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[Professor Beef]

I was hoping that GAF, with its history of awful car and pizza analogies, would understand this one in a moment of irony. Silly me, I guess. Back to my salad.

 

[Malyse]

The best way to get your point across would be to just explain your point.

I find that analogies are almost never appropriate and almost always turns into a "that analogy sucks" discussion instead of talking about the actual point that was intended.



A link would be helpful in situations like this.

http://newamericamedia.org/2011/09/gamer-to-game-makers-wheres-the-diversity.php

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You missed the part where it's suppose to be ridiculous. Because it's completely fucking ridiculous.

So throwing out any ridiculous made up fantasy situation would have been acceptable?

It's a shitty analogy that isn't equivalent in the slightest. If the writer's goal was to just present a ridiculous situation that has no equivalent in reality, then I guess he or she succeeded. I doubt that was the intent, though.

 

[Gestault]

You missed the part where it's suppose to be ridiculous. Because it's completely fucking ridiculous.

This is an artful explanation. (I mean that seriously)

 

[Malyse]

Well the idea behind the article is that the author is trying to get men to walk in her shoes so that they may better relate to her. The only problem is that the story she presents is not one men can relate to. The story presented does not reverberate the way she wants it to and because of that, it isn't effective.

So it's supposed to be a bad, unrelatable story?

If you can't relate, Id worry more about a lack of empathy than anything else.

 

[itchyass86]

Actually it's real simple. Three question simple.

Whats the racial breakdown of protagonists of games?
Whats the racial breakdown of game players?
Do they remotely match?

I can only speak for myself when discussing this type of subject. While I appreciate your questions as they guide me into some critical thinking, I don't really find much value in the answers.

I'm a mut in real life and you'd be lucky to guess (correctly) the mix in nationalities that are portrayed by my skin, shape, facial features, tongue, cultural background, and so on. Despite all of that, I find this subject is a bit overblown. I find that I am not marginalized every place that I go because I trust that nobody represents me, and that I can only represent myself. It doesn't matter if there is a portrayal of race that relates to me, and it surely doesn't matter if there is a potrayal of race that does not relate to me either. In the end, it doesn't matter what race is being portrayed because I will treat all with the same level of interest or indifference. I will never be able to identify with a certain ethnicity/racial demographic. It is all just silly to me.

Now to make the connection to video games. I wouldn't care if developers started creating ways to incorporate varying portrayals of race and ethnicity in video games. Nor would I mind if that happened either. So if developers in this day and age want to continue using that overused Caucasian Male template for the main protagonist of many video games out there, then fine. That's cool. I wouldn't be able to identify with a coloured version of the male template anyways.

Again, I only speak for myself. I try hard not to offend anyone and I do realize that the world still has a many aspects of racial tensions to fix, but I hope nobody ever thinks that I am speaking for anyone else.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

A nice attempt. I suspect most people will miss the point, but still, good on the writer for trying.

Hope this writer doesn't get rape and death threats and gets called a SJW feminazi or something...

And there I was expecting a story about some trousers... called Dave.

Spoiler

It's the gas man!

Iunderstoodthatreference.gif

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

These comparisons always fail to point out the fact that the "backlash" is primarily from a tiny segment of the fan community and not from the developers themselves.

i.e. "I wanted a certain kind of jeans that the store didn't sell, so I went to Reddit /jeans and was told I'm a big fat fattie" which is a fair analogy (sorta)

instead of "I wanted a certain kind of jeans that the store didn't sell, and Old Navy's CEO called me on my phone and called me a fatty".

 

[harSon]

So it's supposed to be a bad, unrelatable story?

The viewpoints that it's analogizing are devoid of intelligence, morality and empathy in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

http://newamericamedia.org/2011/09/gamer-to-game-makers-wheres-the-diversity.php

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all that says is that blacks, on average, spend more time playing video games than whites (according to whatever methodology the study used). It says nothing about which group is buying games in the most numbers. Considering the population makeup of the country, I'd imagine that would be white people.

 

[Silky]

I smirked because I got it.

 

[NoCryingUntilTheEnd]

If you can't relate, Id worry more about your lack of empathy than anything else.

There's no need to personal attack. The situation females face amongst gaming groups nowadays is shit. People need to be arrested and the industry can only benefit from more women becoming a part of it. No woman should have to go through the crap they go through in the industry just because of their sex.

With that being said, this is still a bad story. I don't relate to it. It's silly -- and I get that. I get that it's meant to be silly because the reader is supposed to read it and go, "Wow, THAT'S what they go through!?" but I already knew that. Most people already knew that. If she was trying to make a relatable story, she failed. If she was purposefully trying to be ridiculous then she succeeded, but it also adds nothing because the easily observable reality is already silly.

 

[Malyse]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all that says is that blacks, on average, spend more time playing video games than whites (according to whatever methodology the study used). It says nothing about which group is buying games in the most numbers. Considering the population makeup of the country, I'd imagine that would be white people.

African Americans and Hispanics play and purchase video games more than any other ethnic group in the U.S.,

Literally in the first line.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The analogy isn't perfect because there isn't an existing direct equivalent, so she had to invent one.

 

[krioto]

So did this guy get any damn jeans or not?

 

[TheBaldEmperor]

If games featured only purple penguins as the main characters we could avoid all this frustration.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Literally in the first line.

Allow me to explain:

Blacks and hispanics may buy more games on average than other groups (percentage), but it says nothing about the sheer numbers.

If blacks represent 14% of the U.S. population and non-hispanic whites represent 64% of the population, whites can purchase far fewer games individually and yet their group will still end up purchasing a much larger volume of games than the comparatively more active black game-purchasing population.

 

[Malyse]

These comparisons always fail to point out the fact that the "backlash" is primarily from a tiny segment of the fan community and not from the developers themselves.

i.e. "I wanted a certain kind of jeans that the store didn't sell, so I went to Reddit /jeans and was told I'm a big fat fattie" which is a fair analogy (sorta)

instead of "I wanted a certain kind of jeans that the store didn't sell, and Old Navy's CEO called me on my phone and called me a fatty".

Except

Each year the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences puts on a video game conference in Las Vegas called the DICE Summit. Last year’s event featured a panel discussion on diversity in games featuring Williams of USC and a host of other industry insiders. “What population do [the video game characters] reflect,” Williams queried. “The shocking result’s of our survey…is you make games that look like you. So, it’s really just a reflection of the industry.”

Another panelist, Navid Heirs of Raven Software, offered his own view, insisting the problem has more to do with risk management. “No real data exist that... shows that this works or doesn't work. We just don't know because no one's really tried.” Publishers and developers, in other words, are not willing to take the creative risks of depicting unfamiliar characters with explicit cultural differences

The devs aren't trying.

 

[itchyass86]

If games featured only purple penguins as the main characters we could avoid all this frustration.

Psssst...

 

[NoCryingUntilTheEnd]

Psssst...

I'm pretty sure that game would only make someone more frustrated.

 

[Malyse]

Allow me to explain:

Blacks and hispanics may buy more games on average than other groups (percentage), but it says nothing about the sheer numbers.

If blacks represent 14% of the U.S. population and non-hispanic whites represent 64% of the population, whites can purchase far fewer games individually and yet their group will still end up purchasing a much larger volume of games than the comparatively more active black game-purchasing population.

But it doesn't say "buy more games by percentage" it says "buy more games". Occam.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The devs aren't trying.

It's difficult to take creative risks in the mainstream big-budget game industry. Even if individual developers want to (and I believe many of them do), they get shot down by the people who control the money. You see it happen all the time in changes to character designs, for example.

In the indie space, you have far more devs trying more things from a creative perspective. I think it's best to try and boost these guys up and make them do well financially. That will have far more effect than just yelling at a bunch of suits to spend more money representing audiences that they think don't matter all that much in the grand scheme of things. We need to prove them wrong by creating success stories out of games that don't adhere to the same old thing.

But it doesn't say "buy more games by percentage" it says "buy more games". Occam.

Your quote said:

African Americans and Hispanics play and purchase video games more than any other ethnic group in the U.S.,

I think that any reasonable person would read that as a percentage figure, not a total numbers figure. Blacks and hispanics are more active game players and purchasers. Their total numbers are still much smaller than whites, though.

 

[Sentenza]

http://newamericamedia.org/2011/09/gamer-to-game-makers-wheres-the-diversity.php

maybe I'm missing something, but I just read this and I noticed two things:
1- it talks just about the USA.
2- it states that black and hispanic people play more time on the average, but I didn't spot any line about what percentage of the market they represent as buyers.

Literally in the first line.

Once again, that's just a statement that they buy more on average (and with no hard numbers, I should note); it doesn't tell anything about what percentage of the market they represent.

 

[Malyse]

It's difficult to take creative risks in the mainstream big-budget game industry. Even if individual developers want to (and I believe many of them do), they get shot down by the people who control the money. You see it happen all the time in changes to character designs, for example.

In the indie space, you have far more devs trying more things from a creative perspective. I think it's best to try and boost these guys up and make them do well financially. That will have far more effect than just yelling at a bunch of suits to spend more money representing audiences that they think don't matter all that much in the grand scheme of things. We need to prove them wrong by creating success stories out of games that don't adhere to the same old thing.



Your quote said:



I think that any reasonable person would read that as a percentage figure, not a total numbers figure. Blacks and hispanics are more active game players and purchasers. Their total numbers are still much smaller than whites, though.

This is semantics and tangential to the original point. There's no damn way that the make up of the protagonists in games remotely reflects the player base.

 

[The Faceless Master]

#Jeansergate

 

[CHC]

.... you notice all the posters of young shirtless men wearing the company’s jeans, their zippers open to reveal just a hint of junk with no underwear. This is not what you look like, and you suddenly feel a little self-conscious.

Uhh no I don't, I laugh at how ridiculous this is and go to the next store.

Nice try but ehhhhh.

 

[harSon]

maybe I'm missing something, but I just read this and I noticed two things:
1- it talks just about the USA.
2- it states that black and hispanic people play more time on the average, but I didn't spot any line about what percentage of the market they represent as buyers.


Once again, that's just a statement that they buy more on average (and with no hard numbers, I should note); it doesn't tell anything about what percentage of the market they represent.

Okay.

Let's say that Whites as a collective spend more on games than other demographics. Now what? What the hell does it prove? That Whites spending more on games means that they should be disproportionately represented in games in relation to their actual demographic numbers?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

This is semantics and tangential to the original point. There's no damn way that the make up of the protagonists in games remotely reflects the player base.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, and I would love to see more diversity in game characters, too, but your attempt to use data (a single study) to support your assertion thus far has been rather unconvincing.

Okay.

Let's say that Whites as a collective spend more on games than other demographics. Now what? What the hell does it prove? That Whites spending more on games means that they should be disproportionately represented in games in relation to their actual demographic numbers?

You sure are jumping to conclusions and putting words in his mouth. Where in the world did he say or even imply that the status quo is how things ought to be?

 

[Gestault]

This is semantics and tangential to the original point. There's no damn way that the make up of the protagonists in games remotely reflects the player base.

Ok, I don't want to be too harsh here, but you were wrong, and now you're deflecting and shifting the topic instead of recognizing why someone made another point. The original point was that games were produced to sell to the largest segment of the population. You suggested it was non-whites. Someone else pointed out that your evidence showed proportion, but not actual volume. If you can't even converse on your own topic in good faith, I don't know how you expect others to.

 

[harSon]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, and I would love to see more diversity in game characters, too, but your attempt to use data (a single study) to support your assertion thus far has been rather unconvincing.

You sure are jumping to conclusions and putting words in his mouth. Where in the world did he say or even imply that the status quo is how things ought to be?

What's the point of arguing against numbers of this sort then? It's not a secret that white males are disproportionately represented in games.

 

[Malyse]

Ok, I don't want to be too harsh here, but you were wrong, and now you're deflecting and shifting the topic instead of recognizing why someone made another point. The original point was that games were produced to sell to the largest segment of the population. You suggested it was non-whites. Someone else pointed out that your evidence showed proportion, but not actual volume. If you can't even converse on your own topic in good faith, I don't know how you expect others to.

What? No, we parse the data differently. I still think that the statement as stated stands but that's not the fucking point. Please refrain from derailing this thread further.

 

[Gestault]

What? No, we parse the data differently. I still think that the statement as stated stands but that's not the fucking point. Please refrain from derailing this thread further.

I'm talking about the substance of the discussion. Cursing at me isn't really productive, and I've been on-topic and well-meaning in every post.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

What's the point of arguing against numbers of this sort then? It's not a secret that white males are disproportionately represented in games.

I think the original question was whether or not it is actually true that whites are disproportionately represented in games, and, if so, to what degree.

Without hard data showing the demographics of total game purchasers vs. the percentage of games that feature a white male protagonist, it's rather hard to say.

Or we could all just argue from gut feeling and suspicion. That always leads to fun times.

What? No, we parse the data differently. I still think that the statement as stated stands but that's not the fucking point. Please refrain from derailing this thread further.

What data? All I can see is that you're interpreting a quote from the summary of a study in a way that can be described only as "stretching."

 

[DeviantBoi]

Is there supposed to be only one brand of jeans in that story?

It's ridiculous that the most logical suggestion isn't given: "Don't buy from them; buy from this other brand."

 

[Malyse]

I'm talking about the substance of the discussion. Cursing at me isn't really productive, and I've been on-topic and well-meaning in every post.

A. I'm not cursing at you. Take some time to observe my post history.
B. We were getting off track. I put us back on. If you want to dismantle that article, feel free to make a thread to discuss it. This isn't going to be it.

 

[LaserBuddha]

What's the point of arguing against numbers of this sort then? It's not a secret that white males are disproportionately represented in games.

I side 100% with what the article is trying to say, but some of its leaps of logic were highly suspect. Im 100% positive that the low rate of representation of minorities in games is not in line with the higher rate at which they buy games, but using a study of how much time is dedicated each day to gaming is in no way whatsoever supportive of a conclusion about who is buying games at what rate. Completely different things.

 

[TheBaldEmperor]

Psssst...

All games! Just a few doesn't cut it!

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=909158

 

[ArjanN]

Wait, I'm confused about this analogy. So the cops knew that internal affairs were setting them up?

 

[harSon]

I think the original question was whether or not it is actually true that whites are disproportionately represented in games, and, if so, to what degree.

Without hard data showing the demographics of total game purchasers vs. the percentage of games that feature a white male protagonist, it's rather hard to say.

Or we could all just argue from gut feeling and suspicion. That always leads to fun times.

It's a shame that there aren't too many studies regarding it, but you honestly believe that if we were to remove sports games and games utilizing character creation tools, that white males characters are not over represented? Especially within AAA titles? And especially when talking about the main protagonist?

It's kind of disingenuous to reduce it to a gut feeling or suspicion. White males are over represented within movies. They're over represented within television. They're over represented within media/advertisements. They're over represented within books and comics. Sift through games slated to release over the next year and get back to me. I 100% guarantee it's in line with its contemporaries in media. I bet you white males are over represented. Minorities are under represented. And non-human characters are better represented than minorities.

 

[Sentenza]

Okay.

Let's say that Whites as a collective spend more on games than other demographics. Now what? What the hell does it prove? That Whites spending more on games means that they should be disproportionately represented in games in relation to their actual demographic numbers?

Uh, because the point is *precisely* understanding IF they are actually "disproportionately represented" and to what extent?

Not to mention i already wrote this in the first page of this very thread:

That said, as far as I'm concerned more diversity in terms of gender and ethnicity would be absolutely welcome even in a hypothetical scenario with an audience made by a 100% of white people.

So I'm not sure why are you asking me (with a patronizing rhetoric question, no less) something I already answered.

 

[Malyse]

It's a shame that there aren't too many studies regarding it, but you honestly believe that if we were to remove sports games and games utilizing character creation tools, that white males characters are not over represented? Especially within AAA titles? And especially when talking about the main protagonist?

It's kind of disingenuous to reduce it to a gut feeling or suspicion. White males are over represented within movies. They're over represented within television. They're over represented within media/advertisements. They're over represented within books and comics. Sift through games slated to release over the next year and get back to me. I 100% guarantee it's in line with its contemporaries in media. I bet you white males are over represented. Minorities are under represented. And non-human characters are better represented than minorities.

Dev: we'll have a dragon!
Pub: fuck yeah!
Dev: and elves!
Pub: yeah!
Dev: and aliens!
Pub: nice!
Dev: and laser guns!
Pub: alright!
Dev: and plasma swords!
Pub: yes!
Dev: and the protagonist has a blonde lady friend in bikini armor!
Pub: I like it!
Dev: and the protagonist is a black lesbian!
Pub: I dunno. That doesn't seem realistic. Have you considered a white male? Our demographic tends to like white males.

 

[harSon]

Uh, because the point is *precisely* understanding IF they are actually "disproportionately represented"?

Not to mention i already wrote this in the first page of this very thread:

So I'm not sure why are you asking me (with a patronizing rhetoric question, no less) something I already answered.

My apologies, I thought I was responding to Zefah.

 

[Slavik81]

Somewhat at tangential, but my experience shopping for jeans always surprises me. I'm 5'10", 155lb and getting a pair of jeans that fit me is usually really difficult. I'm almost exactly average male height and ideal male weight for that height, yet it's pretty clear I'm a fringe customer.

I can't even imagine what it's like for the people I know who are actually small.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

It's a shame that there aren't too many studies regarding it, but you honestly believe that if we were to remove sports games and games utilizing character creation tools, that white males characters are not over represented? Especially within AAA titles? And especially when talking about the main protagonist?

It would be nice to see more studies, because it's absolutely not about what you or I believe. That doesn't matter much at all. Like you, I suspect that more games feature white males than would be proportional to the game buying population. I do not know for certain if that is true, though, nor do I know to what degree it may be true.

It's kind of disingenuous to reduce it to a gut feeling or suspicion. White males are over represented within movies. They're over represented within television. They're over represented within media/advertisements. They're over represented within books and comics. Sift through games slated to release over the next year and get back to me. I 100% guarantee it's in line with its contemporaries in media. I bet you white males are over represented. Minorities are under represented. And non-human characters are better represented than minorities.

I don't think it's disingenuous at all. Without hard facts, it's nothing more than a suspicion based off personal impression. I certainly do not have actual data about who is buying games in the most numbers any more than I have firm data about just how many games feature white male protagonists without even any alternative options. Looking just at the "AAA" space, it certainly appears to be the vast majority, but I suppose a set of criteria would have to be defined in regards to which games are included in the study.

 

[Malyse]

It would be nice to see more studies, because it's absolutely not about what you or I believe. That doesn't matter much at all. Like you, I suspect that more games feature white males than would be proportional to the game buying population. I do not know for certain if that is true, though, nor do I know to what degree it may be true.



I don't think it's disingenuous at all. Without hard facts, it's nothing more than a suspicion based off personal impression. I certainly do not have actual data about who is buying games in the most numbers any more than I have firm data about just how many games feature white male protagonists without even any alternative options. Looking just at the "AAA" space, it certainly appears to be the vast majority, but I suppose a set of criteria would have to be defined in regards to what games are included in the study.

If it weren't so,there sure as hell would be push back and studies to show it wasn't.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

If it weren't so,there sure as hell would be push back and studies to show it wasn't.

That doesn't sound like a very reasonable line of thinking to me.

I just can't get behind your desire to decide that something must be true without first determining the reality of the situation.

 

[Malyse]

That doesn't sound like a very reasonable line of thinking to me.

That doesn't surprise me.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

Except



The devs aren't trying.

Yes they are. People just aren't buying. That's why devs aren't trying any harder than they already are.

This is an entertainment industry. There's no moral imperitive for equal representation of genders or races or creeds. If it allows a company to increase their consumer base, then sure, do it.

 

[akidnamededdy]

I don't understand, did that person learn how to make jeans?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

That doesn't surprise me.

Your thinly veiled attempts to demonize anyone who happens to have an argument with you in this thread are not appreciated. It really undermines anything you have to say.