#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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I read Leigh Alexander's actual article, all the way through, around five weeks ago. At the time women were fucking running for their lives. In fear of death or rape. So don't pull that crap about Leigh Alexander making this happen. This misogynistic shit has been going on for _years_. The only change is now we're talking about it instead of pretending it doesn't happen or doesn't matter.

The difference is Gamergate is a campaign that claims it is about these issues or w/e and not JUST about harassing women. Nobody's saying Leigh Alexander is the reason Women are attacked on Twitter, but I do think the article is a large part of the reason Gamergate is still going on.

Yes, you can interpret things wrong. Many people interpret, say, the film the Graduate wrong, to the point where it's actually become a plot point in other movies. Or look at the scores of people that idolize Tony Montana or Tyler Durden.

Hmm. I think this goes into deeper questions of interpretation, or indeed, if authors have absolute authority to decide what their art means.
 
The difference is Gamergate is a campaign that claims it is about these issues or w/e and not JUST about harassing women. Nobody's saying Leigh Alexander is the reason Women are attacked on Twitter, but I do think the article is a large part of the reason Gamergate is still going on.



Hmm. I think this goes into deeper questions of interpretation, or indeed, if authors have absolute authority to decide what their art means.

Well, it doesn't even matter what the author thinks largely. Those are films with pretty clear morals to their endings. Should we, for instance, say that religious folks who interpret Harry Potter as promoting witchcraft have a valid point of view? Some interpretations are just flat out wrong. There are some where you can see why some might arrive at that conclusion (a warped religious upbringing) but that doesn't somehow make what they got out of the story correct.
 
What evidence refutes all of the conspiracy theory stuff that GG has?

I don't mean to sound naive, I just have no idea and have only heard the surface level stuff from both sides.

I did read the ZQ diary thingy and that was about the extend of my interest.
 
Well, it doesn't even matter what the author thinks largely. Those are films with pretty clear morals to their endings. Should we, for instance, say that religious folks who interpret Harry Potter as promoting witchcraft have a valid point of view? Some interpretations are just flat out wrong. There are some where you can see why some might arrive at that conclusion (a warped religious upbringing) but that doesn't somehow make what they got out of the story correct.

Who determines what interpretation are flat out wrong, though? Just a majority vote? Or does everyone have the right to decide what is a wrong interpretation for themselves?

In any case, my point was, I think Leigh knew that people would "Interpret" her comments that way, weather they're a misinterpretation or not. That said, I can't prove this, so it's pointless to argue about.

What evidence refutes all of the conspiracy theory stuff that GG has?

I don't mean to sound naive, I just have no idea and have only heard the surface level stuff from both sides.

I did read the ZQ diary thingy and that was about the extend of my interest.
God, it would honestly take forever to get through everything. I've been deep in it and even I've only read half of that stuff, if that.
 
What evidence refutes all of the conspiracy theory stuff that GG has?

I don't mean to sound naive, I just have no idea and have only heard the surface level stuff from both sides.

I did read the ZQ diary thingy and that was about the extend of my interest.

You'd probably need to be more specific since there's a lot of shit floating around. But for instance, a lot of people harped on Quinn for DDOSing The Fine Young Capitalists because TYFC said she did it on purpose. Later TFYC admitted on their blog that she hadn't done it, it was simply the increased traffic from it being publicly talked about that crashed the site.
 
What was the context leading up to her call for violence against "hood men"?

She had been to a concert in Brooklyn and was walking home alone after midnight and a bunch of guys in a car shouted things at her, while the car drove slowly by her side. She sent the tweet just as she arrived home.
 
She had been to a concert in Brooklyn and was walking home alone after midnight and a bunch of guys in a car shouted things at her, while the car drove slowly by her side. She sent the tweet just as she arrived home.

Oh come on, I wanted to see how he does some research.
 
The difference is Gamergate is a campaign that claims it is about these issues or w/e and not JUST about harassing women. Nobody's saying Leigh Alexander is the reason Women are attacked on Twitter, but I do think the article is a large part of the reason Gamergate is still going on.



Hmm. I think this goes into deeper questions of interpretation, or indeed, if authors have absolute authority to decide what their art means.

It's not so much about "correct" and "incorrect" but about "supported by the actual text" and "directly contradicted by the text." Author's intent doesn't come into the picture.
 
I propose a little game.

#GAMERGATE DRINKING GAME

---RULES---

1-Open twitter and search for "#GamerGate".
2-Start scrolling down slowly.
3-Take a shot every time you see the word "harassment".
(Alternatively, you can use "sexist" or "femnist" or "misogynist".)
4-Try not to die from alcohol poisoning in twenty minutes. The longest to survive wins!
Mate, if you're going to troll, at least have the guts to do it without spoiler tags.

In other news, it looks like r/KotakuInAction is struggling with the revelation that one of their mods is the also a mod for r/ThePhilosophyofRape (a self-confessed 7-time rapist). I think they, as a group, have finally started to address the issue of the real hateful people at their core... Maybe things might start looking up for GamerGate?I seem to remember seeings someone else say this a couple of weeks ago, so maybe not...
 
Mate, if you're going to troll, at least have the guts to do it without spoiler tags.

In other news, it looks like r/KotakuInAction is struggling with the revelation that one of their mods is the also a mod for r/ThePhilosophyofRape (a self-confessed 7-time rapist). I think they, as a group, have finally started to address the issue of the real hateful people at their core... Maybe things might start looking up for GamerGate?I seem to remember seeings someone else say this a couple of weeks ago, so maybe not...
Goddamn.

I wonder how people come to terms with things like this. I think about people making fun of Fox News and Republicans, but then you can find them talking race issues later saying the same sort of racist shit Fox News gets away with all the time with the same bad logic.
 
Holy fuck at what's going on in there.

For people curious, there's no "the" at the beginning of the subreddit URL.

Here's a theory presented in the subreddit's "OP" post:
"Rape served a very important function in mitigating female behavior and keeping it in check. Back in the time of prehistory, a woman couldn't behave as shamelessly slutty as she can today, because of the risk of catching the eye of the wrong male. But now, with "consent" laws barring nature back, and feminism and sexual-liberation perverting whole generations of hearts and minds, we find ourselves in a situation gone way, way, too far."
 
Mate, if you're going to troll, at least have the guts to do it without spoiler tags.

In other news, it looks like r/KotakuInAction is struggling with the revelation that one of their mods is the also a mod for r/ThePhilosophyofRape (a self-confessed 7-time rapist). I think they, as a group, have finally started to address the issue of the real hateful people at their core... Maybe things might start looking up for GamerGate?I seem to remember seeings someone else say this a couple of weeks ago, so maybe not...

I don't think #GamerGate can be redeemed at this point.

Anyone looking to promote real change in games journalism would be best to keep it down for a few months, and then try it again in a more civilized way under a different banner. And try not to invite Adam Baldwin.
 
... I think that GG's "journalistic integrity" cause was just a very, very, grave misunderstanding. People saw seemingly compelling evidence, and as a result, hopped on the rage train. It grew and grew, and in the end, it was a fierce mass-scale internet argument.
I think there's a lot of truth to this, at least for a lot of people. While I despise how it started, I actually don't blame some people for having questions/concerns about journalistic integrity after some of that initial information came out. But if that were all the situation was about, I would have thought the entire thing would have ended with, "Hey, there's no Kotaku review of Depression Quest. The EIC of the site looked into it."

I've seen enough reasonable GG supporters the genuinely do seem to just misunderstand certain aspects of the situation, or have been given incorrect information, or even simply have misunderstandings about how journalism (particularly game journalism) works. I can't entirely fault them for that, because it's not their job to know how other people's jobs work, but it's also really frustrating when a bunch of people who don't have journalism degrees decide to tell journalists how journalism works -- and refuse to believe you when you tell them otherwise.

(No doubt a few people would like to twist that and say, "Well, critics don't have game design degrees but they try to tell developers how to do their jobs!" but... No, that's not what critics, on the whole, do. They analyse what works and doesn't work in a specific piece of media. I don't pretend to know how to make a game, I just know how to recognize games I do and don't like, then put those feelings into words.)

It'll be hard to solve this misunderstanding peacefully, won't it?
I wish it was easy, because I refuse to be a part of a resolution that's not peaceful. But the couple of times I've tried to wade into the issue on Twitter haven't been as fruitful as I was hoping. Very early on (August 31) I tweeted the hashtag with high hopes, thinking, "Hey, I'll just talk to some folks, clear up some confusion, and things will be fine." Didn't really work. I got a handful of reasonable people asking questions (usually they got an answer, said "Thanks!" and left, which was nice), but they were accompanied by shouting, angry people who didn't seem willing to talk/listen at all, and who often came bearing misinformation.

Then I was "outed" (well, I outed myself, though only one person noticed/cared at the time) as a member of GameJournoPros, and suddenly I had so many people who had probably never heard of me (because let's face it, I'm not a huge name or anything) calling me corrupt that I just said, "Why bother?" It's really hard to try to have a reasonable discussion with reasonable (if concerned) people if there's also a crowd around you shouting angry insults for crimes you never actually committed.

A lot of people see "evidence," are convinced, and then go on the hunt. One guy starting tweeting at my work's official Twitter account with an image from a GJP leak, saying, "Is this the kind of guy you want working for you?" It got a bunch of retweets and replies, cluttering up our Twitter feed for a little bit. The problem? The guy misattributed a quote, trying to get me in trouble for something that I didn't even say. When this was pointed out to him, he said, "My mistake!" and dropped it, but he made no effort to correct the other people he had already sicced on us. Unfortunately, that's the kind of thing I've seen way too often during this entire thing. People are looking at the surface of an issue, often "confirming" something they already believed, then go on what they think is a righteous crusade. And frankly, I don't know how to fix that.
 
Yep.

It was just yesterday that I was talking (quite reasonably - no personal attacks or anger) with a GamerGate'r on twitter and his opening problem with "Journalism Ethics" was sex-for-review by ZQ. He was quite unaware that that whole thing was baseless, but it didn't stop him from using it as a base for his other concerns. That is, his other issues with ethics in journalism which effectively for a conspiracy based around that sex-for-review starting point. Mostly stoked by YouTubers like Sargon (for example). Ended up being no reasoning with the guy :(
 
What definitely seems to be true is that a moderator of r/KotakuInAction is also a moderator of r/cutefemalecorpses (which I would not recommend visiting). The moderator has since been removed as a moderator of KotakuInActiona because they don't want the bad PR associated with it. It's just incredibly ironic given the topic of Sarkeesian's latest video.
 
Swisslion's point is that the context in which you bring up this problem with Leigh Alexander is Gamergate, i.e. you automatically insert your criticism of Alexander into a discussion characterized by unjustified and irrational hate towards people like Alexander.

So when, exactly, would y'all deem it an appropriate context to raise these concerns about this article? If not now, for example, then when? Six months from now? A year? On a quiet news day?

What's to say the response a year from now won't be something along the lines of "What? Why are you bringing that up? That was ages ago and we've moved past it. You should, too."

Let's just lay it out there with no pointless dressing up: there will never be a time when a discussion about these Jeremiads will be considered appropriate. Never. There will always, always, always be a "but."

So fuck it. Let the whole thing burn.
 
The difference is Gamergate is a campaign that claims it is about these issues or w/e and not JUST about harassing women. Nobody's saying Leigh Alexander is the reason Women are attacked on Twitter, but I do think the article is a large part of the reason Gamergate is still going on.

And as I remarked, considering this crap was _already_ going on at the time she wrote her article, the claim that it's about anything other than harassing women is extremely disingenuous. The target was Quinn, and not the journalist falsely accused of aiding her for sex.
 
Speaking of baseless attacks:

(Yikes, hideously poisonous and defamatory crap)


This does not appear to be true. Again, do not post this kind of thing if it's unsubstantiated. "Somebody said it on Twitter" does not count as substantiation.

Frankly, if people would stop just posting whatever the latest thing is flying around Twitter, this thread would be less awful.

I would love to see that rule followed on Twitter, too. But here it should be considered a precondition for posting! If you just read some scandalous thing on the internet, be sensible and wait until it's either supported or (more likely) debunked. Usually the latter.
 
What evidence refutes all of the conspiracy theory stuff that GG has?

I don't mean to sound naive, I just have no idea and have only heard the surface level stuff from both sides.

I did read the ZQ diary thingy and that was about the extend of my interest.

It's been a while, so I'll re-post the list:


  • On Zoe Quinn:
    • gamergate tried to claim that Zoe Quinn slept around for coverage favors. But that was debunked
    • Nathan Grayson is the journalist accused of this unethical behavior. He never actually wrote the articles he was accused of writing
    • Zoe Quinn was accused of doxxing herself. No evidence backed it up.
    • Zoe Quinn was accused of faking death, rape, and other threats. Further investigation had the police confirm that the threats were real
    • Zoe Quinn was accused of lying about donating DQ proceeds to charity. Charity confirms the donations were actually received
    • GamerGate first started donating to the charity when they thought Zoe did not. After the charity confirmed receiving the donations, GamerGate started harassing the charity and threatening it with legal action because they claim they "didn't disclose publicly" they had received donations from her (even though that is not actuall illegal). This is a charity is made up of volunteers and a part-time paid intern, helping people deal with depression
    • Zoe Quinn was accused of winning an award (instead of Papers Please) for Depression Quest because she slept with someone. In actuality, her game didn't receive an award, but just an honorable mention. Papers Please did indeed win the award. No evidence backs up the claim she slept with someone to get the....honorable mention.
    • Zoe Quinn was accused to have "deliberately sabotaged, DDOSed, doxxed, and shut down" TFYC because they were "competition" for Rebel Game Jam. When in reality she just ranted about them (and briefly argued with them) over Twitter about their policies (especially their trans policy, which was vague enough to be interpreted as something insanely extreme) and the site got temporarily overloaded with traffic. Apparently one of the project's sponsors pulled out over the trans concerns, but Zoe herself didn't do anything and Rebel Game Jam was never mentioned except as a imaginary motive for her imaginary crimes. The fact that she didn't remember how many times she tweeted about something earlier in the year was also supposed to be a scandal, somehow.
    On Anita Sarkeesian:
    • gamergate tried to claim that others were doing the same thing. No evidence backed up the assertion
    • Anita Sarkeesian was accused of doxxing herself. No evidence backed it up.
    • Anita Sarkeesian was similarly accused of faking threats. The FBI confirmed the threats were real, currently under investigation.
    Other:
 
Let's just lay it out there with no pointless dressing up: there will never be a time when a discussion about these Jeremiads will be considered appropriate. Never. There will always, always, always be a "but."

So fuck it. Let the whole thing burn.

Yeah, pretty much. I hope the above isn't intended as sarcasm. There is no suitable time to dredge the internet for things that make somebody look really bad and then splurge it on GAF.

It's the kind of thing nasty people used to do with letters cut out from old newspapers, usually accompanied by a blackmail demand. The internet doesn't make it any more respectable, though I'm constantly surprised at how many people think it does.
 
Speaking of baseless attacks:


This does not appear to be true. Again, do not post this kind of thing if it's unsubstantiated. "Somebody said it on Twitter" does not count as substantiation.

Frankly, if people would stop just posting whatever the latest thing is flying around Twitter, this thread would be less awful.
My apologies, when I checked in on that (in r/KotakuInAction) the current research had that as being a true connection.
 
People spreading rumours that someone on some forum somewhere said is true is how the whole Zoe Quinn thing and Phil Fish hacking himself thing started. Light rumours are whatever but I would really be careful about posting such damaging stuff without being absolutely sure it is true. It's better to not post the rumour at all than to post it and regret it after.

Everyone has to be really careful with this stuff.

Once it's out there, the damage is done. Many people still believe Zoe Quinn used her female parts for a positive Kotaku review or whatever.
 
Speaking of baseless attacks:


This does not appear to be true. Again, do not post this kind of thing if it's unsubstantiated. "Somebody said it on Twitter" does not count as substantiation.

Frankly, if people would stop just posting whatever the latest thing is flying around Twitter, this thread would be less awful.

Two questions. First, what is "KotakuInAction" exactly? Is it a subreddit specifically for Gamergate or is it one where Gamergaters have settled into? Second, is it only the bolded part that is unsubstantiated, or is there actually a some proof that there is a mod shared between both subreddits?

/ThePhilosophyofRape ? Such a thing exists. Good grief

Are you surprised that there are people with an interest in these things and a desire to justify it? There will probably always be a market for harming people for one's own pleasure. Forced prostitution and child pornography are still a reality in the developed world.

Or are you surprised that a popular website is not clamping down on it?
 
It's been a while, so I'll re-post the list:


  • On Zoe Quinn:
    • gamergate tried to claim that Zoe Quinn slept around for coverage favors. But that was debunked
    • Nathan Grayson is the journalist accused of this unethical behavior. He never actually wrote the articles he was accused of writing
    • Zoe Quinn was accused of doxxing herself. No evidence backed it up.
    • Zoe Quinn was accused of faking death, rape, and other threats. Further investigation had the police confirm that the threats were real
    • Zoe Quinn was accused of lying about donating DQ proceeds to charity. Charity confirms the donations were actually received
    • GamerGate first started donating to the charity when they thought Zoe did not. After the charity confirmed receiving the donations, GamerGate started harassing the charity and threatening it with legal action because they claim they "didn't disclose publicly" they had received donations from her (even though that is not actuall illegal). This is a charity is made up of volunteers and a part-time paid intern, helping people deal with depression
    • Zoe Quinn was accused of winning an award (instead of Papers Please) for Depression Quest because she slept with someone. In actuality, her game didn't receive an award, but just an honorable mention. Papers Please did indeed win the award. No evidence backs up the claim she slept with someone to get the....honorable mention.
    • Zoe Quinn was accused to have "deliberately sabotaged, DDOSed, doxxed, and shut down" TFYC because they were "competition" for Rebel Game Jam. When in reality she just ranted about them (and briefly argued with them) over Twitter about their policies (especially their trans policy, which was vague enough to be interpreted as something insanely extreme) and the site got temporarily overloaded with traffic. Apparently one of the project's sponsors pulled out over the trans concerns, but Zoe herself didn't do anything and Rebel Game Jam was never mentioned except as a imaginary motive for her imaginary crimes. The fact that she didn't remember how many times she tweeted about something earlier in the year was also supposed to be a scandal, somehow.
    On Anita Sarkeesian:
    • gamergate tried to claim that others were doing the same thing. No evidence backed up the assertion
    • Anita Sarkeesian was accused of doxxing herself. No evidence backed it up.
    • Anita Sarkeesian was similarly accused of faking threats. The FBI confirmed the threats were real, currently under investigation.
    Other:

Do you mind linking to evidence for your statements. It's not that I don't believe you; it's just that if I spread this information, it would be nice to have secondary information for support of these statements. I'm currently looking up the support of your statements as well.
 
The more I learn about Reddit, the more I wish I'd never heard of Reddit.
Unfortunate since there are some great sections that don't deserve the bad rap. r/indiegaming and r/gamedev are wonderful friendly subreddits, where I spend most of my time; never encountered any of the insanity that people slam Reddit for

Skimmed some of those /KiA posts, think I lost brain cells. People on the Internet are crazy
 
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