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Scottish Independence Referendum |OT| 18 September 2014 [Up: NO wins]

Where do you stand on the issue of Scottish independence?

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abunai said:
Just off Byres Rd in Glasgow. Ain't no thang. He was probably blootered out his face.



I was. Tartan shirt, grey backpack (very specific, I know).
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Too specific! If you seen an awkward guy in the corners filming on his phone with a work badge on because he was on his lunch break, that would've been me! But then there was probably loads of folk doing that.
 
Napoleonthechimp said:
It is correct that nothing you or the yes campaign could say on the issue of the currency union (for example) would please me.

Remember: Salmond is promising you everything but for us south of the border? He's making demands of us that we don't have to satisfy. And contrary to what he's saying it is not in the UK's best interest to engage in a currency union, and as for his threat of not paying Scotland's share of the debt: That'll count as a default and negatively affect your nation's international credit rating.

Empty promises and baseless threats.

No fucking way will I willingly put my future, or my country's financial future on the line to ensure that man's legacy.

Incidentally, why the hell is up to the UK to tell Scotland that they don't want to control the financial heart of their country? It's completely backwards. How people in Scotland aren't put off by the idea of Scotland having less control over their finances than they do now... I don't think I can fully grasp that.
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Incidentally, this is a major bugbear for me aswell. And it's fucking baffling, I genuinely believe Salmond is only doing that for votes, he knows if he said "we can't keep the pound" he'd get less votes.

The ignorance amongst some people I know voting yes is astounding, yesterday a friend of mine simply summed it all up, on this issue, as "they can't stop us from using the pound we'll just use it if we want to".

Too much of this campaign is painted in dewey eyed optimism and traditional scottish tory bashing whipped in a frenzy of social media fuelled zealotry. As well as of course that I don't believe it's right that the rest of the UK has no say in this tbh when it affects them greatly too.

Frankly, at this point in time, I will say the pure opposite of what many may say right now: I feel disgusted to be scottish right now. If it's a yes, I'm moving south.

PS:

There the BBC is talking about you, can we stop with the bias now?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29196912
 
I'm for Scottish independence, if only because this was one of the funniest sporting moments of the year.

SF.gif
 
Ether_Snake said:
How are you more isolated on international affairs, by being independent? Makes no sense.
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Meaning Scotland won't be as willing to join international coalitions to, say, fight ISIS for example. Now I've been against both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, but it has been reassuring to know the UK stands with us when it's needed in the international scene.

rUK will be a smaller military force than current UK, wouldn't it? And I doubt Scotland will be joining any coalitions as they will look mostly to their internal affairs.

That's what I was referring to. Might be better for iScotland as I doubt they would spend much in their military. Obviously rUK won't invade or something like that so their military needs might be small, and they will rely on the rUK to carry the responsibility for international security events.
 
It's hard to see how the rest of the UK could have a say in it. Even if every single Scottish voter voted for Independence they could easily be outvoted and likely would. Keeping Scotland in the union against its will is pretty un-democratic no matter how you look at it.
 
Rubenov said:
Meaning Scotland won't be as willing to join international coalitions to, say, fight ISIS for example. Now I've been against both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, but it has been reassuring to know the UK stands with us when it's needed in the international scene.

rUK will be a smaller military force than current UK, wouldn't it? And I doubt Scotland will be joining any coalitions as they will look mostly to their internal affairs.

That's what I was referring to. Might be better for iScotland as I doubt they would spend much in their military. Obviously rUK won't invade or something like that so their military needs might be small, and they will rely on the rUK to carry the responsibility for international security events.
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I don't see this as a bad thing at all. In fact, on balance I think UK intervention in the Middle East has been one of the causal factors in the continuing instability. I mean the UK and US have historically intervened when there have been progressive nationalist governments as well.

ISIS seems like an ignorant group of fanatics, but it is a small fry on the international stage and a miniscule threat to UK security. I don't trust our governments to intervene with the best intentions of the people on the ground. A smaller international role for Scotland is not a bad thing in my opinion. The UK's foreign policy is nothing to be proud of in general.
 
Speaking of football fans colossal fricking brawl in my local between a load of Celtic & Rangers fans because some moron randomly brought up Independence, broken tables and glass everywhere. Never seen it this bad (in England) between them before.
 
nelsonroyale said:
I don't see this as a bad thing at all. In fact, on balance I think UK intervention in the Middle East has been one of the causal factors in the continuing instability. I mean the UK and US have historically intervened when there have been progressive nationalist governments as well.

ISIS seems like an ignorant group of fanatics, but it is a small fry on the international stage and a miniscule threat to UK security. I don't trust our governments to intervene with the best intentions of the people on the ground. A smaller international role for Scotland is not a bad thing in my opinion. The UK's foreign policy is nothing to be proud of in general.
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Don't wanna derail the thread but that is complacency at its finest. Miniscule threat they are not.
 
I can't imagine there being too much ideological opposition to Nukes in Scotland, is there? After all, there's only a certain degree to which one can be anti-nuke whilst seeking to join NATO and shelter under the nuclear umbrella that it provides. As long as rUK are paying for it, I can't imagine too many in Scotland would be opposed to their temporarily staying there, surely?
 
Rodhull said:
It's hard to see how the rest of the UK could have a say in it. Even if every single Scottish voter voted for Independence they could easily be outvoted and likely would. Keeping Scotland in the union against its will is pretty un-democratic no matter how you look at it.
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They should have a say in other matters that directly affect them (but are still related to the ridiculous promises that have come out of Salmond's mouth), but I've already discussed that to death.

John Dunbar said:
as a non-partial, non-british observer i can assure you that that was indeed legendary trolling.
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People south of the border are generally supportive of Scottish supporting endeavours which is why I've always had a problem with this kind of trolling. I think after this people in England will either be mildly irritated by it or largely indifferent (I however won't be as accepting).

However it still won't be as pathetic as that display.

CyclopsRock said:
I can't imagine there being too much ideological opposition to Nukes in Scotland, is there? After all, there's only a certain degree to which one can be anti-nuke whilst seeking to join NATO and shelter under the nuclear umbrella that it provides. As long as rUK are paying for it, I can't imagine too many in Scotland would be opposed to their temporarily staying there, surely?
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Don't you have to be open to allowing nuclear vessels through your territorial waters in order to join NATO? I think that may be a fundamental problem for Scotland's application.

Also, lol at "as long as rUK are paying for it". If it is requirement for NATO application or anything of that sort (I really don't think it is) then you can bloody well pay for the privilege.
 
CyclopsRock said:
I can't imagine there being too much ideological opposition to Nukes in Scotland, is there? After all, there's only a certain degree to which one can be anti-nuke whilst seeking to join NATO and shelter under the nuclear umbrella that it provides. As long as rUK are paying for it, I can't imagine too many in Scotland would be opposed to their temporarily staying there, surely?
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Those nukes were the stuff of nightmare when I was small. Often I would stay at my grandparents and those things would be driven along Peat Road in the dead of night making enough noise that it would wake me. Combine that with Threads and they scared the shit out of me for years. I want to see them gone so my inner child might finally sleep soundly.

Also, the nuclear umbrella thing doesn't reassure me much, it's a conventional weapon that been bypassed by unconventional warfare. The last terrorist attack on Glasgow was dispersed by a taxi driver and a baggage hander kicking the shit out of a man that was on fire. What good would such a weapon do?

CyclopsRock said:
IMO that Scotland fan was fucking hilarious.
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He was in South Africa too, IIRC. He goes out to these countries and works with the poor and underprivileged and also gives out Scotland shirts. He's a good guy IMO.
 
+1 for that Scotland fan being top comedy, and I needed cheering up at that moment!

I watched the 2010 world cup in Cardiff and the Welsh are just the same.
 
8bit said:
Those nukes were the stuff of nightmare when I was small. Often I would stay at my grandparents and those things would be driven along Peat Road in the dead of night making enough noise that it would wake me. Combine that with Threads and they scared the shit out of me for years. I want to see them gone so my inner child might finally sleep soundly.

Also, the nuclear umbrella thing doesn't reassure me much, it's a conventional weapon that been bypassed by unconventional warfare. The last terrorist attack on Glasgow was dispersed by a taxi driver and a baggage hander kicking the shit out of a man that was on fire. What good would such a weapon do?



He was in South Africa too, IIRC. He goes out to these countries and works with the poor and underprivileged and also gives out Scotland shirts. He's a good guy IMO.
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Sure, but that's a practical and... I guess... Inner psychological reason to want them gone. I don't think there are too many CND types knocking about the Yes camp, are there?
 
JonathanEx said:
I thought no nukes was an SNP policy?
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Yeah, but again, I think that's in a "they're an outdated weapon, we don't need them" point rather than a "they're a destructive force that are a negative for humankind and they should be eradicated". That is, practical vs ideological opposition. And it's relevant because the former allows for the rUK to leave them there for a while whilst we prepare alternative lodging for the sub's, where as the latter suggests they'd need to leave in Day 1.
 
CyclopsRock said:
I can't imagine there being too much ideological opposition to Nukes in Scotland, is there? After all, there's only a certain degree to which one can be anti-nuke whilst seeking to join NATO and shelter under the nuclear umbrella that it provides. As long as rUK are paying for it, I can't imagine too many in Scotland would be opposed to their temporarily staying there, surely?
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There are lots of people in the world who don't live under a 'nuclear umbrella' and who have never been nuked.

The problem of moving the missiles won't be the cost, it will be the location - I'm guessing the people of Cumbria, Wales or Devon will have to be told not to worry about the risks, but think of the jobs that will be created.
 
CyclopsRock said:
Sure, but that's a practical and... I guess... Inner psychological reason to want them gone. I don't think there are too many CND types knocking about the Yes camp, are there?
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Well, the Scottish Greens are pretty anti Nuke IMO and I'd expect them to be quite well represented in a future Scottish Government. It might not be a speedy process though.

Übermatik;130010891 said:
Witnessed a line of kids (girls) walking through the stress of Edinburgh yesterday shouting "Vote yes!". I should have asked them why.
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Yes, you should have. And I believe they would have given you a good argument as to why. I believe the youth of Scotland are engaged in this process and well educated.
 
8bit said:
Yes, you should have. And I believe they would have given you a good argument as to why. I believe the youth of Scotland are engaged in this process and well educated.
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Yeah... No. I know Scottish adults who I once respected who only repeat the SNP's stock phrases and party lines without knowing a damn thing about the realities of the situation. It is the main reason why I have to keep hammering home the same damn points. But those blockheaded morons dismiss it as scaremongering because it doesn't jive with their fantastical vision of utopia.

Philly40 said:
There are lots of people in the world who don't live under a 'nuclear umbrella' and who have never been nuked.
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What a bizarre thing to say.

The idea is to have protection in the eventuality that someone attempts it. Not to react to nuclear attacks after the fact.
 
Philly40 said:
There are lots of people in the world who don't live under a 'nuclear umbrella' and who have never been nuked.

The problem of moving the missiles won't be the cost, it will be the location - I'm guessing the people of Cumbria, Wales or Devon will have to be told not to worry about the risks, but think of the jobs that will be created.
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Well I'm not really defending any given policy, I just think that there's a bit of a disconnect between an ideological opposition to nuclear weapons and joining NATO, whose backstop are nuclear weapons. Practical concerns are another matter, though.

8bit said:
Well, the Scottish Greens are pretty anti Nuke IMO and I'd expect them to be quite well represented in a future Scottish Government. It might not be a speedy process though.
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Gotcha, cheers!
 
8bit said:
Yes, you should have. And I believe they would have given you a good argument as to why. I believe the youth of Scotland are engaged in this process and well educated.
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And I believe they'll spout of the same shitty facebook memes/age old tory bashing arguments at you instead.
 
Scottish Sun about to come out for No by all accounts. This one's in the books, it'll be a reasonably close no probably, maybe a very comfortable no.
 
AHA-Lambda said:
And I believe they'll spout of the same shitty facebook memes/age old tory bashing arguments at you instead.
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This question has engaged the Scottish people politically unlike any other issue in years, probably since the poll tax arose. Do you really think people haven't done their research? You shouldn't underestimate your fellow citizens.

kmag said:
Scottish Sun about to come out for No by all accounts. This one's in the books, it'll be a reasonably close no probably, maybe a very comfortable no.
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Really? I've heard the opposite from some sources.
 
Philly40 said:
There are lots of people in the world who don't live under a 'nuclear umbrella' and who have never been nuked.

The problem of moving the missiles won't be the cost, it will be the location - I'm guessing the people of Cumbria, Wales or Devon will have to be told not to worry about the risks, but think of the jobs that will be created.
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Location is a bit of an issue. While I'm not a big fan of how Scotland ended up it when it came to nuclear weapons storage, and I'm definitely not a fan of the fact that it's so close the major Scottish population centre or that it's presence has prevented a potential oil boom in the Clyde basin/West Coast, but there are not many places in the UK with a deep water channel and a nearby mountain (the nukes are stored in bunkers embedded deep into the hillside at Coulport)

All the other UK options are either near or in major population areas, or lack the suitable weapons storage.
 
8bit said:
This question has engaged the Scottish people politically unlike any other issue in years, probably since the poll tax arose. Do you really think people haven't done their research? You shouldn't underestimate your fellow citizens.



Really? I've heard the opposite from some sources.
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That's the big rumour I'm hearing from a couple of folks from the Yes Campaign.
 
I read a rumour that there's a big No Campaign supporter yet to be announced at midnight. Could be thinking it's The Sun? But why would you get excited by that...

Edit: Oh you can sort of scrap that link, it's The Sun's people who first said that rumour and mention heart. Even they're not that arrogant. https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/511199606932508672

Edit 2: Sun first edition is all on ISIS. So uh, no call on them tonight I guess.
 
JonathanEx said:
I read a rumour that there's a big No Campaign supporter yet to be announced at midnight. Could be thinking it's The Sun? But why would you get excited by that...

Edit: Oh you can sort of scrap that link, it's The Sun's people who first said that rumour and mention heart. Even they're not that arrogant. https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/511199606932508672

Edit 2: Sun first edition is all on ISIS. So uh, no call on them tonight I guess.
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Again with the midnight reveal?? Come on, it's Sunday night...

Edit:

Speaking of staying up late, and so's I'm contributing something, here's a link to the expected results times on Thursday night. I saw it on another forum, but I'm not sure where they got it from I'm afraid.
 
I just realised the rumour was Scottish Sun and I've only seen the national Sun front page, so not strictly ruled out.

And everyone loves a midnight embargo!!!!!! (just make it 10:30pm like when papers normally are out thnx)
 
kmag said:
Location is a bit of an issue. While I'm not a big fan of how Scotland ended up it when it came to nuclear weapons storage, and I'm definitely not a fan of the fact that it's so close the major Scottish population centre or that it's presence has prevented a potential oil boom in the Clyde basin/West Coast, but there are not many places in the UK with a deep water channel and a nearby mountain (the nukes are stored in bunkers embedded deep into the hillside at Coulport)

All the other UK options are either near or in major population areas, or lack the suitable weapons storage.
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I'm not a fan either, when I was at school we went on a canoeing trip to Loch Goil, being an open sea-loch we could see the trident subs doing training manoeuvres at the other end and it scared the shit out of me, even as a ten year old.

If the base has to be moved somewhere else in rUK then there will be massive resistance from the local population wherever they choose to go.
 
Shove em in Gibraltar. Open ocean and the whole fucking place is a mountain (chock full of tunnels). We can have the whole top open up like Tracey Island and host ICBMs too.
 
QuicheFontaine said:
Again with the midnight reveal?? Come on, it's Sunday night...

Edit:

Speaking of staying up late, and so's I'm contributing something, here's a link to the expected results times on Thursday night. I saw it on another forum, but I'm not sure where they got it from I'm afraid.
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Fuck, all the big share councils are high in yes >_<

Hope the volume of the others beats them then.
 
8bit said:
This question has engaged the Scottish people politically unlike any other issue in years, probably since the poll tax arose. Do you really think people haven't done their research? You shouldn't underestimate your fellow citizens.
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To be perfectly frank, from many of the people I've been talking to that I know personally, yeah I don't think they have.

Too many people have got swiped up in the hype of the Yes side. It's became trendy to show your support for Yes unlike No.
 
Having seen the Scottish Sun's coverage for the past few weeks having them come out as a No at this stage would be ludicrous, there's been nominally pro yes coverage spreads every day for weeks, but stranger things have happened. Could be they just tone down their yes ness after Murdoch's visit.

Also it's pretty clear at this point that the UK Sun's editorial position has no sway on the scottish sun, they've said totally different things for years.
 
AHA-Lambda said:
Fuck, all the big share councils are high in yes >_<

Hope the volume of the others beats them then.
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I'm sure it balances out. And again, I don't know where that image actually comes from (Exhibit 9??), but it looked fairly official to me.

JonathanEx said:
On the timing stuff - my friend Tim has put this guide together on when the result will be in, when to watch and stuff to be aware of. He's a producer at Radio 2 so should probably know what he's on about. http://www.timjohns.org/2014/09/13/what-time-will-the-scottish-referendum-results-come-in/
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Oh you just had to one-up my unsourced, unsubstantiated link didn't you?
 
AHA-Lambda said:
To be perfectly frank, from many of the people I've been talking to that I know personally, yeah I don't think they have.
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I'm disappointed to hear that, the people I know in that bracket are well informed as it is their future, they've done their research and feel confident in their choice.
 
With regards to what council areas may or may not vote yes, I would suggest relative SNP strength is a pretty bad measure, a lot of their Westminster seats are won on the proviso that they're not the tories or labour.

I'd suggest poverty rates and unemployment as a better outlook. On this, I would suspect the vote in the Central belt to be far more pro yes than the rest of scotland. Even places like Edinburgh, which will probably go 'No' overall, will have a substantial, substantial yes vote, and I would expect the likes of North Lanarkshire, Falkirk and Clackmannan to go yes. Glasgow could go either way at this point so I won't make a prediction there. Also, Dundee will have the highest yes percentage in scotland, I'm fairly comfortable with that prediction at this point.
 
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