Support NeoGAF

[Walshicus]

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/independent-scotland-could-be-aaa-rated-standard-poors/

On the other hand, BBC is just becoming an embarrassment now...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av512z9ySow - Godwin alert
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152494209839221&fref=nf - convenient malfunction

 

[finowns]

For a more interesting world this has to happen.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Have you done any research into what your situation would be in the event of independence? I'm asking cos my girlfriend is German and she was afraid that if Scotland wasn't admitted to the EU right away she'd have to leave Scotland, although a look at what the white paper proposes regarding immigration makes it pretty clear that wouldn't be an issue. Scotland isn't kicking EU citizens out if it doesn't get immediate membership.

I'm also a bit concerned about what it would mean for my capability to leave Scotland in the future, because I've always wanted to make a life for myself out of Scotland. I'm voting yes because I think it's the right thing to do despite that, but the idea of people being brought back here is very sad - although, also, sounds quite crazy on it's face so I'm curious as to what would actually happen. I mean, you have a UK passport. Wouldn't there be a process post-yes that would allow you to retain that so you could remain where you are? They aren't going to start calling expats across the world back by the plane load because they were born in Scotland, surely.

Where is the precendent to even assume this would happen? Who is coming up with this stuff?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

It seems to me like the Yes campaign had initial answers to all of that, which were then refuted by the opposing campaign, UK government and their mouthpieces. They refuse to have a meaningful discussion about what they positions they would start neogotiating from because it doesn't serve their purpose to campaign on the basis of what they would do if they lost.

If a Yes vote wins, then the campaign will be over and there will be nothing to do except prepare for the reality of an independent Scotland and maybe then we'll get some actual dialogue going about how these things will be decided. Until then, the uncertainty is just an element of the campaigning process.

Because the SNP promised things to the Scottish people that they did not have the authority to deliver. I don't think the reality of political independence has really sunk in for those people; when you willingly relinquish your rights as a subject of the union then discussions simply become a business negotiation between two separate parties. There would be no inherent right to give Scotland any of the things it thinks (that being the key word) belongs to them.

At that point the UK will act in their own interests which includes not curtailing to every demand Salmond and co have promised the Scottish people.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Because the SNP promised things to the Scottish people that they did not have the authority to deliver. I don't think the reality of political independence has really sunk in for those people; when you willingly relinquish your rights as a subject of the union then discussions simply become a business negotiation between two separate parties. There would be no inherent right to give Scotland any of the things it thinks (that being the key word) belongs to them.

At that point the UK will act in their own interests which includes not curtailing to every demand Salmond and co have promised the Scottish people.

I don't think you understand. Once it is established that independence will go ahead, it isn't the hands of the UK government to stipulate all terms of negotiation. It will be a negotiation, albeit between a larger more powerful country and a smaller one.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I don't think you understand. Once it is established that independence will go ahead, it isn't the hands of the UK government to stipulate all terms of negotiation. It will be a negotiation, albeit between a larger more powerful country and a smaller one.

Let's take a look at the currency union: One side says yes (and thus is willing to give complete monetary control to another country), the other (who is actually the one entirely responsible for it all) says no.

Salmond promises things he cannot deliver (and this is the financial core of your country we're talking about here). He's sold the voters on empty promises just like all bloody politicians.

Rejection hardens the heart and I imagine the population of the UK won't be so eager to willingly give away things without any say on the matter.

 

[Terrell]

Should Scotland choose independence (as unlikely as it seems), I would hope they'd eventually get rid of the monarchy, just as I hope Canada, Australia, and New Zealand eventually get rid of it.

As a Canadian, I kind of wish the monarchy stepped in a bit more. Our Governor Generals have been pushover figureheads and let our current Prime Minister get away with some of the most undemocratic bullshit fathomable. If the GG had some actual teeth, maybe we would be in a better spot.

Commonwealth nations like that there's an emergency check & balance in the form of a GG, sort of like a 3rd party arbitration. In theory, it should work in our favor. But in practice? Ehh, not so much.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I find it hilarious that Scotland wants to be independent but also enter into a currency union with England and get dual-citizenship with Britain. So, why not just stay in the UK then?

Also, seeing as how the UK's only nuclear submarine base is in Scotland, either they also get to stay under the UK's nuclear umbrella, or BOTH putative countries will have to disarm their nuclear capability entirely. This whole thing is a hilarious clusterfuck.

 

[John Dunbar]

As a Canadian, I kind of wish the monarchy stepped in a bit more. Our Governor Generals have been pushover figureheads and let our current Prime Minister get away with some of the most undemocratic bullshit fathomable. If the GG had some actual teeth, maybe we would be in a better spot.

Commonwealth nations like that there's an emergency check & balance in the form of a GG, sort of like a 3rd party arbitration. In theory, it should work in our favor. But in practice? Ehh, not so much.

if your problem is useless figureheads, i don't think the british monarchy is going to do you much good.

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

Also, seeing as how the UK's only nuclear submarine base is in Scotland, either they also get to stay under the UK's nuclear umbrella, or BOTH putative countries will have to disarm their nuclear capability entirely. This whole thing is a hilarious clusterfuck.

Nope, rUK just moves them south.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

For a more interesting world this has to happen.

Cos that's a great reason to do this >_>

 

[RulkezX]

I find it hilarious that Scotland wants to be independent but also enter into a currency union with England and get dual-citizenship with Britain. So, why not just stay in the UK then?

Also, seeing as how the UK's only nuclear submarine base is in Scotland, either they also get to stay under the UK's nuclear umbrella, or BOTH putative countries will have to disarm their nuclear capability entirely. This whole thing is a hilarious clusterfuck.

Where are you from?

 

[Walshicus]

Let's take a look at the currency union: One side says yes (and thus is willing to give complete fiscal control to another country), the other (who is actually the one entirely responsible for it all) says no.

Yes, but the Unionites are saying no not out of any genuine assessment of the relative merits, but as a bargaining position to try and first influence the vote and second alter the terms of negotiation follow a Yes. If Sterling wants stability, it will *need* Scottish oil export sales to take place in it.

It's why the currency nonsense has largely been dismissed in Scotland - because the 'worst case scenario' Westminster are peddling requires a degree of self-harming irrationality that even Westminster can't be expected to sign up to.

 

[Terrell]

if your problem is useless figureheads, i don't think the british monarchy is going to do you much good.

Elizabeth II is still of more use than our Governor Generals. By a LONG country mile. So that should tell you how fucking useless they've been.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Yes, but the Unionites are saying no not out of any genuine assessment of the relative merits, but as a bargaining position to try and first influence the vote and second alter the terms of negotiation follow a Yes. If Sterling wants stability, it will *need* Scottish oil export sales to take place in it.

It's why the currency nonsense has largely been dismissed in Scotland - because the 'worst case scenario' Westminster are peddling requires a degree of self-harming irrationality that even Westminster can't be expected to sign up to.

And what about in the eventuality that Scotland ("the pound is a millstone around Scotland's neck. An independent Scotland would adopt the Euro.") renege's on the deal to the detriment of the UK.

Do you think nationalists who are for independence will want to allow the UK to keep control of their financial system in the long run? I highly doubt it. But what I do think is that the UK financial institutions will do everything in their power to protect their own interests.

Just because we were (sort of but not really) buddies for 300 years doesn't mean it will go swimmingly for an independent Scotland.

All of this seems like the SNP is trying to demand things from the UK. And as someone south of the border who has no say on the matter I find myself deeply resenting the SNP and yes voters in general because of it.

EDIT: Of course they want to alter the terms of a negotiation in the event of a Yes vote. Scotland will be a foreign nation with resources that the UK wants. But a negotiation is NOT a guarantee. But yet the SNP are deluding the voters by treating it like it is a foregone conclusion.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Yes, but the Unionites are saying no not out of any genuine assessment of the relative merits, but as a bargaining position to try and first influence the vote and second alter the terms of negotiation follow a Yes. If Sterling wants stability, it will *need* Scottish oil export sales to take place in it.

It's why the currency nonsense has largely been dismissed in Scotland - because the 'worst case scenario' Westminster are peddling requires a degree of self-harming irrationality that even Westminster can't be expected to sign up to.

There's harm either way (which is why No voters don't want it to come to this at all, by keeping the union), but you've got to weigh the balance of harm. I'll direct you, and anyone else, to George Osborne's speech on the matter:

The value of the pound lies in the entire monetary system underpinning it.

A system that includes the Bank of England and the tens of millions of UK taxpayers who stand behind that financial system

It is a system that is supported by political union, banking union and automatic transfers of public spending across the United Kingdom.

A vote to leave the UK is also a vote to leave these unions and those transfers and those monetary arrangements.

That’s part of the choice that people in Scotland are being asked to make.

There’s no legal reason why the rest of the UK would need to share its currency with Scotland, as the Treasury’s publication today clearly shows.

So when the nationalists say “the pound is as much ours as the rest of the UKs” are they really saying that an independent Scotland could insist that taxpayers in a nation it has just voted to leave…

had to continue to back the currency of this new foreign country

had to consider the circumstances of this foreign country when setting their interest rates

stand behind the banks of this foreign country as a lender of last resort

or stand behind its foreign government when it needed public spending support.

That is patently absurd.

That doesn't sound irrational to me.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Nope, rUK just moves them south.

Nuclear submarine bases don't just spring up out of the ground. Nor are they free of charge, someone's got to pay to build a new one and people need to build it.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I'll direct you, and anyone else, to George Osborne's speech on the matter:



That doesn't sound irrational to me.

I haven't read it before but that speech is pretty damning. And to think Alex Salmond teaches economics (then again he has never been the chancellor of the exchequer for the entire UK so his opinion might be less informed than he likes to think).

However it certainly has eased my worries about how the rest of the UK would deal with the economic fallout from a yes vote. But that is only assuming it doesn't end up with a currency union.

 

[funkypie]

The yes campaign and a chunk of their followers have been nothing but vile and bullies. Part of me wants them to lose just to see their stupid faces, especially that mug alex william wallace salmon. But apart of me wants them to go, sick of their moaning that they are somehow a ruled people and how they went about this yes campaign. It isn't hard to find stories Bout English people being racial abused in Scotland.

 

[Walshicus]

The yes campaign and a chunk of their followers have been nothing but vile and bullies. Part of me wants them to lose just to see their stupid faces, especially that mug alex william wallace salmon. But apart of me wants them to go, sick of their moaning that they are somehow a ruled people and how they went about this yes campaign. It isn't hard to find stories Bout English people being racial abused in Scotland.

Seriously? You've followed the two campaigns and found Yes to be the 'vile’ ones? Wow.

You know where I see the most hatred? From English people who're too damn stupid to view the independence movement as anything other than a personal attack on them. Who think this is about hating English instead of wanting better governance.

 

[8bit]

alex william wallace salmon.

...

 

[Lirlond]

In other news the BBC does it again!

(please excuse the awful filter on bottom picture)

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Seriously? You've followed the two campaigns and found Yes to be the 'vile’ ones? Wow.

You know where I see the most hatred? From English people who're too damn stupid to view the independence movement as anything other than a personal attack on them. Who think this is about hating English instead of wanting better governance.

After reading that speech they can have it, because they'll have a shit sandwich to swallow if the yes vote passes. And the sad thing is that they'll only have themselves to blame.

 

[funkypie]

Seriously? You've followed the two campaigns and found Yes to be the 'vile’ ones? Wow.

You know where I see the most hatred? From English people who're too damn stupid to view the independence movement as anything other than a personal attack on them. Who think this is about hating English instead of wanting better governance.

Yes. I know your pro independence so of course you would say that.

Better governance? Even the current Scottish Parliament is pointless. Manchester and Birmingham combined have larger population than scotland. Where's their own Parliament? Holyrod is nothing but a waste of Scottish taxpayers money currently. If they do get independence then it would have a purpose.

 

[May16]

I hope this doesn't ramp things up into like, all-out hostility in the region. :/

I also hope it doesn't ramp up the cost of a plane ticket. I've always wanted to see the highlands -- and was going to go in April of this year -- but had emergency surgery that wrecked those plans.

...Not that the big issue here is my plane tickets. Wow I just highly trivialized a pretty major issue right there. I can't believe what an asshole I am.

 

[AGoodODST]

In other news the BBC does it again!

(please excuse the awful filter on bottom picture)

I seen that this morning. I was actually at Buchanan Street yesterday and seen the fucking BBC there filming so they deliberately didn't show the footage and showed that picture instead. They may have shown it since but I doubt it.

There is a march today from George Square to the BBC building in protest of their bias.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I seen that this morning. I was actually at Buchanan Street yesterday and seen the fucking BBC there filming so they deliberately didn't show the footage and showed that picture instead. They may have shown it since but I doubt it.

There is a march today from George Square to the BBC building in protest of their bias.

Okay. So what do you think would come from that protest?

 

[Wrestlemania]

Okay. So what do you think would come from that protest?

Awareness?

 

[Sage00]

Yes. I know your pro independence so of course you would say that.

Better governance? Even the current Scottish Parliament is pointless. Manchester and Birmingham combined have larger population than scotland. Where's their own Parliament? Holyrod is nothing but a waste of Scottish taxpayers money currently. If they do get independence then it would have a purpose.

You now hold the record for two of the most ignorant, uninformed posts in the thread. Care to go for the treble? Or were you not afforded education (or perhaps prescription medicine) since you didn't have a 'pointless' parliament to make it available to you?

 

[EdibleExplosives]

The yes campaign and a chunk of their followers have been nothing but vile and bullies. Part of me wants them to lose just to see their stupid faces, especially that mug alex william wallace salmon. But apart of me wants them to go, sick of their moaning that they are somehow a ruled people and how they went about this yes campaign. It isn't hard to find stories Bout English people being racial abused in Scotland.

This post is fucking hilarious.

Yep, the Yes campaign truly has been fueled by English hating thugs. They're all up here standing on the border, waiting to attack any Englishman who dares cross.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Awareness?

To what end? They have fair coverage for the next few days? In your opinion what would that amount to?

This post is fucking hilarious.

Yep, the Yes campaign truly has been fueled by English hating thugs. They're all up here standing on the border, waiting to attack any Englishman who dares cross.

Here's the thing about that: It is Alex Salmond who is obfuscating the financial realities of an independent Scotland by hiding it behind a veil of nationalistic hyperbole. To the pro-Union people that is vile because Salmond knows all of that stuff (he teaches economics) but refuses to discuss it or explain the full consequences of independence to the people he's supposed to represent.

He'd know he'd lose if he put out the reality of it all for everyone to see so he chose to spin only the hopeful aspects of it in order to get his foot in the door. But I don't blame the Scottish people for it. If I was Scottish I'd probably end up on the yes side because I'd grasp any chance to alleviate myself of the cynicism that comes from the usual empty promises and lies that accompany politicians.

But sadly any chance to break through that barrier results in the "scaremongering" accusation. It is almost as if people in Scotland adamantly think that everything will change, but at the same time nothing will (the institutions they know and love).

To me it is astonishing that I have to go out of my way to try and present these facts to people who want nothing to do with me, all in order to prevent Salmond from leading them down into an economic abyss (the kind of thing that financial experts the world over have warned about).

 

[8bit]

Aberdeen today, somewhere I would have considered one of the more Union friendly cities.

 

[AGoodODST]

Okay. So what do you think would come from that protest?

Awareness? To show their displeasure at their tax payers money being used to fund a corporation that is supposed to be unbiased? What is the point of any protest?

What an ignorant question. I have no respect for people who are content to sit back and let things like this happen just because they are on the other "side".

 

[Aegus]

Aberdeen today, somewhere I would have considered one of the more Union friendly cities.

I've seen more Yes flags around the city than No.

I do think it's 50/50, but in my office there's more Yes than no in my area. Big oil major too.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Awareness? To show their displeasure at their tax payers money being used to fund a corporation that is supposed to be unbiased? What is he point of any protest?

What an ignorant question. I have no respect for people who are content to sit back and let things like this happen just because they are on the other "side".

Well it won't be you paying for the BBC after the fact will it?

 

[Wrestlemania]

To what end? They have fair coverage for the next few days? In your opinion what would that amount to?

It's the final days of campaigning if the lead up to the vote. If people believe that a major media outlet it is misrepresenting what's going then it makes sense that they should do anything within their power to spread that message.
Maybe it'll help, maybe it won't. The point is that surely you can see why they would try?

 

[Wrestlemania]

Well it won't be you paying for the BBC after the fact will it?

Err, yes? http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/what-will-happen-bbc

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Err, yes? http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/what-will-happen-bbc

Ah yes, more facts from the yes scotland website.

You'll be licensing it like most foreign nations and not paying for it directly. So no, it won't be a service created for the people of an independent Scotland.

It is also hilarious to me that they are proposing what the BBC should do. Are they seriously demanding what another country does again? Let's put this one in with the "we'll be getting a currency union!" baseless promises.

Let's make it clear: Just because it is on the Yes Scotland website does not mean it will happen (but I'm sure you'll still get to watch Doctor Who). That is especially true of anything that is not within their jurisdiction, or dependent on anything that requires negotiation (not a guarantee).

 

[defel]

Jesus the whole debate is so messy. I don't know where to start.

Best outcome for everyone is Scotland says no, and there is greater decentralization and devolution across the Union.

 

[AGoodODST]

Well it won't be you paying for the BBC after the fact will it?

That's irrelevant. We're paying for it now, you know, when the actual referendum campaign is taking place?

When they are spouting lies and misrepresentation in the final week of the campaign and they are getting away with it there is something very wrong.

 

[TheRealTalker]

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/independent-scotland-could-be-aaa-rated-standard-poors/

On the other hand, BBC is just becoming an embarrassment now...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av512z9ySow - Godwin alert
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152494209839221&fref=nf - convenient malfunction

Yeah I say that Nazi Germany comparison

seriously news journalism

 

[nelsonroyale]

To what end? They have fair coverage for the next few days? In your opinion what would that amount to?


Here's the thing about that: It is Alex Salmond who is obfuscating the financial realities of an independent Scotland by hiding it behind a veil of nationalistic hyperbole. To the pro-Union people that is vile because Salmond knows all of that stuff (he teaches economics) but refuses to discuss it or explain the full consequences of independence to the people he's supposed to represent.

He'd know he'd lose if he put out the reality of it all for everyone to see so he chose to spin only the hopeful aspects of it in order to get his foot in the door. But I don't blame the Scottish people for it. If I was Scottish I'd probably end up on the yes side because I'd grasp any chance to alleviate myself of the cynicism that comes from the usual empty promises and lies that accompany politicians.

But sadly any chance to break through that barrier results in the "scaremongering" accusation. It is almost as if people in Scotland adamantly think that everything will change, but at the same time nothing will (the institutions they know and love).

To me it is astonishing that I have to go out of my way to try and present these facts to people who want nothing to do with me, all in order to prevent Salmond from leading them down into an economic abyss (the kind of thing that financial experts the world over have warned about).

You seem naive...You criticise Alex Salmond for obfuscating or concealing elements of uncertainty in what he has promised...And let the other side go scot free...When the BT side have also made many equally uncertain and unverifiable assertions leading up to - you've got it - a decisive vote. Do you understand the concept of political expediancy? Or ends justify the means? For Salmond the first step is independence. He will concede on (not leaving NATO, monarchy, etc) and insinuate and assert without verifiable clarity (CU) in order to reach the maximum number of votes to achieve indepence. That is what he wants to hit at the moment, everything else is secondary from his perspective. On the other hand, the BT campaign is also trying to muddy the waters and will make all sorts of uncertain claims in order to influence public perceptions. This is politics. It is pretty shitting, but to hammer down on only one side...

 

[i_am_ben]

This is much closer than I thought it would be.

A nation once again

 

[8bit]

Quite liked this.

https://opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/robin-mcalpine/butterfly-rebellion

Down the street a little, a young woman and her pal see Ed, Douglas and Johann radiating away. Spontaneously, armed with a mobile phone an a pram they go for an interview. Douglas and Johann spout soundbites unrelated to the questions asked. Ed looks on blankly. Oh Britannia, once you conquered continents with your might. Now a lassie with a phone has you on the run.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Ah yes, more facts from the yes scotland website.

You'll be licensing it like most foreign nations and not paying for it directly. So no, it won't be a service created for the people of an independent Scotland.

It is also hilarious to me that they are proposing what the BBC should do. Are they seriously demanding what another country does again? Let's put this one in with the "we'll be getting a currency union!" baseless promises.

Let's make it clear: Just because it is on the Yes Scotland website does not mean it will happen (but I'm sure you'll still get to watch Doctor Who). That is especially true of anything that is not within their jurisdiction, or dependent on anything that requires negotiation (not a guarantee).

Nothing anyone could say on any matter up for negotiation will please you, will it? They're proposing what the likely outcome of those negotiations will be, not making demands. There's no promise there that won't be delivered on, and one way another the Scottish populace will be paying for it either indirectly through their taxes or through some form of licence fee.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Quite liked this.

https://opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/robin-mcalpine/butterfly-rebellion

Yeah, I posted that earlier. Pretty bold girls haha. Ed looked very uncomfortable.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Hammer on one side?

I personally resent the fact that I and the people who remain in the UK will have to deal with the fallout from all of this but yet get no vote. I know you don't give a flying fuck about that but I bloody well do.

If the UK gets dragged into anything that is detrimental to the lives of it's citizens then I'm going to hazard a guess and say there will be some deep seated resentment toward Scotland.

So yes, I absolutely detest the empty promises Salmond and co are making to ensure a yes vote because many of them are not his to make.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Didn't see this posted: livestream from protest outside BBC Glasgow

kind of fucked up, their reporting on the referendum

 

[Ashes]

Nuclear submarine bases don't just spring up out of the ground. Nor are they free of charge, someone's got to pay to build a new one and people need to build it.

I don't see why the UK would keep their nuclear arsenal in Scotland. Especially since nationalists have tried to get rid of trident for quite a while now. I think it's one of the positives for the 'Yes' campaign. And this will probably be done within a decade or two.

Aside from that, on the whole defence spending front, I do think Scotland stands to lose long term. When it comes to defence spending, the UK will take into its fold a lot of contracts sourced to Scotland purely as a security measure. That's why some in Scottish defence industry have been a bit upset. They'd still be able to get the international contracts though. Or at least bid for them.

And they will lower their own defence budget of course - there are significant savings to be had there. So overall, bad for the economy good for the budget.

edit: I should add that the last line is for Scotland. The UK loses substantially more than Scotland in my view.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Nothing anyone could say on any matter up for negotiation will please you, will it? They're proposing what the likely outcome of those negotiations will be, not making demands. There's no promise there that won't be delivered on, and one way another the Scottish populace will be paying for it either indirectly through their taxes or through some form of licence fee.

It is correct that nothing you or the yes campaign could say on the issue of the currency union (for example) would please me.

Remember: Salmond is promising you everything but for us south of the border? He's making demands of us that we don't have to satisfy. And contrary to what he's saying it is not in the UK's best interest to engage in a currency union, and as for his threat of not paying Scotland's share of the debt: That'll count as a default and negatively affect your nation's international credit rating.

Empty promises and baseless threats.

No fucking way will I willingly put my future, or my country's financial future on the line to ensure that man's legacy.

Incidentally, why the hell is up to the UK to tell Scotland that they don't want to control the financial heart of their country? It's completely backwards. How people in Scotland aren't put off by the idea of Scotland having less control over their finances than they do now... I don't think I can fully grasp that.