play and ruin the effect. Therefore, cel-shading is often implemented as an additional rendering pass after all other rendering operations are completed.
In order to draw the black ink lines outlining an object's contours, the back-face culling is inverted to draw back-faced triangles with black-coloured vertices. The vertices must be drawn multiple times with a slight change in translation to make the lines "thick". This produces a black-shaded silhouette. The back-face culling is then set back to normal to draw the shading and optional textures of the object. Z-buffering does the magic because the back-faces always lie deeper in the scene than the front-faces, so the result is the object drawn with black outlines, even contours that reside inside the object's surface in screen space."
"The cel-shading process starts with typical 3D modelling under the hood. The difference occurs when a cel-shaded object is drawn onscreen. The rendering engine only selects a few shades of each color for the object, producing a flat look. This is not the same as using only a few shades of texture for an object, as lighting and other environmental factors would come into play and ruin the effect. Therefore, cel-shading is often implemented as an additional rendering pass after all other rendering operations are completed.
In order to draw the black ink lines outlining an object's contours, the back-face culling is inverted to draw back-faced triangles with black-coloured vertices. The vertices must be drawn multiple times with a slight change in translation to make the lines "thick". This produces a black-shaded silhouette. The back-face culling is then set back to normal to draw the shading and optional textures of the object. Z-buffering does the magic because the back-faces always lie deeper in the scene than the front-faces, so the result is the object drawn with black outlines, even contours that reside inside the object's surface in screen space."
thank you, bigboss. the salient points of that definition are that:
1. there's more than one way to generate the effect olimario describes; "cel-shading" does not refer to a particular graphics process
2. black outlines are a component of cel-shading
the wikipedia link also provides a more general definition of cel-shading: "Cel-shaded animation or cel-shading is the art of turning computer graphics into cartoon and comic book style art and attempting to mimic a more stylistic cartoon style, such as charcoal, watercolors or etching."
here's my understanding: any game that uses rendering techniques to create the subjective appearance of 2d artwork is cel-shaded. this covers jet set radio, wind waker, and dark cloud 2, in spite of their varying approaches. it doesn't cover, say, kingdom hearts 2, which looks like cel animation, but uses no special rendering techniques to achieve this effect.
1. there's more than one way to generate the effect olimario describes; "cel-shading" does not refer to a particular graphics process
2. black outlines are a component of cel-shading
the wikipedia link also provides a more general definition of cel-shading: "Cel-shaded animation or cel-shading is the art of turning computer graphics into cartoon and comic book style art and attempting to mimic a more stylistic cartoon style, such as charcoal, watercolors or etching."
here's my understanding: any game that uses rendering techniques to create the subjective appearance of 2d artwork is cel-shaded. this covers jet set radio, wind waker, and dark cloud 2, in spite of their varying approaches. it doesn't cover, say, kingdom hearts 2, which looks like cel animation, but uses no special rendering techniques to achieve this effect.
Cel-Shading is a rendering technique. Any other use of it is just for marketing purposes. By Drohne's definition, even non Cel-Shaded games can be called cel-shaded if they textured it so that it looks like a cel-shaded game.
DC2 cheated on this by rendering black outlines and flat shaded polygons then applying stylized textures on the polygon. As to how the dark outline is achieves is open to question is dark outlines is not a feature of cel shading, it's something you can do with cell shading but not exclusively.
The meat of cel shading is exactly what DC2 avoided, which is to shade the polygons in such as way that the colors are not gradients but stark shades which is lit in real time. In that context, DC2 is clearly not cel shaded since it went out of its way to cover it up with textures.
DC2 cheated on this by rendering black outlines and flat shaded polygons then applying stylized textures on the polygon. As to how the dark outline is achieves is open to question is dark outlines is not a feature of cel shading, it's something you can do with cell shading but not exclusively.
The meat of cel shading is exactly what DC2 avoided, which is to shade the polygons in such as way that the colors are not gradients but stark shades which is lit in real time. In that context, DC2 is clearly not cel shaded since it went out of its way to cover it up with textures.
You know, I'm basing all of this on a website now defunct where a graphics designer explained what I did earlier as cel shading. He even provided the same picture example.
If what I said isn't cel shading, then what is that processed called?
And what is the process of black outlining called?
nail on head
If what I said isn't cel shading, then what is that processed called?
And what is the process of black outlining called?
Deku said:
nail on head
drohne said:
So I have one source (granted its not online any longer) saying that what I posted WAS cel shading.
And you have one source that says it falls under cel shading, but isn't cel shading itself.
I'm inclined to go with Deku Tree on this one. Not like it really matters.
drohne said:
Lol no. Cel-shading is a SPECIFIC rending technique just like gourard shading that was used a lot in the 90s.
If a developer decided to cheap out on a graphic technique and apply a texture that simulates the effect, then it's not 'real' just like how we distinguish between pre-lit textures and textures that are lit in real-time. The former is pre-rendered to have the light source reflect on a certain way, and it worked on the 32/64 bit platforms, but that's not the same as textures that are lit in real time and reflect light dynamically as the light source changes.
oli said:
It doesn't, but im always curious when Drohne is involved in a Nintendo discussion
gouraud shading is exactly what cel-shading is not like. gouraud shading refers to one specific mathematically-defined process. cel-shading refers subjectively to a set of techniques. even the particular aspect of cel-shading that olimario describes can be achieved by more than one process.
it's depressing but unsurprising that deku thinks this is really about nintendo.
it's depressing but unsurprising that deku thinks this is really about nintendo.
Amir0x said:
For one, forcing an issue that is wrong. The wiki entry doesn't even help at all, it describes how the dark outline effect is achieved with cel-shading but it's quite clear in describing it as a rendering technique and not a glorified cartoon maker of dark outlines. Cel shading is not about dark outlines, if you haven't been clear about that yet.
As for my edited comment, the sentence was truncated when I added the smiley. I'll go and fix it right after this.
drohne said:
No
Cel-shading is a rendering technique. There may be different ways to achieve it, but DC2 doesn't meet the criteria, since it doesn't even bother to do what the Wiki article describes it does, which is to break down colors into stark shades and not plaster over the polys with texturing then go over it with lighting effects. Well you do have a history to trolling but in anycase, you're still wrong. :lol
Thanks. I'm sure he'll just tell you that it's your definition of cell-shading and go on believing his fantasy. Looks like Amir is now onboard as well.Ecrofirt said:
it's not that i can't see the difference, or that i don't appreciate the difference. it's that the term "cel-shading" does not refer to that difference. based on the definitions i've read, dark cloud 2 and wind waker are both cel-shaded. if you'd like to link to a competing definition -- rather than referring to old gaf conversations, or to a graphics designer on some other message board, or to your graphics design experience -- then i would be happy to read it.
Jeeeeeeesus. Drohne, just go away. BTW, do you work in the gaming industry? are you a graphic artist? do you work with 3-D? if it's none of the above, please spare us. You're being linked right now at a private designers forum and they're all laughing at you.
P.S. I didn't link you.
P.S. I didn't link you.
drohne said:
You're being linked right now at a private designers forum
Please read that sentence again. In anycase, Read the posts above, its been explained to you quite clearly. I know you are proud by nature. I've never seen to apologize for anything or admit you're wrong at anything. Anyways, next post from me on this thread will be on-topic.
(pssst. now's a good time to go away)
P.S. HKK your image isn't working :=/
psycho_snake
I went to WAGs boutique and all I got was a sniff
Im guessing that there will be no voice acting right? Im not so sure if Im happy or sad about it. Voice acting needs to be done well or else it will ruin the game, so if Nintendo got the right voices and good actors, not like the ones they used for SMS, then the game could turn out great, but Zelda without voice acting has worked very well and there is nothing wrong with it, so I wouldnt mind at all if they didnt include voice acting.
At the moment, the thing that has really interested me is the horse-back fighting. Everytime I see a screen with Link on epona fighing one of the bad guys on those warthogs or whever they are called, I get so exited because it looks so cool.
I also agree with Amir aboiut how Zelda looks like a proper women. usually in action adventure games or especially RPG's, you som,etimes find little children with tits like pamela anderson.
And just to add to the cel-shading arguement, is SMT: DDS cel shaded. I think that A Zelda game in that style would be really cool.
At the moment, the thing that has really interested me is the horse-back fighting. Everytime I see a screen with Link on epona fighing one of the bad guys on those warthogs or whever they are called, I get so exited because it looks so cool.
I also agree with Amir aboiut how Zelda looks like a proper women. usually in action adventure games or especially RPG's, you som,etimes find little children with tits like pamela anderson.
And just to add to the cel-shading arguement, is SMT: DDS cel shaded. I think that A Zelda game in that style would be really cool.
that's...certainly convenient. i'm only too happy to be laughed at -- i'm just a layman trying to work out what cel-shading refers to. when your private design forum works out a definition of cel shading that includes banded real-time lighting but excludes black outlines, maybe they'll let you post it here.
psycho_snake
I went to WAGs boutique and all I got was a sniff
I dont really care about the grunts and whatnot, I was referring to conversations with voice acting. i wouldnt mind it as long as they don not make Link talk. One of the great thinbgs about Zelda is how Link doesnt talk or he does but you only hear the response of the person he is talking to. It does actually help you feel as though you are Link himself.Deku said:
psycho_snake
I went to WAGs boutique and all I got was a sniff
The 3D approach is what makkes me like the graphics so much. I think that the game looks incredible when you play it and I would love to see a Zelda game with Graphics like that,m especially with a grown up Link. If Nintendo ever decied they want to use cel-shading again, I hope it is something like SMT and not Zelda: WWhkk said:I haven't played the games but from what I've seen in pics like this:
My answer would be yes, in some form or another. The difference is however, Shin Megami Tensei: Noctoure and DDS use a more 3d approach. But looking at the lighting and shading, it uses a cel shading approach.
Ofcourse, this is just based on images. I haven't seen the game in motion nor played it for myself.
