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[KHlover]

In many states in the US (and in my state of Oregon in specific) you can register to vote without an ID so long as you possess a Social Security Number, something that is issued to you at birth / gaining citizenship. So requiring an ID after the fact makes no sense. You've already proven your right to vote, the ID requirement is an unnecessary step for a problem that doesn't exist.

That's just a number. Impossible to proof that someone using this to vote actually is the owner of the SSN.

Do you have to show this card before voting or do you just tell someone your number? In any case that's completely useless for verification purposes without an ID with a picture of you.

 

[AuthenticM]

Canada has always required its citizens to show identity proof when voting. Why is this so controversial in the US ? Is it harder to get IDs there ?

 

[numble]

Canada has always required its citizens to show identity proof when voting. Why is this so controversial in the US ? Is it harder to get IDs there ?

There is no mandatory national ID in the US.
If you move to Texas, you can do everything in life, including drive, open a bank account, without a Texas ID. A Texas ID isn't proof of citizenship anyway. They will accept a Texas concealed gun's license, this isn't proof of citizenship anyway.
They will not accept another state's ID to vote.
They will not accept a state-issue student ID card.
They will not accept a Department of Veteran's Affairs ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.
They will not accept a Native American Tribal ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.

You need to get a certified copy of your birth certificate (and this is another issue if you were born outside of Texas) to the Department of Public Safety to get an eligible Texas voter ID. About 400,000 Texans live 1.5 hours or more away from a DPS. You do not need this ID to do anything else.

 

[jchap]

I don't have a problem with requiring an ID. It's not difficult and its not expensive. I don't understand the casting of it as racist. It is insulting to any group to insinuate that its too hard for them to get an ID.

 

[marrec]

There is no mandatory national ID in the US.
If you move to Texas, you can do everything in life, including drive, open a bank account, without a Texas ID. A Texas ID isn't proof of citizenship anyway. They will accept a Texas concealed gun's license, this isn't proof of citizenship anyway.
They will not accept another state's ID to vote.
They will not accept a state-issue student ID card.
They will not accept a Department of Veteran's Affairs ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.
They will not accept a Native American Tribal ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.

You need to get a certified copy of your birth certificate (and this is another issue if you were born outside of Texas) to the Department of Public Safety to get an eligible Texas voter ID. About 400,000 Texans live 1.5 hours or more away from a DPS. You do not need this ID to do anything else.

Geez when you put it like this it seems like the people implementing the law have some kind of ulterior motive.

>.>

 

[br0ken_shad0w]

There is no mandatory national ID in the US.
If you move to Texas, you can do everything in life, including drive, open a bank account, without a Texas ID. A Texas ID isn't proof of citizenship anyway. They will accept a Texas concealed gun's license, this isn't proof of citizenship anyway.
They will not accept another state's ID to vote.
They will not accept a state-issue student ID card.
They will not accept a Department of Veteran's Affairs ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.
They will not accept a Native American Tribal ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.

You need to get a certified copy of your birth certificate (and this is another issue if you were born outside of Texas) to the Department of Public Safety to get an eligible Texas voter ID. About 400,000 Texans live 1.5 hours or more away from a DPS. You do not need this ID to do anything else.

See I would be all for a Voter ID IF it was easy and free. But this shit is basically the voting equivalent to gerrymandering (which unsurprisingly Texas does as well).

 

[sangreal]

Voting is the right of CITIZENS who are in some fashion participating in the counties social-econimic landscape. Its not unreasonable to expect proof of said citizenship in at least some form. That concept is sound. The process to obtain said identification is not entirely unreasonable, either. As some seem to be sensationalizing. Though I do agree it should be free, just as a social security card. Its just woefully unfortunate the catalyst is brought forth with such undermining and manipulative intentions.

Voter ID laws have nothing to do with proving citizenship. That's not their stated purpose nor would they be effective at that goal. They're ostensibly designed to prevent in-person voter fraud (a problem that largely does not exist). In reality they are designed entirely to prevent poor minorities from voting. Now, that's not to say there is a racist intent behind the laws. It's more about hyper-partisanship and disenfranchising democratic voters. As for the difficulty in getting an id -- sure, it's not difficult for a mobile young person with $20 and time to spare that needs an ID for everyday tasks anyway. On the other hand it could be extremely difficult for an elderly or disabled person who never had an ID and needs to get a birth certificate from another state.

Everyone interested in this topic should read conservative judge Richard Posner's recent reversal on it: http://www.salon.com/2014/10/13/gop...y_judge_richard_posners_ruling_is_so_amazing/

 

[Darknight]

It's designed to prevent illegals from voting. People claim they can't get a state ID and then cry racism.

Thanx for derailing the thread with your ignorance.

You realize thats FUD tactics from Republicans to their base? (because they are salty most Hispanic Americans vote Democrat) What undocumented individual is going to try to "Vote" in an american election? Its like him/her asking an ICE police officer for directions. Some of the people coming over the fence may not be the smartest educated people in the world but they know not to mess with its government other than Immigration services.

This is to target Black and Hispanic Americans. So thank those Americans for not letting Americans that arent well off have a chance to vote.

 

[massoluk]

I don't have a problem with requiring an ID. It's not difficult and its not expensive. I don't understand the casting of it as racist. It is insulting to any group to insinuate that its too hard for them to get an ID.

Felt like we are in Groundhog Day here. Did you read any posts in this thread before commenting. We even got anecdote from a gaffer having difficulty getting an ID

 

[alejob]

So the problem here is basically that they are requiring an ID for voting when it's not an obligation to have an ID.

There are many countries who issue an ID to its citizens when they turn 18. They will go to high schools and get the info from the kids. Even poor people have IDs. So if you are going to require an ID you should have a good system to issue an ID to everyone.

 

[Link]

Remember, folks: a gun license will let you vote in Texas, but a state college ID will not. No agenda here!

 

[TheExecutive]

I am all for identifying and saying you are so you say you are and you actually have the right to vote. You must be a citizen of this country and you must be 18.

If we don't feel like having people prove that they meet the minimum requirements then remove the requirements.

Would everyone be on with that?

 

[funkypie]

Is it really that expensive to buy some Id though. Those same people probably waste money on unessentials.

If you really want to vote you will know when the election is. Plently of time to get an id.

 

[br0ken_shad0w]

I am all for identifying and saying you are so you say you are and you actually have the right to vote. You must be a citizen of this country and you must be 18.

If we don't feel like having people prove that they meet the minimum requirements then remove the requirements.

Would everyone be on with that?

But then how are we supposed to make it harder for certain minorities and age groups to vote? Because that's pretty much the goal of this Voter ID bullshit in the first place.

 

[tanooki27]

sickening. poll tax is back.

 

[TheExecutive]

But then how are we supposed to make it harder for certain minorities and age groups to vote? Because that's pretty much the goal of this Voter ID bullshit in the first place.

Well I am speaking from a point of view of the basics of the voting structure. You either enforce or remove.

If it is hard for the poor or minorities to get licenses we need to figure out why and tackle that problem and fix misconceptions and make it easier for them to get licenses.

 

[numble]

From the Posner dissent on getting birth certificates (yes, there's no national or state system either, it's usually administered county-by-county):

Illustrative is the testimony of one of the six that she had tried to get a voter ID in 2005 but was told she could not without a birth certificate. She was given a form to send to Mississippi, where she had been born, to request a copy of her birth certificate. She received a response two weeks later that “there was no such person”—she hadn’t been born in a hospital and so there was no record of her birth. She is registered to vote, has worked as a poll worker, and had voted in the 2012 election.

A community organizer testified that she had tried to help another one of the witnesses obtain a copy of his birth certificate so that he could obtain a photo ID. He had been born in Milwaukee, but the vital records office had no record of his birth and asked him for additional documentation, including elementary school records—which he did not have, unsurprisingly since he is 86. He had voted in previous elections but will be unable to vote in the forthcoming November 4 election. The testimony of the other witnesses was similar.

 

[Casimir]

Please don't be condescending. I am talking about the registration requirements right now in those states. You don't need to resort to a straw man attack on a claim of "back in my day."

Are we now discounting the personal history of numble's five years spent in different states, living currently abroad, or do you live in a place were time is a flat circle? While you're simultaneously on your 30 minute bus ride to Walmart and recalling the event, can you ask Calvin Coolidge what he thinks about Hawaii?

Or maybe you could stop trying to claim I'm using straw men attacks instead of owning up to your unclear writing.

As a citizen, why can I not complain about new laws being enacted? Do you accept any laws that are enacted? That is a strange argument if I ever heard of one.

Since, you're asking me to restate the very thing I already posted. Do you need me to restate my points with different words? Or do you want me to expand on them with examples?

There are fewer restrictions under the FVAP than under these voter ID requirements. In fact, I filled out my FVAP application today and registered for an absentee ballot, I will receive my ballot to vote by e-mail. When I vote, I won't need to show Voter ID. My state has over 20% of voters voting by absentee ballot, so its likely that it will count my vote; in fact, it is state law to count every vote, regardless of closeness of outcome. So please do not be condescending about me not doing the research.

We might have a different understanding of what overseas means. Because I've been to places were their aren't labeled streets let alone reliable electricity, modern cities, and everywhere in between. I wouldn't assume that internet is always a reliable thing. By the way, if we are only considering developed areas, where does that leave your "I lived in a rural area where you needed to drive half an hour just to get to a WalMart or 45 minutes to a mall, and I didn't have a car"? Or are we ignoring that?

It's never been a particular interest to me, but I'm pretty sure email voting has to be allowed by the specific state, it's not a universal requirement. Actually, as I'm thinking about it, the two acts only cover federal elections. Also, last time I checked, the two laws behind FVAP do not force state hands when it came to private citizens. So, you must fall under the auspices of one of the better states.

It's designed to prevent illegals from voting. People claim they can't get a state ID and then cry racism.

...okay then. It's actually about disenfranchising registered or potential voters who fall into a specific party allegiance and one of two social brackets. But yeah...

 

[Kazerei]

Canada has always required its citizens to show identity proof when voting. Why is this so controversial in the US ? Is it harder to get IDs there ?

Because in Canada the rules are far more flexible. If you don't have a government-issued photo ID, you can use two pieces of other ID from a long list of possibilities, one of which must have your address. If you don't have something that lists your address, or if the address is outdated, you can have someone else vouch for you, as long as he/she lives in the same district and has shown fully proven ID.

If new laws were proposed to only allow government-issued photo ID for voting, it would be just as controversial in Canada as in the US. There already was a small controversy earlier this year when the Conservatives tried to eliminate vouching outright, so they had to backtrack slightly.

 

[Septy]

Why does having to show an ID to be allowed to vote open the state up to accusations of racism?

In Germany you'll need to identify yourself with a "amtlicher Lichtbildausweis" (closest translattion would probably be "state issued Photo ID"), no other documents accepted. Makes sense for an official vote, doesn't it?

Context? History? Many of these places have to have any changes to their electoral procedures approved by the US Justice Department. Why? Because they wouldn't stop making up rules to fuck over black people. Impossible tests would be set, fees required and outright intimidation.

If you're poor in America, you don't get any time off. If you're working a low paying job, you're risking your job by taking any time off. And even then, if you can scrape up enough money (which may not be possible). Republican administrations will do their very best to make it hard for you. DMVs will open 9-5 weekdays only, or they'll just close any branches near poor areas and force you to travel long distances.

 

[The Technomancer]

Because in Canada the rules are far more flexible. If you don't have a government-issued photo ID, you can use two pieces of other ID from a long list of possibilities, one of which must have your address. If you don't have something that lists your address, or if the address is outdated, you can have someone else vouch for you, as long as he/she lives in the same district and has shown fully proven ID.

This is how it works in a fair amount of the US as well. Minnesota for sure

No-one is advocating that a dude in a trenchcoat and a set of groucho glasses should be able to walk up to the table and say "I'm Anna Finkel"

 

[Casimir]

Context? History? Many of these places have to have any changes to their electoral procedures approved by the US Justice Department. Why? Because they wouldn't stop making up rules to fuck over black people. Impossible tests would be set, fees required and outright intimidation.

Not anymore.


Fun fact:

Parts of California were on the list.

 

[Angelus Errare]

There is no mandatory national ID in the US.
If you move to Texas, you can do everything in life, including drive, open a bank account, without a Texas ID. A Texas ID isn't proof of citizenship anyway. They will accept a Texas concealed gun's license, this isn't proof of citizenship anyway.
They will not accept another state's ID to vote.
They will not accept a state-issue student ID card.
They will not accept a Department of Veteran's Affairs ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.
They will not accept a Native American Tribal ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.

You need to get a certified copy of your birth certificate (and this is another issue if you were born outside of Texas) to the Department of Public Safety to get an eligible Texas voter ID. About 400,000 Texans live 1.5 hours or more away from a DPS. You do not need this ID to do anything else.

It's like this for many states. To get this super specific ID is even more shit. They require you to get...a "valid ID".

That's right people, you need a "valid ID" that they don't allow you to use to vote in order to get an specific ID that allows you to vote. What does these specific IDs have on them? Your picture, address and DOB.

 

[numble]

Are we now discounting the personal history of numble's five years spent in different states, living currently abroad, or do you live in a place were time is a flat circle? While you're simultaneously on your 30 minute bus ride to Walmart and recalling the event, can you ask Calvin Coolidge what he thinks about Hawaii?

Or maybe you could stop trying to claim I'm using straw men attacks instead of owning up to your unclear writing.



Since, you're asking me to restate the very thing I already posted. Do you need me to restate my points with different words? Or do you want me to expand on them with examples?



We might have a different understanding of what overseas means. Because I've been to places were their aren't labeled streets let alone reliable electricity, modern cities, and everywhere in between. I wouldn't assume that internet is always a reliable thing. By the way, if we are only considering developed areas, where does that leave your "I lived in a rural area where you needed to drive half an hour just to get to a WalMart or 45 minutes to a mall, and I didn't have a car"? Or are we ignoring that?

It's never been a particular interest to me, but I'm pretty sure email voting has to be allowed by the specific state, it's not a universal requirement. Actually, as I'm thinking about it, the two acts only cover federal elections. Also, last time I checked, the two laws behind FVAP do not force state hands when it came to private citizens. So, you must fall under the auspices of one of the better states.

What? How is it unclear?

I said I lived in 5 states in 5 years, this is true. The laws for registration in those 5 states are the same, so I am not resorting to a "back in my day" argument, the rules are the same.

The rural area was far away from a DMV, but polling locations are in walking distance. The state doesn't wash its hands and force 8000 people to go far away to vote. You can register to vote by sending in a card.

Every state must send a e-mail ballot to overseas voters under the FVAP (or more specifically, MOVE and UOCAVA). I don't know what you mean by "private citizens." It does not matter if it is a private citizen that is in the military or not.

Please stop with the condescending statements.

 

[BigDug13]

There is no mandatory national ID in the US.
If you move to Texas, you can do everything in life, including drive, open a bank account, without a Texas ID. A Texas ID isn't proof of citizenship anyway. They will accept a Texas concealed gun's license, this isn't proof of citizenship anyway.
They will not accept another state's ID to vote.
They will not accept a state-issue student ID card.
They will not accept a Department of Veteran's Affairs ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.
They will not accept a Native American Tribal ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.

You need to get a certified copy of your birth certificate (and this is another issue if you were born outside of Texas) to the Department of Public Safety to get an eligible Texas voter ID. About 400,000 Texans live 1.5 hours or more away from a DPS. You do not need this ID to do anything else.

My retired military ID card, the card that let's me buy beer, cigarettes, and can be used as any other form of valid ID is not good enough to let me vote based on these laws? So, what is this law accomplishing when it comes to restricting voter fraud exactly? Seems to me like it's simply trying to restrict otherwise eligible people from voting.

 

[Casimir]

It's like this for many states. To get this super specific ID is even more shit. They require you to get...a "valid ID".

That's right people, you need a "valid ID" that they don't allow you to use to vote in order to get an specific ID that allows you to vote. What does these specific IDs have on them? Your picture, address and DOB*.

You can use them to board national flights which puts them over the "polling tax" restriction. Or the lawmakers hope it does. The current court is a crap shoot.

*They also have an expiration date.

 

[Angelus Errare]

My retired military ID card, the card that let's me buy beer, cigarettes, and can be used as any other form of valid ID is not good enough to let me vote based on these laws? So, what is this law accomplishing when it comes to restricting voter fraud exactly? Seems to me like it's simply trying to restrict otherwise eligible people from voting.

That's exactly what it's meant to do. Imagine how much it inconveniences you to get valid card (think of time and how much you have to take off work). Now imagine poor people having to go through the same thing. Chances are very high they can't afford to take time off and wait...so they just don't vote.

 

[mugurumakensei]

That's just a number. Impossible to proof that someone using this to vote actually is the owner of the SSN.

Do you have to show this card before voting or do you just tell someone your number? In any case that's completely useless for verification purposes without an ID with a picture of you.

heres the thing. that number is what proves you are who you say you are to the dps for your id.

 

[sangreal]

You can use them to board national flights which puts them over the "polling tax" restriction. Or the lawmakers hope it does. The current court is a crap shoot.

*They also have an expiration date.

You can board domestic flights with no id, so that is a pretty low bar.

 

[AuthenticM]

There is no mandatory national ID in the US.
If you move to Texas, you can do everything in life, including drive, open a bank account, without a Texas ID. A Texas ID isn't proof of citizenship anyway. They will accept a Texas concealed gun's license, this isn't proof of citizenship anyway.
They will not accept another state's ID to vote.
They will not accept a state-issue student ID card.
They will not accept a Department of Veteran's Affairs ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.
They will not accept a Native American Tribal ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.

You need to get a certified copy of your birth certificate (and this is another issue if you were born outside of Texas) to the Department of Public Safety to get an eligible Texas voter ID. About 400,000 Texans live 1.5 hours or more away from a DPS. You do not need this ID to do anything else.

wow. Alright, I understand now.

 

[Casimir]

You can board domestic flights with no id, so that is a pretty low bar.

Oh yeah, the tsa just bothers you for a bit if you forget. I usually just bring my passport though. Much less hassle.

 

[Purkake4]

There is no mandatory national ID in the US.
If you move to Texas, you can do everything in life, including drive, open a bank account, without a Texas ID. A Texas ID isn't proof of citizenship anyway. They will accept a Texas concealed gun's license, this isn't proof of citizenship anyway.
They will not accept another state's ID to vote.
They will not accept a state-issue student ID card.
They will not accept a Department of Veteran's Affairs ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.
They will not accept a Native American Tribal ID card, which you need to be a citizen to get.

You need to get a certified copy of your birth certificate (and this is another issue if you were born outside of Texas) to the Department of Public Safety to get an eligible Texas voter ID. About 400,000 Texans live 1.5 hours or more away from a DPS. You do not need this ID to do anything else.

How about fixing this federally instead of dealing with this patchwork bullshit?

 

[Wilsongt]

It's pretty disgusting, but it's Texas.

I always loved the excuse "People vote Democrat because they don't want to work and want a free handout." Yet a large reason why the people affected by this law can't vote is because they work during DMV hours...

Imagine that.

Voting should be required by law and not as heavily discouraged. It's the one fundamental right that everyone should exercise and have a right to do, but is becoming exceedingly difficult for some because of these laws. Republicans know that they can't easily win elections based solely on their campaign, so they resort to gerrymandering and these laws to make sure they keep their positions.

 

[BigDug13]

How about fixing this federally instead of dealing with this patchwork bullshit?

That infringes on state's rights. Or something...

 

[Angelus Errare]

It's pretty disgusting, but it's Texas.

I always loved the excuse "People vote Democrat because they don't want to work and want a free handout." Yet a large reason why the people affected by this law can't vote is because they work during DMV hours...

Imagine that.

It's amazing how quickly people gobble it up too. I mean look at some people in this thread repeating the "voter fraud" spiel without hesitation.

 

[Casimir]

How about fixing this federally instead of dealing with this patchwork bullshit?

U.S. Constitution?

 

[Purkake4]

U.S. Constitution?

Ookay, not a constitutional lawyer or anything, but it seems a bit strange that states can set the requirements for federal elections.

 

[Joni]

I always find countries without mandatory ID card a bit strange. We have one you have to renew every 10 years, always have to pay €12. They're chipped so you can use them for electronic tax returns and other online applications aside from the usual stuff.

 

[Link]

How about fixing this federally instead of dealing with this patchwork bullshit?

I'm sure Congress will get right on that.

 

[Diablos]

One nation, under our bi-polar libertarian-leaning Supreme Court, with liberty and justice for some

Spoiler

especially conservative, wealthy Christian whites

USA
USA
USA

 

[Kai Dracon]

Growing up poor and homeless, I saw how very slowly many states made it harder and harder to do normal things while poor. Getting a state ID in particular has been gradually made slowly more impractical.

Simple truth is, the system kicks poor people in the head so much that many poor people learn to stay away from it, because it obviously doesn't want them there. That's why a lot of people don't have state IDs and have always gotten by without them, for example.

If it comes time to vote, and say, 3-4 weeks in advance a poor person learns voter ID laws have been created in their state to purposefully keep them from voting (because that's what this comes down to), even if they work at it every day they may not have enough time to get the required ID. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if one reason neocon politicians would oppose a national ID system is the fear that the mere existence of it would run the risk of instilling more of a sense of national identity in the poor in each state. That might lead to higher voter turnout from people who don't really like politicians that service only the rich.

 

[BajiBoxer]

What's the PC term for people in the country illegally, then?

Undocumented immigrant.

 

[entremet]

I always find countries without mandatory ID card a bit strange. We have one you have to renew every 10 years, always have to pay €12. They're chipped so you can use them for electronic tax returns and other online applications aside from the usual stuff.

Everytime a national ID is pushed the GOP fights it since they posit its a Big Brother law and they argue it should be under the States purview. Remember the Republicans have set up control of the Legislative Branch due to gerrymandering.

Obviously, the GOP doesn't want a national ID since it will undermine their clandestine poll tax *cough, cough* voter ID laws.

 

[Htown]

Is it really that expensive to buy some Id though. Those same people probably waste money on unessentials.

If you really want to vote you will know when the election is. Plently of time to get an id.

The lack of perspective is astounding.

 

[Angelus Errare]

The lack of perspective is astounding.

Hey man, why don't poor people simply stop being...poor?

 

[BajiBoxer]

Ookay, not a constitutional lawyer or anything, but it seems a bit strange that states can set the requirements for federal elections.

States rights vs. our national government has been an ongoing conflict since our nation's founding. We were originally a confederacy with each state acting as it's own mini-nation after we gained independence, and some of that sentiment has consistently been a part of our national politics ever since. It helped lead to a civil war and a number of odd and confusing decisions. Lots of people are very patriotic when it comes to their state, even when it's not a particularly rational stance.

Conservatives can be especially strange like this when it comes to election laws. You have a significant number who are ok with voter id laws since it plays into their fear of immigrants and paranoia over evil liberals stealing elections with their (mostly nonexistent) voter fraud. But many of those same people would probably be against a federal id because of their paranoia in regards to big government.

 

[BajiBoxer]

Canada has always required its citizens to show identity proof when voting. Why is this so controversial in the US ? Is it harder to get IDs there ?

Yes, it is. As has been explained earlier, the Republican party, which has disproportionate power at the state level due to gerrymandering, deliberately uses state id laws to target minorities and democratic districts by making it more difficult to get ids in these areas (or refusing to address ineffenciencies in this system).

 

[Metallix87]

Time to bring out the national IDs.

 

[wildfire]

Is it really that expensive to buy some Id though. Those same people probably waste money on unessentials.

If you really want to vote you will know when the election is. Plently of time to get an id.

Let's just ignore the expense.

Do you realize the law is about requiring a photo ID even though a photo ID isn't required to work in the United States and voter registration cards are given to everyone already?


As I said in another thread all this does is create an underclass who have the authorization to earn paycheck but can't be allowed to vote as a citizen.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Canada has always required its citizens to show identity proof when voting. Why is this so controversial in the US ? Is it harder to get IDs there ?

Not even remotely comparable, and not true anyways.

The list of documents you can use to verify your identity in Canada is much more extensive (including bills, insurance policies, student ID cards, credit cards, and hospital bracelets), and even if you don't have those you can still swear an oath and then go ahead and vote so long as you have someone to vouch for you.