Support NeoGAF

[Sage00]

I feel sorry for the young people of Scotland who want to pursue a Higher Education. If Scotland leaves the UK they would then be subject to international fees to any UK university and thus pricing many of them out.

Secondly, if the Scotland was to join the EU after an independence vote, under the EU non-discrimination laws, those in the UK would be able to go to Scottish universities free of charge, for the first time ever, which will make them attractive to UK residents and therefore result in less places for Scottish residents. This also in turn results in a loss of ~£150m/year of revenue for Scottish universities and hence they will be forced to actually start charging students. However the YES campaign state this won't happen because they say so, which isn't exactly reassuring.

Additionally, Scottish universities get a disproportionate amount from the UK research fund that will be lost with an independence vote.

I am a firm believer that education is key to leading to opportunities to better yourself. I would be very interested in hearing a YES POI on this topic as they keep going on about a better Scotland but how will that happen if the youth of Scotland are hindered?

I don't have a vote in this poll but that doesn't mean I don't care about my Scottish neighbours and if I could vote it would be 100% be a NO.

Thanks, that's a really well through out post. It's one of the arguments I can completely understand people voting no for, but I'll give you the arguments for the Yes side for your information anyway. A lot of points made there so I'll take them individually..

I feel sorry for the young people of Scotland who want to pursue a Higher Education. If Scotland leaves the UK they would then be subject to international fees to any UK university and thus pricing many of them out.

That's not true. Scottish students, as members of the EU, cannot be charged fees different from English or any other EU students by a university.

Secondly, if the Scotland was to join the EU after an independence vote, under the EU non-discrimination laws, those in the UK would be able to go to Scottish universities free of charge, for the first time ever, which will make them attractive to UK residents and therefore result in less places for Scottish residents. This also in turn results in a loss of ~£150m/year of revenue for Scottish universities and hence they will be forced to actually start charging students. However the YES campaign state this won't happen because they say so, which isn't exactly reassuring.

I agree that the most likely outcome of this is that Scottish universities will begin charging all applicants. It's likely that this will be replaced with something like the system in Germany's private universities, where Scottish students under a certain level of income will instead be given grants to cover the costs of tuition fees.

It should also be noted that this is actually Scottish Labour policy too, even in a Scotland as part of the UK - so really, it's just a matter of time until it happens regardless of the vote. The amount of places for Scottish/EU students is already small, and universities are accepting more and more English/International students as it is. Check the Clearing sites of any of the top universities right now - majority of courses are closed to Scottish/EU applications, but lots are still open to English/International. Something will have to either way.

Additionally, Scottish universities get a disproportionate amount from the UK research fund that will be lost with an independence vote.

What do you mean disproportionate? The funding from the British Research Council is wholly proportionate, but I agree it will be a big loss to Scotland considering the large amount of contracts that organisation has, particularly in the STEM subjects. There was a recent poll that highlighted these concerns with the Scottish lecturers in Humanities/Arts in favour of independence by 60%, but those in STEM subjects against by 85%.

But I don't think for a minute Scotland wouldn't be able to build up its own funding bodies and continue top class research. Scotland has more top universities per capita than any other country in the world - it's wholly unfeasible to think no one will want to continue to fund them, or pursue a 'Scottish Research Council' contract which uses them.

I am a firm believer that education is key to leading to opportunities to better yourself. I would be very interested in hearing a YES POI on this topic as they keep going on about a better Scotland but how will that happen if the youth of Scotland are hindered?

I couldn't agree more. I grew up in one of the most deprived areas of Glasgow, and wouldn't have been able to even consider university without my tuition fees being paid. But let me say this - there were a lot of people at my school who could have too and didn't, because they didn't receive proper support. In fact the amount of people who went to university at all from my school is under 20, from a class of 100s.

There is so much more that can be done not just in the tertiary area of university but from the ground up, and to see hundreds of billions wasted on weapons of mass destruction or billions of oil revenues wasted on privatisation costs when it could have been used to help some of those people in giving them the opportunities they deserve, I have to think there's a better way. That's why I'm voting Yes, anyway.

 

[CyclopsRock]

ye want to try and get people to take Northern Irish Sterling in England.

I don't have to much of an opinion on this being someone from the Republic of Ireland living in Northern Ireland but it seems funny to me a lot of the arguments used by supporters of the no and better together campaign that of becoming a smaller country leaving a successful union are the exact arguments they themselves are ignoring as they campaign for the UK leaving the European Union.

I guess it all comes down to what one considers a "successful union".

"‘You only need to change your direction’, said the cat, and ate it up."

Indeed.

In other news, the No campaign have finally played their Ace card. Shove that in your pipe and smoke it, Yes.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

What do you do? Take away a nuclear deterent when Russia are acting up these last several years?

Funny thing is, Trident will be the first thing El' Presidente Salmond will try and use as a bargaining chip in post 'Yes' negotiations in return for a currency union.

Trident will still be in Scotland in 2016,2020,2025.

 

[Punchy4486]

What about the Welsh? Won't somebody think of the Welsh?!

 

[CyclopsRock]

Doesn't the fact that it's all gotten to this point to begin with show that our political system is in desperate need of some serious reform?

I think armed revolt is that point. The fact that a vocal group have gained political support and successfully achieve their goal of getting a referendum on the issue suggests to me that, whilst there clearly are things people aren't happy about, that the fundamentals of our country are good. There aren't too many examples of secessionist movements that are entirely without violence and entirely conducted through the legitimate use of democracy, including with the blessing of the "host" country. In the words of some random fuck on Twitter, "If the Union dies, at least it dies by its principles."

 

[operon]

I guess it all comes down to what one considers a "successful union".

"‘You only need to change your direction’, said the cat, and ate it up."

Indeed.

In other news, the No campaign have finally played their Ace card. Shove that in your pipe and smoke it, Yes.

Plz I though the Ace card was David Beckham

 

[kmag]

Has the leak regarding SNP cuts on the NHS made any waves in Scotland?

Firstly the document doesn't say that the NHS budget will be cut by that amount of money. It says there is a funding gap for government commitments mostly due to increased drug costs. Secondly, even if it is all cut, that amounts to a 3.6% cut in NHS spending. The UK government is delivering a real terms cut of 10% to the Scottish block grant in the same fiscal year so cuts are needed somewhere. And thirdly, these cost pressures are put on the Scottish Government by the UK Government. It's not really wise to crow about this when you're saying 'devolution is the best of both worlds' and telling us how devolution can protect the NHS, provide drastic improvements to child care, mitigate the bedroom tax sorry spare room subsidy and invest heavily in further education.

The Torygraph and the BBC, unsurprisingly, are being disingenuous. It implies that since Westminster isn't cutting their NHS spending that the SNP don't have to. The Scottish Budget is set as a function of the entire UK budget not just the health budget, and current spending priorities have seen Scotland spend a bit more than the rest of the UK on the NHS. The UK is currently slashing spending to get rid of its deficit. The Scottish Budget is absolutely finite and much smaller than the UK so it's hardly easy to absorb a 10% cut.

 

[Sage00]

What do you do? Take away a nuclear deterent when Russia are acting up these last several years?

Look, it doesn't matter what you or I think. The fact is that the Scottish people, when polled on this issue consistently year after year have said they do not want Trident here. They would rather the money spent on something else. The elected government of the Scottish people do not want Trident here, either.

So, in the name of democracy, if England wants them so bad they can come get them and pay for it themselves.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Firstly the document doesn't say that the NHS budget will be cut by that amount of money. It says there is a funding gap for government commitments mostly due to increased drug costs. Secondly, even if it is all cut, that amounts to a 3.6% cut in NHS spending. The UK government is delivering a real terms cut of 10% to the Scottish block grant in the same fiscal year so cuts are needed somewhere. And thirdly, these cost pressures are put on the Scottish Government by the UK Government. It's not really wise to crow about this when you're saying 'devolution is the best of both worlds' and telling us how devolution can protect the NHS, provide drastic improvements to child care, mitigate the bedroom tax sorry spare room subsidy and invest heavily in further education.

The Torygraph and the BBC, unsurprisingly, are being disingenuous. It implies that since Westminster isn't cutting their NHS spending that the SNP don't have to. The Scottish Budget is set as a function of the entire UK budget not just the health budget, and current spending priorities have seen Scotland spend a bit more than the rest of the UK on the NHS. The UK is currently slashing spending to get rid of its deficit. The Scottish Budget is absolutely finite and much smaller than the UK so it's hardly easy to absorb a 10% cut.

Sigh, they could start culling all first born babies and you'd still find a reason to excuse it.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Look, it doesn't matter what you or I think. The fact is that the Scottish people, when polled on this issue consistently year after year have said they do not want Trident here. They would rather the money spent on something else. The elected government of the Scottish people do not want Trident here, either.

Bullshit...the last poll on Trident in Scotland had over 40% support and a similar amount opposed.

Stop lying and trying to portray it as a massive, overwhelming demand to see it gone, because there isn't, it's only within your narrow left wing world that it's the case.

 

[operon]

You'll have to remind me of the date when the UK entered into a formal political union with the EU, sharing a Parliament,currency,institutions and armed forces.

The UK could leave Europe tomorrow and still have everything in place to function as a country, Scotland could not.

So no, it's not the same..at all.

Scotland has their own parliament, own law system courts, sterling is as much theirs as the rest of the etc etc. And I thought the daily mail told us Brussels made all our laws in the European parliament and we have no say at all.

 

[Walshicus]

Funny thing is, Trident will be the first thing El' Presidente Salmond will try and use as a bargaining chip in post 'Yes' negotiations in return for a currency union.

Trident will still be in Scotland in 2016,2020,2025.

Perhaps. But the concessions bargained for will be something that the government of the Scottish people were able to balance the utility of, and not just something taken for granted through the casual disregard for the lives of Scottish people that Westminster offers.

 

[JonathanEx]

That's not true. Scottish students, as members of the EU, cannot be charged fees different from English or any other EU students by a university.

But as previously discussed the path of Scotland to the EU is hardly clear. It's the goal, but wouldn't this would be an issue that would exist for a few years potentially? Hardly long term, but still an issue.

 

[Juicy Bob]

I think armed revolt is that point. The fact that a vocal group have gained political support and successfully achieve their goal of getting a referendum on the issue suggests to me that, whilst there clearly are things people aren't happy about, that the fundamentals of our country are good. There aren't too many examples of secessionist movements that are entirely without violence and entirely conducted through the legitimate use of democracy, including with the blessing of the "host" country. In the words of some random fuck on Twitter, "If the Union dies, at least it dies by its principles."

Oh, absolutely. I'm very proud that this whole issue is being handled in the ultimate democratic way and that no one's had to threaten to blow up anyone in order for it to come about. It is a shining example of the fact that our democracy is strong.

It's just that, given the complex nature of the concept of the 'United Kingdom', the fact that we've reached a point where one of the member nations is about to vote on whether to go it alone suggests that our system has failed to adequately cater to its needs and so change must come whatever the outcome.

 

[lorebringer]

Stop reaching, I never said any such thing...Island as in a UK context.

If I'd put 'Islands' you would have been jumping up and down in a fit of pique, thinking I meant the Republic as well.

So when you said Island, you meant UK? Because those are two different things. I think it's a reasonable question, you said "There's only room for one sovereign government on this Island." Surely that means you support a single government Ireland as well? Or does that sentiment not apply to the Irish for some reason?

 

[Moral Panic]

What do you do? Take away a nuclear deterent when Russia are acting up these last several years?

Are you implying that if we get rid of Trident Russia will nuke us?

 

[Casimir]

I guess it all comes down to what one considers a "successful union".

"‘You only need to change your direction’, said the cat, and ate it up."

Indeed.

In other news, the No campaign have finally played their Ace card. Shove that in your pipe and smoke it, Yes.

Speaking to Nick Ferrari, he said: "I've made the ultimate sacrifice. If the Scottish people vote no, I will leave the country and go back to America.


How about anywhere else.

 

[Sage00]

But as previously discussed the path of Scotland to the EU is hardly clear. It's the goal, but wouldn't this would be an issue that would exist for a few years potentially? Hardly long term, but still an issue.

I don't think it's going to be an issue, and Salmond has in fact already begun negotiations with France, Spain and Germany, but it's true that you can't completely discount it. In response to that original question though, that would be even better for Scottish students since then Scotland wouldn't have to provide it for free to EU members as they do now!

On a more serious note, something else I forgot to mention in that post is that there is also a lot of EU funding given to Scottish universities. There remains a very real chance that the UK, after a referendum, will vote to leave the EU which would severely damage that.

 

[lorebringer]

In other news, the No campaign have finally played their Ace card. Shove that in your pipe and smoke it, Yes.

This sounds more like a landslide win for the yes side from where I'm sitting.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Oh, absolutely. I'm very proud that this whole issue is being handled in the ultimate democratic way and that no one's had to threaten to blow up anyone in order for it to come about. It is a shining example of the fact that our democracy is strong.

It's just that, given the complex nature of the concept of the 'United Kingdom', the fact that we've reached a point where one of the member nations is about to vote on whether to go it alone suggests that our system has failed to adequately cater to its needs and so change must come whatever the outcome.

Well perhaps, and I think it *will* come, but this isn't the first time there's been a referendum on independence in Scotland, and Ireland actually did leave and very little changed vis-a-vis our political setup. In fact, more has changed since 1997 than in the ~ 180 years before it. Perhaps it's merely a matter of scale (ie the vote this time will be close whoever wins, and with an expected enormous turnout).

...can he be forced to go somewhere other than Canada or the United States?

He can go incognito on the Falklands, become a Penguin Tamer. Or he can man the missile silos in Tracey "Gibraltar" Island.

Edit: What I'm saying is, let's fling to the far ends of our glorious empire.

 

[LayLa]

latest bookie odds
fairly unanimous 3/1 Yes, 1/4 No at the moment

 

[Sage00]

latest bookie odds
fairly unanimous 3/1 Yes, 1/4 No at the moment

That's free money. I'd advise anyone else to get on that - it's going to be a decisive Yes vote.

 

[Acorn]

Hah Tory mps promising a quote "bloodbath" in the event of a no and blocking new powers on the guardian blog.

Fuck this shit

 

[kmag]

latest bookie odds
fairly unanimous 3/1 Yes, 1/4 No at the moment

The bookies odds are mostly a reflection on their exposure to the market, and there were some absolutely massive bets (£100,000+) placed on No early on. In fact there's at least one bet of £800,000 placed in London on a no vote.

And I say that as someone who thinks No will win 52%-48%

 

[liquidtmd]

Hah Tory mps promising a quote "bloodbath" in the event of a no and blocking new powers on the guardian blog.

Thats what's depressing. Either way Friday is going to be a bloodbath

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Hah Tory mps promising a quote "bloodbath" in the event of a no and blocking new powers on the guardian blog.

Fuck this shit

Non issue.

There aren't enough Tory rebels to stop it, Labour and the Lib Dems will vote with the government.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Hah Tory mps promising a quote "bloodbath" in the event of a no and blocking new powers on the guardian blog.

Fuck this shit

I don't blame them at all. This tri-lateral agreement between the party leaders is a bullshit back room bodge (I should write for the Mail). Not only that, but it's a dumb appeal - the Barnett Formula is long overdue a massive refresh; we shouldn't base our budgets on national needs from the 1970's. The whole thing has been an utter shit storm and it's been caused by the party leaders panicking.

 

[LayLa]

Betfair paying out on No bets already, probably a publicity stunt but well ...

 

[Acorn]

That's free money. I'd advise anyone else to get on that - it's going to be a decisive Yes vote.

Mon the hoops

The bookies odds are mostly a reflection on their exposure to the market, and there were some absolutely massive bets (£100,000+) placed on No early on. In fact there's at least one bet of £800,000 placed in London on a no vote.

And I say that as someone who thinks No will win 52%-48%

I'm less optimistic about the final vote I think it'll be 70-30, the polling criteria is all out of whack and I fear for the future if it is that decisive.

 

[D4Danger]

Hah Tory mps promising a quote "bloodbath" in the event of a no and blocking new powers on the guardian blog.

Fuck this shit

c'mon. There's always some fringe lunatic proposing this or that.

 

[Acorn]

I don't blame them at all. This tri-lateral agreement between the party leaders is a bullshit back room bodge (I should write for the Mail). Not only that, but it's a dumb appeal - the Barnett Formula is long overdue a massive refresh; we shouldn't base our budgets on national needs from the 1970's. The whole thing has been an utter shit storm and it's been caused by the party leaders panicking.

Give us complete control of our finances and the Tories can have their fun wrecking shit down south.

 

[Saiyar]

I'm less optimistic about the final vote I think it'll be 70-30, the polling criteria is all out of whack and I fear for the future if it is that decisive.

The polls won't be off by anywhere near that amount.

 

[JonathanEx]

Who would like some REFERENDUM STUDIO PORN? In the BBC's Scottish HQ...

 

[D4Danger]

So what happens to the BBC in Scotland if there's a yes vote?

Does it just cut to black like the end of the sopranos?

 

[Acorn]

The polls won't be off by anywhere near that amount.

I hope so, but I don't feel good about this.

 

[liquidtmd]

Who would like some REFERENDUM STUDIO PORN? In the BBC's Scottish HQ...

That's actually the end result. The two warring sides saw the futility of voting and settled on A Nice Game Of Chess instead.

 

[Acorn]

So what happens to the BBC in Scotland if there's a yes vote?

Do it just cut to black like the end of the sopranos?

We'd get their assets up here and buy programmes from bbc England/uk

 

[MilkyJoe]

Are you implying that if we get rid of Trident Russia will nuke us?

 

[CyclopsRock]

Give us complete control of our finances and the Tories can have their fun wrecking shit down south.

OK? Well, go make sure you win the referendum then! But I don't blame the MP's who aren't keen on bizarre consolation prizes being offered without any mandate.

 

[Acorn]

OK? Well, go make sure you win the referendum then! But I don't blame the MP's who aren't keen on bizarre consolation prizes being offered without any mandate.

The uk should be a federalist state regardless of the vote.

Only the bloody lying lib dems are offering it though

 

[RedShift]

latest bookie odds
fairly unanimous 3/1 Yes, 1/4 No at the moment

This is like a 25% chance of a Yes vote right? I've been playing too much Fire Emblem recently, my brain only understands percentage odds.

 

[Sage00]

The uk should be a federalist state regardless of the vote.

Only the bloody lying lib dems are offering it though

I've never understood how the Lib Dems, the party of localism who fought for the autonomy of the Scottish islands, could be against independence but there you go.

 

[RulkezX]

That's free money. I'd advise anyone else to get on that - it's going to be a decisive Yes vote.

You need to step out your little Yes echo chamber.

 

[Mindwipe]

We'd get their assets up here and buy programmes from bbc England/uk

They don't have any assets in Scotland.

(Pacific Quay is owned by Capita and private finance for example. The BBC just rent it.)

This is Scotland's own business, but I do know one thing for certainly - the SNP's broadcasting policy is straight up loony tunes. It is completely implausible, and buying up some rights from the BBC in Scotland would be a pretty shitty outcome for many people on a broadcasting front. You'd get maybe twenty shows a year, assuming the proposed SBC spends virtually it's entire acquisition budget at the BBC.

 

[Acorn]

I've never understood how the Lib Dems, the party of localism who fought for the autonomy of the Scottish islands, could be against independence but there you go.

Because their Daddy the Tories told them so,

 

[Acorn]

They don't have any assets in Scotland.

(Pacific Quay is owned by Capita and private finance for example. The BBC just rent it.)

This is Scotland's own business, but I do know one thing for certainly - the SNP's broadcasting policy is straight up loony tunes. It is completely implausible, and buying up some rights from the BBC in Scotland would be a pretty shitty outcome for many people on a broadcasting front. You'd get maybe twenty shows a year, assuming the proposed SBC spends virtually it's entire acquisition budget at the BBC.

Fair enough. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Saiyar]

I've never understood how the Lib Dems, the party of localism who fought for the autonomy of the Scottish islands, could be against independence but there you go.

They are looking out for their own self interest same as every other party, that was made obvious after 2010.

It is just the same as the SNP, the party fighting for Scottish self determination, refusing to give the islands the right to self determination.

 

[Xenex]

That's not true. Scottish students, as members of the EU, cannot be charged fees different from English or any other EU students by a university.

Hmm, I looked this up and turns out it's true, I never knew this but now I do . However, I've read that joining the EU is a long and tedious process so for at least for that time period international fees will apply affecting those 16 year olds, who are capable of voting. And furthermore, this is assuming Scotland joins the EU. There are countries such as Spain with their own separatist movements and could potentially veto Scotland for joining to set an example, even the UK could veto Scotland from joining if it really wanted to. For me, this is a position I would hate to be in.

I agree that the most likely outcome of this is that Scottish universities will begin charging all applicants. It's likely that this will be replaced with something like the system in Germany's private universities, where Scottish students under a certain level of income will instead be given grants to cover the costs of tuition fees.

It should also be noted that this is actually Scottish Labour policy too, even in a Scotland as part of the UK - so really, it's just a matter of time until it happens regardless of the vote. The amount of places for Scottish/EU students is already small, and universities are accepting more and more English/International students as it is. Check the Clearing sites of any of the top universities right now - majority of courses are closed to Scottish/EU applications, but lots are still open to English/International. Something will have to either way.

If this is the case then, as both you and I both agree that tuitions fees are going (coming in your case) to Scotland do you think it's right that the SNP lie to the young?

What do you mean disproportionate? The funding from the British Research Council is wholly proportionate, but I agree it will be a big loss to Scotland considering the large amount of contracts that organisation has, particularly in the STEM subjects. There was a recent poll that highlighted these concerns with the Scottish lecturers in Humanities/Arts in favour of independence by 60%, but those in STEM subjects against by 85%.

But I don't think for a minute Scotland wouldn't be able to build up its own funding bodies and continue top class research. Scotland has more top universities per capita than any other country in the world - it's wholly unfeasible to think no one will want to continue to fund them, or pursue a 'Scottish Research Council' contract which uses them.

http://theconversation.com/for-universities-sake-let-it-be-no-to-an-independent-scotland-31657

I couldn't agree more. I grew up in one of the most deprived areas of Glasgow, and wouldn't have been able to even consider university without my tuition fees being paid. But let me say this - there were a lot of people at my school who could have too and didn't, because they didn't receive proper support. In fact the amount of people who went to university at all from my school is under 20, from a class of 100s.

There is so much more that can be done not just in the tertiary area of university but from the ground up, and to see hundreds of billions wasted on weapons of mass destruction or billions of oil revenues wasted on privatisation costs when it could have been used to help some of those people in giving them the opportunities they deserve, I have to think there's a better way. That's why I'm voting Yes, anyway.

Basically, I agree with all your points apart from Trident (and the voting YES part ). I would have agreed with you on Trident this time last year but information has come to light since then: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/raf-fighters-intercepted-russian-warplanes-3817292. This scares the shit out of me, and even more worryingly I didn't even know this went on however since reading I am a supporter of Trident...even though we will hopefully never have to use it. But this also introduces the question of why Scotland wants to join NATO if you are so against nuclear weapons. The argument I keep hearing is that the majority of states are non nuclear states and therefore Scotland should be able to join but non of those states have ever dis-armed a NATO nuclear member - there's not enough time in 4 years to relocate Trident within the UK thus it will have to be dis-armed. I read that it's more likely a compromise will take place regarding the movement of Trident for Scotland to join NATO where Trident will stay in Scotland for a further 15 years while a new home is built for it in the UK.

 

[MilkyJoe]

They don't have any assets in Scotland.

(Pacific Quay is owned by Capita and private finance for example. The BBC just rent it.)

This is Scotland's own business, but I do know one thing for certainly - the SNP's broadcasting policy is straight up loony tunes. It is completely implausible, and buying up some rights from the BBC in Scotland would be a pretty shitty outcome for many people on a broadcasting front. You'd get maybe twenty shows a year, assuming the proposed SBC spends virtually it's entire acquisition budget at the BBC.

Or a shit load of Dad's Army and Keeping up Appearances...

 

[Acorn]

Or a shit load of Dad's Army and Keeping up Appearances...

I'd like a 24 hours Allo Allo channel